The 2004 and 2005 Drafts - Foundation of Failure?

[Teflon]

Fair post Con.

Great we are loyal cause we like Bevo and know the family - excellent, have him over for a BBQ but FFS I want to win a flag before death so we need the best and cant get caught up in mates rates........its a professional sport...

[plugger66]

I think the record stands for itself. Bevo was shocking from 04-07. Shocking. He did better before that (with better picks). But if you want to take credit for the good years - you have to take responsibility for the bad. I'm pretty sure someone has done a statistical analysis on comparing draft picks with games played and we were on the bottom of that ladder for about 5 years. An appalling recruiting period.

I was disappointed to notice he is still employed by the club to some extent. I don't think we should be running an old mates/superannuation club.

If good recruiting got us into two GFs then to the same extent - shocking recruiting got us a spoon. You cant have it both ways. Last out of 18 is very 'last.' You have to be pretty bad to be 18th from 18. Lets not sugar coat it.

Simple comment from a simple person. Why was he suddenly shocking ? Maybe all the other clubs were spending more than the Saints. And if it was only Bevos fault why didn't it improve once Peake took over. Its a pity people like you are still allowed to post without thinking. Are you actually saying we only got to the GF because of good picks because I remember rightly Lenny was passed up by 3 Sydney picks as one example. Also you do realise Bevo hasn't been head recruiter for about 6 years. Its about money and we had bugger all. You cant all of a sudden lose the ability to see good players but you can lose the ability to have enough money to see good players all over the country like other clubs.

And Con you will be happy to know he retired at the end of this year.

[saintspremiers]

Bevo was great pre 2004 and an icon of our club.
It fell to pieces after that when other club's beefed up their recruiting budgets and our stupid admin stayed with 1990's mentality.

Perhaps blame Butters and initially Westaway's boards for their extreme negligence.

I know Butters wanted to cut costs as we were struggling to make a profit, so recruiting along with the whole footy dept suffered.

Westaway was "Footy First" and started to rectify it but clearly Peake wasn't the answer....you gotto throw extra money at the right people!

[hayes66]

Bevo was great pre 2004 and an icon of our club.
It fell to pieces after that when other club's beefed up their recruiting budgets and our stupid admin stayed with 1990's mentality.

Perhaps blame Butters and initially Westaway's boards for their extreme negligence.

I know Butters wanted to cut costs as we were struggling to make a profit, so recruiting along with the whole footy dept suffered.

Westaway was "Footy First" and started to rectify it but clearly Peake wasn't the answer....you gotto throw extra money at the right people!

In my previous post I have compared The Saints recruiting to Geelong's over the period 07&08. During that time, Geelong had better picks, but I think The Saints did ok in comparison.
I would be interested, if you would read that post and look at a couple of facts, in your hopefully unbiased opinion.

[plugger66]

In defence of Bevo which Im sure many wont but I will, he had no money to work with and he didn't have much help at all. Peake had more money but was even worse so I wouldn't be blaming Bevo but im biased as I know the family. Well most of them.

I get the feeling you don't like Peake much.
Let's look at the facts of Peake's first two drafts. 07 & 08.
This is what they have produced.
A premiership Ruckmen. (McEvoy).
A B&F winner (Steven)
A club leading goal kicker and the same player has kicked ten goals in an AFL game. (Lynch).
Compare Geelong's two drafts in 07& 08.
Geelong had no picks in the top ten.
Saints 1
Geelong 1 pick in the teens
Saints 1
Geelong no picks in the twenty's
Saints none.
Geelong 3 picks in the thirties.
Saints none.
Geelong one pick in the 40's
Saints three.
Who had the best picks?
Geelong over that two year period has produced.
One premiership player Taylor.
The others to mention are, Motlop, Brown, Simpson, Gilies, Taylor Hunt.
For the Saints a possible future centre half forward in Stanley.
So, I believe Geelong had the best picks and the Saints with harder picks compare well.
Taylor and Motlop are good.
Brown, Simpson, Gilies (delisted), Hunt (I think he has been delisted). Are very average players. Stanley is the best of that bunch.
Lynch is also better than them
Taylor and Motlop is better than McEvoy and Steven but not by a lot.[/quote]


Im not sure Peake was at the Saints in 07. I thought he was with us for 3 years and he finished after the 2010 draft. His record was terrible.

[hayes66]

I can guarantee he was there in 07.

[hayes66]

Can I have your opinion of the comparison between Geelong's and St. Kilda's drafting 07 & 08?

[plugger66]

I can guarantee he was there in 07.

So he stuffed our list up for 4 years. No wonder we are buggered. As for your comments on Geelong and Saints recruiting at that time, yep it looks much for muchness but why didn't you do all his 4 years compared to Geelong's?

[hayes66]

09 & 010 St Kilda appointed a list manager. Beefing up their recruiting.
Matthew Drain.
My understanding of the difference between Recruiting Managers and List Managers is, recruiting managers handle the young talent in and List Managers do the trading.
In 09 St Kilda acquired Lovett, Peake, Patterson and Smith.
I really don't think a Recruiting Manager would trade away his picks to acquire that lot.
St Kilda only had two live picks. 31 I think it was and 70+ something.
Not prime picks. They turned out mistakes. St Kilda did acquire Hutchings who is going ok.
So my reason for not including 09 as I believe the recruiting team were not given a reasonable go at it.
Geelong had two picks before St Kilda had a pick and multiple picks before St Kilda had a pick in the seventies. Unfair comparison in my view.
Regards 010 I know for a fact Ross Lyon was put in charge after Matthew Drain left mid year.
The recruiting staff were instructed not to pick talls only running players. Hence the list of Cripps, Crocker and Ledger.
Cripps is ok just, the other two no but once again Geelong had two picks before The Saints had one.
The other thing I have been told his the recruiting staff argued strongly that they wanted Darling but we're over ruled.
Can I suggest if you know Bevo so well, check that what I write is truthful.
One of the wrongs committed on this forum is the bashing of Peake and his work when it is never mentioned where his picks where.
The 07 & 08 drafts a case in point.

[plugger66]

09 & 010 St Kilda appointed a list manager. Beefing up their recruiting.
Matthew Drain.
My understanding of the difference between Recruiting Managers and List Managers is, recruiting managers handle the young talent in and List Managers do the trading.
In 09 St Kilda acquired Lovett, Peake, Patterson and Smith.
I really don't think a Recruiting Manager would trade away his picks to acquire that lot.
St Kilda only had two live picks. 31 I think it was and 70+ something.
Not prime picks. They turned out mistakes. St Kilda did acquire Hutchings who is going ok.
So my reason for not including 09 as I believe the recruiting team were not given a reasonable go at it.
Geelong had two picks before St Kilda had a pick and multiple picks before St Kilda had a pick in the seventies. Unfair comparison in my view.
Regards 010 I know for a fact Ross Lyon was put in charge after Matthew Drain left mid year.
The recruiting staff were instructed not to pick talls only running players. Hence the list of Cripps, Crocker and Ledger.
Cripps is ok just, the other two no but once again Geelong had two picks before The Saints had one.
The other thing I have been told his the recruiting staff argued strongly that they wanted Darling but we're over ruled.
Can I suggest if you know Bevo so well, check that what I write is truthful.
One of the wrongs committed on this forum is the bashing of Peake and his work when it is never mentioned where his picks where.
The 07 & 08 drafts a case in point.

He deserves bashing. His results were terrible and I don't by your guess work though I do agree the recruiter is only responsible for drafting of younger players. And I don't speak to Bevo to much about recruiting and I don't think I said I knew him so well.

[hayes66]

Sorry how were his results terrible? You have already agreed Geelong, acknowledged as the best in the business, where neck and neck with St. Klida's over the 07 & 08 period. Even thought The Saints had worse picks.
Where is the guess work in what I write?
Are you referring to terms like Cripps is ok just?
Or that StKilda traded for Lovett and Peake?
That Matthew Drain was list manager?

[plugger66]

Sorry how were his results terrible? You have already agreed Geelong, acknowledged as the best in the business, where neck and neck with St. Klida's over the 07 & 08 period. Even thought The Saints had worse picks.
Where is the guess work in what I write?
Are you referring to terms like Cripps is ok just?
Or that StKilda traded for Lovett and Peake?
That Matthew Drain was list manager?

Im saying it is guess work about RL telling them the type of players and even if that was the case there was no excuse for the failure that year. As for Geelong and the saints being neck and neck that all well and good but who cares. We were terrible for about 7 years and Peake was in charge of 4 of those years. He was a failure and thus sacked. And thank god for that.

[hayes66]

Well I am going to really upset you now. Peake didn't get sacked he resigned because of all the facts I have stated.
In summary I think we can agree that 07&08 drafts were reasonable.
010 seems to have upset you so he had in your opinion one bad draft.

[plugger66]

Well I am going to really upset you now. Peake didn't get sacked he resigned because of all the facts I have stated.
In summary I think we can agree that 07&08 drafts were reasonable.
010 seems to have upset you so he had in your opinion one bad draft.

Resigned? That was kind of the club. I think he was terrible every year but less terrible in 07 and 08. Are you John Peake? Or just a family member. I notice he is now an assistant. A job he is perfect for. Not his fault we employed him, its the clubs fault. He as with Bevo didn't have the money needed to get the most out of himself.

[hayes66]

No I am not Peake nor a family member just trying to give a balanced view on the period 07 & 08. Here is another fact. Under Ross Lyon's reign at Freo they have only had one NAB rising star nomination. Your response will most likely be so what because of your default setting. Which is Ross Lyon is a great coach and it is everyone else's fault when he isn't successful. A simple and flawed view, in my opinion.

[plugger66]

No I am not Peake nor a family member just trying to give a balanced view on the period 07 & 08. Here is another fact. Under Ross Lyon's reign at Freo they have only had one NAB rising star nomination. Your response will most likely be so what because of your default setting. Which is Ross Lyon is a great coach and it is everyone else's fault when he isn't successful. A simple and flawed view, in my opinion.

My response is what has that to do with supporting Peake. I have no idea why all of a sudden RL has anything to do with conversation or was the Peake thing just rouse to start another RL thread? Peake wasn't a good recruiter but not helped by higher picks and not the money other clubs spent on recruiting. RL well I couldn't give a rats about him at freo.

[hayes66]

The reason I mentioned that is because part of successful recruiting involves a whole club approach. That is a willingness, at times, to trade for picks. What the club is doing now. Under Ross's regime not one draft did we trade into. Traded out of every draft. Except one 010.
And I believe Ross had a part to play in, what you would call the terrible years of Peake's recruiting. From where I sit Freo is going down the same path as we did. There is one common thread here. Mr Lyon. He is a now coach and not into building a team or era's as Bomber Thompson did at Geelong.

[plugger66]

The reason I mentioned that is because part of successful recruiting involves a whole club approach. That is a willingness, at times, to trade for picks. What the club is doing now. Under Ross's regime not one draft did we trade into. Traded out of every draft. Except one 010.
And I believe Ross had a part to play in, what you would call the terrible years of Peake's recruiting. From where I sit Freo is going down the same path as we did. There is one common thread here. Mr Lyon. He is a now coach and not into building a team or era's as Bomber Thompson did at Geelong.

So as I guessed it was all about RL. There are other threads to bag him. This is on years he wasn't there. How about our trading and drafting in those 2 years he wasn't there. Was that his fault as well. Instead of making some weak argument about Peake why didn't you just come out and bag RL from the start.

So my simple question is how did our trading and drafting go in the 2 years mentioned when RL wasn't there?

[saintspremiers]

No I am not Peake nor a family member just trying to give a balanced view on the period 07 & 08. Here is another fact. Under Ross Lyon's reign at Freo they have only had one NAB rising star nomination. Your response will most likely be so what because of your default setting. Which is Ross Lyon is a great coach and it is everyone else's fault when he isn't successful. A simple and flawed view, in my opinion.

Well done. You are taking plugger's default position of being against almost every other poster on this forum.

hayes66 vs plugger66

Can't wait for the next installment of

(insert famous saint)66 vs plugger66

[plugger66]

No I am not Peake nor a family member just trying to give a balanced view on the period 07 & 08. Here is another fact. Under Ross Lyon's reign at Freo they have only had one NAB rising star nomination. Your response will most likely be so what because of your default setting. Which is Ross Lyon is a great coach and it is everyone else's fault when he isn't successful. A simple and flawed view, in my opinion.

Well done. You are taking plugger's default position of being against almost every other poster on this forum.

hayes66 vs plugger66

Can't wait for the next installment of

(insert famous saint)66 vs plugger66

Try humour SP. It can work.

[hayes66]

In defence of Bevo which Im sure many wont but I will, he had no money to work with and he didn't have much help at all. Peake had more money but was even worse so I wouldn't be blaming Bevo but im biased as I know the family. Well most of them.[/quote]

I commented on this topic because of the above quote.
I did not mention Peake first it was you.
Therefore to challenge your views on him I felt it necessary to mention the years he was in charge.
It would be hard to do other wise.

[plugger66]

In defence of Bevo which Im sure many wont but I will, he had no money to work with and he didn't have much help at all. Peake had more money but was even worse so I wouldn't be blaming Bevo but im biased as I know the family. Well most of them.

I commented on this topic because of the above quote.
I did not mention Peake first it was you.
Therefore to challenge your views on him I felt it necessary to mention the years he was in charge.
It would be hard to do other wise.[/quote]


And yet you had to get your opinion of RL into the topic. Even his stuff at Freo which actually has nothing to do with our club. You should have just found an RL thread if you wanted to bag him. And thanks for answering my basic question anyway.

[hayes66]

Yeah I think we are now starting to go around in circles. Like most debates end up doing.
My points are these:
One person is not to blame for The Saints demise.
The Saints tried to win a flag while its star players were in their prime.
This lead to short term decisions.
The short term decisions were a club decision not one person.
Peake, who you first mentioned, was in charge of recruiting young players and was in charge in 07 to 010.
He did not do trades.
In his time as a recruiter he recruited a Premiership Ruckmen.
A Best and Fairest winner.
A club leading goal kicker and a man you kicked ten in a game.
A potential key forward who can help the saints build their future forward line around.
A tagger who maybe good enough to help the Saints climb up the ladder.
And a solid b grade midfielder. (Hutchings).
This was all done when the Saints were trying to win a flag and there was a lot of short term decisions made.
You say he was sacked and terrible.
I say he resigned and yes made mistakes but was not terrible but did a reasonable job considering the circumstances.

[plugger66]

Yeah I think we are now starting to go around in circles. Like most debates end up doing.
My points are these:
One person is not to blame for The Saints demise.
The Saints tried to win a flag while its star players were in their prime.
This lead to short term decisions.
The short term decisions were a club decision not one person.
Peake, who you first mentioned, was in charge of recruiting young players and was in charge in 07 to 010.
He did not do trades.
In his time as a recruiter he recruited a Premiership Ruckmen.
A Best and Fairest winner.
A club leading goal kicker and a man you kicked ten in a game.
A potential key forward who can help the saints build their future forward line around.
A tagger who maybe good enough to help the Saints climb up the ladder.
And a solid b grade midfielder. (Hutchings).
This was all done when the Saints were trying to win a flag and there was a lot of short term decisions made.
You say he was sacked and terrible.
I say he resigned and yes made mistakes but was not terrible but did a reasonable job considering the circumstances.

Thanks for again not answering. Had enough now.

[hayes66]

Is your basic question, "this is all about bagging Rl."
Because my answer is no.
My position is my last post.