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It's a pretty absurd reference as I mentioned earlier.
if you dont get it - you will never will
its not just the literal reference but the loooong held mantra here that was used repeatedly to quell dissenting voices -
"...in Ross We Trust..."
It's a pretty absurd reference as I mentioned earlier.
if you dont get it - you will never will
its not just the literal reference but the loooong held mantra here that was used repeatedly to quell dissenting voices - "...in Ross We Trust..."[/quote]
Johnny Member wrote:For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.
In GF1 he coached brilliantly after half time - ordinary and predictable in the 1st half.
In GF2 he went back to ordinary and predictable.
I always felt he turned an incredible group of players into a dour, overly defensive and rather impotent team.
I think he's done pretty much the same at Freo.
I just dug up this old chestnut from not long after the 2010 GF which I thought was pretty interesting…
To be fair you did say he cost us a flag, but your only question marks about Ross are around his ability to inspire & fire up the players… no mention of tactics or players moves.
Clearly you haven't changed your opinions about the way he coaches since he left & I bet most of the anti-lyon people here are the same, Stinger literally said he loved him, now he can't coach.
Johnny Member wrote:Tactical geniuses and brilliant assistants don't always make for great head coaches though.
I'm a big Ross fan, but our heads cost us at least one flag. Tactics may have gone us there in the first place, but something above the shoulders was missing in at least 2 of the 3 Grand Finals.
Coaches need tactical brilliance, a great temperament for the role (Ross had both these) but also the ability to get guys to pick fridges up over their heads when they're only really capable of picking up bar fridges.
This is the only area that worries me a bit with him.
Maybe I'm old school (I'm only 34 so I hope not!), but I still believe the old 'who wants it more' adage reigns supreme.
These days, every club has coaches that have played or coached at other clubs, and players that have played at other clubs. Every club has forward scouts and detailed game plans etc. etc.
This stuff is crucial and a decisive factor in winning obviously - but in finals and particularly on Grand Final day, when you're up against the best teams who obviously have great coaches and solid game plans aswell, it often comes down to who wants it more.
For whatever reason, we've stumbled at that hurdle twice.
That's my only criticism of the coach. And it's not even a criticism really. Just an area that I think we need to get better in.
As for him being unpopular, I don't think I know one Saints fan who doesn't love him!
As for Robert Walls suggesting he should leave the club!!??? That says more about the character of Robert Walls than anything else.
Things get too hard and don't go your way, walk out?
Yeah right. I don't think that's how Ross Lyon works.
saintspremiers wrote:
And that's because some on here seem disappointed Ro$$y hasn't won a flag.
The rest of us - and I'm thinking the vast majority of Saints fans - are enjoying seeing Lyin and Freo in the mire.
He was clearly making reference to Ro$$y in his current role
Don't take the first sentence in isolation and quote the guy out of context.
If you want to make stuff up to suit your adulation of our ex coach that's showing how desperate you are. You seem to want to hang on to that greatness you felt when Ro$$y helped us to get second place.
Correct.
And I detest the thought of Ro$$y EVER winning a flag with ANY AFL team. Period.
i am Melbourne Skies - sometimes Blue Skies, Grey Skies, even Partly Cloudy Skies.
saintspremiers wrote:BM and samoht - when comparing Toss Lyin 2011 vs Twatters 2012 factor in also Twatters had a worse list (ie one year older).
But BM is right - we DID slide down the ladder in 2012 and debacle land in 2013.
As much as I hate Toss Lyin, he has some talent and ability. Can't say that about SW re coaching.
Quite right.
We did continue to slide down the ladder in 2012 - after all, we had 12 1/2 wins in 2011 vs 12 wins in 2012 (1/2 win less), but as JM correctly interpreted, what I was actually alluding to was the rate of decline in terms of W/L rather than the decline down the ladder per se.
I saw SW's first year as arresting or slowing the decline (or rate of decline) in terms of W/L - the ladder position varies from year to year, of course, with 12 wins usually meaning finishing outside the 8. Swatters did have a worse list, as you say (plus a decimated backline) - but still managed 12 wins (and a healthy 123%). Not too shabby.
Collingwood finished 4th in 2012 with a percentage of only 117%, but with 15 wins! We finished 9th.
SW is irrelevant - I think of it as some Joe Blow/sacked coach managing 12 wins in 2012 who went off the rails the following year, while RL remains very relevant - but despite this I'm not sure whether RL would have done any better in 2012 had he stayed on with us.
samoht wrote:what I was actually alluding to was the rate of decline in terms of W/L rather than the decline down the ladder per se.
Do you realise how insane you are sounding? The following year we finished 16th... So from 6th place we went to 9th then 16th
Nothing about that can be considered "arresting our decline"
And johnny, I'll take your silence about your 2011 comments as a complete forfeit from this conversation.
It just deflecting. He stated that Watters "arrested the slide". By definition that means he stopped the slide. But the slide went from a finals team to an also ran to 16th.
But suddenly it is he stopped the rate of decline.
samoht wrote:what I was actually alluding to was the rate of decline in terms of W/L rather than the decline down the ladder per se.
Do you realise how insane you are sounding? The following year we finished 16th... So from 6th place we went to 9th then 16th
Nothing about that can be considered "arresting our decline"
And johnny, I'll take your silence about your 2011 comments as a complete forfeit from this conversation.
Someone hacked my account back then....
Only joking.
You're being immature and unneccessarily antagonistic with that last comment. I've been on this site long enough to be happy to hold discussions and debates in a respectful manner, without getting too fussed about who's right and who's wrong.
Truth be known, I've actually got two sick kids at home with me so have only had limited free time today!
But If you want to be fair, drag up all my posts from 2008-20011 and tepost them too and we'll dissect them all at the same time. You'll get a clearer picture of my views.
No hard feelings, my comments were meant to be in the same bantering Vein of this entire thread, not antagonistic, apologies if you have taken them differently.
Basically I think a lot people who absolutely loved Ross while he was coaching us now claim that he isn't a good coach, your posts from then that I quoted reflect this although granted, you did have some doubts after we went 0/3 from GFs.
I couldn't see any of your posts prior to 2011 for some reason, are they under a different username?
samoht wrote:what I was actually alluding to was the rate of decline in terms of W/L rather than the decline down the ladder per se.
Do you realise how insane you are sounding? The following year we finished 16th... So from 6th place we went to 9th then 16th
Nothing about that can be considered "arresting our decline"
And johnny, I'll take your silence about your 2011 comments as a complete forfeit from this conversation.
It just deflecting. He stated that Watters "arrested the slide". By definition that means he stopped the slide. But the slide went from a finals team to an also ran to 16th.
But suddenly it is he stopped the rate of decline.
I mean really, he is fooling nobody
From memory, the decline in 2012 was in the fact that we could no longer compete successfully with the top teams, but had enough experienced players with hard bodies and know-how to beat up the lower clubs. And there was a higher than usual number of uncompetitive teams in 2012 (Gold Coast, GWS and Melbourne) which inflated our wins and seriously inflated our percentage.
On SEN the other day they had Dogs supporters basically saying they should have done what the Saints did and go hard at a flag while their list was close- reload with mature players. You can't really win unless you bag the prize.
gringo wrote:On SEN the other day they had Dogs supporters basically saying they should have done what the Saints did and go hard at a flag while their list was close- reload with mature players. You can't really win unless you bag the prize.
I think the trick is to reload with good mature players not s*** ones.
And what were the dogs doing back then? Surely they were trying their hardest to win a flag? Eade was an odd unit. He was trying to win flag based on a team of players like himself.
This discussion really has gone off in multiple directions... some quite interesting, some quite bizarre
My thoughts on a few key areas
Ross Lyon quitting
I don't think many of us begrudge him for leaving... people can comfortably understand a man going for the best he can get, especially as a coach in the AFL where careers can end quite quickly. In this particular case you can u/s a bit more about RL's decision when you put into context that he had some major financial issues and needed perhaps a bigger cash injection then what we could give him.
The only thing that really bothers/ed me about the whole situation was that given how much of a passion I thought he demonstrated for the club, the players etc and how much of a leader he was (and I mean that sincerely)... he not only did nothing to minimise the damage but he actually went a little out of his way to make the board/managers of the club look stupid and neglectful when the reality is that he himself engineered a lot of what happened.
RL was contracted for another season and knew an extension was coming... he stalled contract talks mid-season when the club was struggling IMO to leverage a better position and then painted the picture that he was happy, signed, sealed etc when he was in fact double dealing... it all happened a while back now but IIRC he happily let the club believe he was extending his contract and start to announce he had signed; then he pulled the rug out...
he didn't actually need to do that... it seemed unnecessarily ruthless - to make out as though the club jerked him around when it in fact was the other way round. He should have been complimentary of the club that gave him his chance and been firm that he had a good opportunity, new challenge etc and let it blow over
Poor Trading/Drafting
This is one that seems to get put on him a lot but I don't really know how much blame a coach should carry...
The Lovett trade was a debacle - he was exactly the type of player we needed but IMO we paid way too much overs for him... I don't think that that's RL's call - he identifies the type of or player he wants the list guys do the wheeling and dealing...
He wants Ryan Gamble, the list guys cinvince him there's a better option or they suck it up
The Game Style
There's been a lot of controversy about this over the journey
Personally I don't/didn't care if it was ugly or not... if we were winning games... quite frankly I'd be happy with 6 goals a game if it worked - people got a little fixated on it when we stopped winning which IMO is besides the point... that had more to do with a deteriorating list
I also don't subscribe to this theory that RL will never win a GF with that style or that it doesn't hold up under pressure, causes bad skills etc
What is it 7 out of 8 seasons in finals suggests that it def:
a) wins games
b) the players players buy into it
Don't get me wrong, IMO there are some deficiencies in his coaching IMO that contribute to his failure not to win the big one but I'll get to that later... certainly I don't think that the RL style is incapable of producing results or winning a GF but need some work though.
The lost Saints GFs
This argument has been done to death but nonetheless I'll touch on it again briefly
There are a lot of different frames of arguments here in both directions but I don't see how whether or not people's views are in hindsight or not is relevant to the discussion. We're not paid employees or full time workers for the club... if people were feeling excited, bought into what the club was doing, wanted to support the club etc and reflected after the game... IMO those arguments for the most part are still just as relevant... it seems to me that this line of argument is used to criticise those more critical of the coaching (especially in 09) but is really a red herring.
None the less key points
2009
I do believe that the coach was poor leading up to and during the 09 GF.
When we played Geelong earlier in the year at Ethiad (yes that epic game) several things were worth noting.
- Our big men dominated in dry conditions... Gardiner in particular played his best game for the club
- Despite opening up a big lead and making the most of opportunities... Geelong nearly ran over the top of us... that team had a lot of RUN and was known for strong finishing
- CJ our best tagger went to Ablett and did a good job but Chapman cut us to ribbons
- This was the game were Luke Ball lost favor and his ability to run was brought into question
Bringing this forward to the GF
- The game was outside and the expectation was it would rain... King and Gardiner were not liabilities but they were down on form compared to earlier in the season... IMO we went in very tall and run should have been highlighted as an issue but this wasn't addressed... I think it was a fair expectation that Gardiner was unlikely to repeat his previous heroics.
Considering they had Ball in the team who they clearly considered at least presented a difficulty with run later in the games... IMO they should have cut one of King/Gardiner, brought in a runner and alternated Kosi in the ruck... the point is I don't think we adapted to the team or the conditions... it may not have cost us the game but IMO it was an error
- CJ was our best tagger and went to Ablett and did a descent job... Chapman cut us to ribbons again and we seemed equally unprepared on how to stop him...
- Why Dempster was in the team as a forward I cannot understand... I know he wasn't then the player he became but maybe he could have gone to Paul
- A lot of criticism RE Zac over Max... IMO though I love Max and think he was a better player... it was too big a risk, he couldn't stay on the park for the majority of the season. I respect that decision. The only thing that casts doubt on it for me was that apparently Zac went into hospital a day or 2 b4 the GF... went on a drip... would need to know more about that.
- Andrew McQualter... people confuse Mini 09 with the lame a$$ crappy under performing player that played the majority of the 2nd half of 2010. The 09 version of this player had a very good season and deserved his spot in the team beyond a doubt.
The GF itself... I simply don't see an argument that RL coached well. The one thing that gets thrown over again and again is that we dominated for a 1/4 and a half in a four quarter game and that it could have been further in front at half-time. Whilst there's some merit to that point... if you actually look at what happened... no ifs, buts and maybes... all the good coaching was done by Bomber.
He moved Bartel to Hayes and Lenny was cut out of the game after a ripper first quarter
Taylor and Scarlett did what they do best in conditions that suited them opposed to our marking forwards
Chapman stayed open and exploited our lack of respect for him by cutting us up again
On our end... Raph was matched up to the wrong opponent, Ball as a midfielder played what 3 quarters in a team that lacked run... we kicked 2 goals in a half of football
2010
This was a different kettle of fish altogether... on the day I think RL actually coached us quite well but IMO on the day our stars were better and we had too many passengers... the heroics of Hayes and Goddard should not be underestimated IMO as they were close to 2 of the best individual GF performances of all time
2010 was actually the season I developed my misgivings about RL... over the course of the season he really persevered with some players that were seriously out of form or lacking fitness. What bothers me about this year is that people say RL sacrificed tomorrow for today. He persevered with a lot of players that IMO on performance, weren't holding their spots and they didn't contribute in the then.
Guys like Armo and Steven didn't play enough (queue plugger telling us Jack had OP all season and could only play VFL)... i'm sure there were others too but at that stage we had:
- McQualter had been average for almost the entire second half of the season
- Eddy never cemented his spot
- Dempster was still neither a forward, mid or back
- Gram was lacking match fitness and was ineffective
- Ray and Jones whilst not liabilities were waaaaaay down
- Gardiner was past it
Now don't get me wrong... clearly we couldn't have made all of those changes and to try and argue that is just silly but in the second half of the season... we needed to mix things up a bit more and try to address/improve in at least some of those areas.
Many people will point out to me that Ray and McQualter were instrumental in our comeback in the second half... rather than make a good point though to me it just highlighted the problem... 2 senior players that had been playing so poorly that we swoon over the fact that one of them laid 6-7 tackles in a half, and the other... again just for a half, had a good patch as a tagger... we're acceping good halves in a 4 quarter game..
Okay enough about that
RL as a coach
I think he is an excellent coach and IMO one of the best leaders our club has ever had... how he managed to keep our club on track despite all the adversity in 2010 (football adversity that is) is nothing short of a miracle.
He protected the players from the media and in addition to being the coach... also became the vocal face of the club and did it bloody well
He's also shown both with us and at Freo that he can produce results and get players to buy into and execute the game plan. I don't think you can knock him too much.
That being said I don't think he's a genius/guru or anything like that and when you consider stats like win/loss ratio and finals appearances... you have to factor in the lists he was given.
The 2007 Saints were clearly in decline. But nonetheless he was given a team that had finished what 4th, 4th and 6th the previous three seasons. Being the decent coach that he is... he tweaked the list, turned it over a little and gave us the team of 09 which despite falling at the final hurdle... was pretty amazing
Likewise Freo... when he took over, that club had played in a semi (IIRC) in 2010... again, the list needed to be tweaked... he did that and brought that club a long way forward.
No one, least of all me, is arguing that he isn't a great coach but his numbers really do flatter him as the lists he's started with are already moderately built.
Ultimately I think as a coach, he has one flaw that has cost him a lot
To try and sum it up...
He lacks a certain flexibility/adaptability. Ross Lyon teams are very structured and to a degree predictable playing very much to their roles and system which doesn't vary despite changing opponents and conditions and ultimately there is a certain reliance on their best top end players to win them the game... more often than not, if you curtail the influence of Pavlich, Sandilands, Fyfe, Mundy... or Roo, Hayes, Dal and Goddard before them... you win the game.
The second part to this... and this is where it gets harder to explain... is that this style tends not to be good for developing players. It designed for seasoned players, hence the need for recycled players or alternatively the young kids that are a step above that come in to a team and settle very quickly. I can't speak so much for Freo, but certainly for us... guys like Armo, Jack, Geary to name a few really tended to struggle getting into the team or playing with any level of consistency.
McEvoy didn't become our primary ruck until after Gardiner went down
Lynch barely got a look in with us and left
Looking further back
Schwarze was cut for being unfit
Brookes couldn't get a game ahead of Matty Clarke
I feel like if RL has a choice between a player with heaps of potential but isn't yet ready... whether that be physically or regarding attitude... he doesn't seem to have an ability to turn that around like you'd hope... he'll always play the McQualter
I worry about him at Freo because I think his premiership prospects rest largely on the shoulders of both Sandilands and the Pav... and whilst they have some kids coming through... I feel like they were in a better position 2 years ago... and they don't to me at least look like a Hawthorn/Geelong/Sydney type outfit that could stay up there
All those faults yet we nearly won both GF's with IMO clearly sides that were not as good as the opposition and no where near as good as the 2004-06 squad. By the way Wool wasn't cut for being unfit and Brookes ws avery ordinary performer. And didntGeary play a fair bit under RL?
samoht wrote:what I was actually alluding to was the rate of decline in terms of W/L rather than the decline down the ladder per se.
Do you realise how insane you are sounding? The following year we finished 16th... So from 6th place we went to 9th then 16th
Nothing about that can be considered "arresting our decline"
And johnny, I'll take your silence about your 2011 comments as a complete forfeit from this conversation.
It just deflecting. He stated that Watters "arrested the slide". By definition that means he stopped the slide. But the slide went from a finals team to an also ran to 16th.
But suddenly it is he stopped the rate of decline.
I mean really, he is fooling nobody
I'm not deflecting at all and I'm not trying to fool anyone.
For your edification - see 3. below!
arrest
[uh-rest] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object)
1.
to seize (a person) by legal authority or warrant; take into custody:
The police arrested the burglar.
2.
to catch and hold; attract and fix; engage:
The loud noise arrested our attention.
3. to check the course of; stop; slow down:
to arrest progress.
i.e. SW slowed down the decline or rate of decline! Johnny Member had no trouble and saw no inconsistency with what I said - because he knew the meaning of the word. You're trying a little too hard to discredit me. Just ease off a little - get off my case - and instead look up a word in the dictionary once in a while.
So much for your user name change and fresh start - nothing's changed! You still want to get your cheap thrills by putting people down.
Last edited by samoht on Fri 19 Sep 2014 8:51am, edited 1 time in total.
Is it? Maybe because it doesn't suit you?
20 wins (2009), 15 wins(2010), 12 1/2 wins (2011) ..... but then down to 12 wins and 123% (in 2012), I saw this as a slow down in the rate of decline. We're in 18th spot at the moment.
Is it? Maybe because it doesn't suit you?
20 wins (2009), 15 wins(2010), 12 1/2 wins (2011) ..... but then down to 12 wins and 123% (in 2012), I saw this as a slow down in the rate of decline. We're in 18th spot at the moment.
It doesn't suit me?
Why did you ignore the next year 16th - 5 wins?
Going by your theory Richo has also arrested our decline as we've only lost one more game.
Is it? Maybe because it doesn't suit you?
20 wins (2009), 15 wins(2010), 12 1/2 wins (2011) ..... but then down to 12 wins and 123% (in 2012), I saw this as a slow down in the rate of decline. We're in 18th spot at the moment.
It doesn't suit me?
Why did you ignore the next year 16th - 5 wins?
Going by your theory Richo has also arrested our decline as we've only lost one more game.
It's a solid theory.
Scollop got it earlier. Try a little harder!
The closest you can get to comparing the performance of a departing coach with that of a new coach is to compare the final year of the departing coach with the first year of the new coach. i.e., 2 consecutive years. So many things change year to year, especially when you're in decline (or conversely on the rise)
We were definitely in a decline under RL - we were a list in decline (we're now in 18th position and a percentage in the 60's).
So it's not really fair to make comparisons in declining years - as results are going to get worse year by year - nevertheless we managed 12 wins in 2012 under SW!
Remarkable - In fact I doubt RL would have done better in 2012, given 2011 (only 12 1/2 wins) and our continuing decline!
It would be equally unfair for instance to compare SW's performance in 2012 (12 wins and 123% and 9th position) with our performance in 2014 (4 wins and 60% and 18th position) under AR - just 2 years later - given our decline.
As I said SW is irrelevant - but it does put RL in perspective.
Last edited by samoht on Fri 19 Sep 2014 9:46am, edited 1 time in total.
samoht wrote:
We were definitely in a decline under RL - we were a list in decline
So it's not really fair to make comparisons in declining years
This sums up the inverse logic well.
Have you had a look at the actual draw from Watters first year?
In 2012 we gained Lenny Hayes our best player.
In all seriousness, have a look at the games in 2012... We had a ripping draw, played most of the poor sides twice but only had one win against a side that finished in the 8.
Those 12 wins included - 7 against the bottom 4
Suns x2
Dogs x2
Demons x2
Blues x2
Giants
Bombers, lions
And the one win against a top 8 side - Sydney.
Pretty sure we'd have managed at least 12 wins if Ross had stayed,
