Ross Lyon after today

[dragit]

Guerra > Neale

You do realise that Neale averaged 23.5 possessions per game this year - over 23 games - and that Guerra was on his last legs!

You do realise we are talking about the 2013 season/grand final?

Guerra has retired.

Neale wasn't even a regular in the Fremantle side, Guerra was picked every game barring injury.

If Guerra is your example of a poor bottom six player, you are struggling.

just stop it.

[Johnny Member]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

In GF1 he coached brilliantly after half time - ordinary and predictable in the 1st half.

In GF2 he went back to ordinary and predictable.


I always felt he turned an incredible group of players into a dour, overly defensive and rather impotent team.


I think he's done pretty much the same at Freo.

[stinger]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

In GF1 he coached brilliantly after half time - ordinary and predictable in the 1st half.

In GF2 he went back to ordinary and predictable.


I always felt he turned an incredible group of players into a dour, overly defensive and rather impotent team.


I think he's done pretty much the same at Freo.

got most of that right......i would put the improvement in gf1 after half time to the efforts of lenny bj and kossi......wouldn't be giving much credit to lyin .....

[samoht]

Guerra > Neale

You do realise that Neale averaged 23.5 possessions per game this year - over 23 games - and that Guerra was on his last legs!

You do realise we are talking about the 2013 season/grand final?

Guerra has retired.

Neale wasn't even a regular in the Fremantle side, Guerra was picked every game barring injury.

If Guerra is your example of a poor bottom six player, you are struggling.

just stop it.

OK - Neale was on his way up - he averaged 20 possessions per game in 2013 over 12 games - not bad for a developing 20 year old..
He's definitely on the way up (he's averaging 23.5 this year).
So ditto - if you think neale is a bottom 6!!

[samoht]

repeated post!

[dragit]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

Not stirring here but…

What parts of the game do you think he coached poorly in that 09 GF?

58 to 42 inside 50's would suggest that we weren't playing particularly defensive football.

[Johnny Member]

I think the Bartel to Hayes move by Thompson needed to be countered somehow to keep the advantage with us.

Lenny was burning, but a simple move by Thompson pretty much stopped him and we didn't seem to do anything to capilitise on them effectively losing Bartel.


Leaving Ball on the bench during the last quarter was staggering. There's never really been a plausible explanation given for that either.


But most importantly, his 'bomb it into Roo and Kosi' call in the last quarter to 'put them under pressure' was utterly amateurish.

It was so predictable, and wasted the huge momentum we had at the time.

Geelong built their defence on stopping the 'bomb it in' offence that had become the standard for attack. Teams were all trying to build attacks on talls with smalls at their feet. The popular strategy was to bomb it in. And it was effective. But one if the reasons for Geelong's dominance was that they built a defence around defending this - and then attacking themselves from it.

They thrived on it. And Lyon specifically instructed the players to do it!

At the time, watching the game, I was pulling my hair out watching us doing it! But then after the match when Lyon said he instructed them to do it, I was flabbergasted.

[Con Gorozidis]

With Taylor and Scarlett - Geelong had a good counter to the bomb it in tactic (both those guys are very good in the air).
And playing Dempster forward was an utterly putrid move.
But we had to do silly things like that because were a few players short of a full quality side.

[dragit]

He's definitely on the way up (he's averaging 23.5 this year).
So ditto - if you think neale is a bottom 6!!

He's becoming a very good footballer, but in 2013 he was in & out of the side - fringe - 2 games in the first 16 rounds - started the game as the sub - the epitome of bottom 6.

Who were Fremantles bottom six last year in the GF that you rate so highly? Above Guerra, Hale, Stratton, Puopolo etc

[dragit]

With Taylor and Scarlett - Geelong had a good counter to the bomb it in tactic (both those guys are very good in the air).
And playing Dempster forward was an utterly putrid move.
But we had to do silly things like that because were a few players short of a full quality side.

Agree, so it wasn't really poor coaching, but an attempt to counter a much more evenly tempered side for talent.

Agree with your points though johnny regarding the bombing long to Riewoldt has been a problem for many coaches… still happened all year in 2014.

[samoht]

He's definitely on the way up (he's averaging 23.5 this year).
So ditto - if you think neale is a bottom 6!!

He's becoming a very good footballer, but in 2013 he was in & out of the side - fringe - 2 games in the first 16 rounds - started the game as the sub - the epitome of bottom 6.

Who were Fremantles bottom six last year in the GF that you rate so highly? Above Guerra, Hale, Stratton, Puopolo etc

It's not that I rate them "highly" - it's that I rate them slightly higher than the Hawk's bottom 6, that's all.

Neale may have started off as the sub - but he still ended up with roughly the same number of possessions as Guerra in the final.

Neale had 32 possessions and starred in the final vs Port.

Obviously Freo has a very strong side - and a lot going for it. They also have a reasonable coach - i don't accept that he's a great coach.

You rate Hale higher - yet Clarke averages slightly more possessions around the ground - is quicker, more agile.

So it's a judgement call - and an opinion at the end of the day - and I'll stick to it.

[dragit]

He's definitely on the way up (he's averaging 23.5 this year).
So ditto - if you think neale is a bottom 6!!

He's becoming a very good footballer, but in 2013 he was in & out of the side - fringe - 2 games in the first 16 rounds - started the game as the sub - the epitome of bottom 6.

Who were Fremantles bottom six last year in the GF that you rate so highly? Above Guerra, Hale, Stratton, Puopolo etc

It's not that I rate them "highly" - it's that I rate them slightly higher than the Hawk's bottom 6, that's all.

Neale may have started off as the sub - but he still ended up with roughly the same number of possessions as Guerra in the final.

Neale had 32 possessions and starred in the final vs Port.

Obviously Freo has a very strong side - and a lot going for it.

You rate Hale higher - yet Clarke averages slightly more possessions around the ground - is quicker, more agile and gets more hitouts.

So it's a judgement call - and an opinion at the end of the day.

You can't take stats from a year later for your argument about last years grand final, which he was the sub and had no impact on the game.

Hale last year essentially has the same stats average as Clarke, expect he kicked 20 goals (46 shots on goal) to Clarkes 8 (11 shots on goal)

You still haven't listed these bottom 6 from freo last year that gave their side the edge to be considered a stronger outfit on paper?

[dragit]

I reckon that If Lyon went to Melbourne you would claim he has the best list in the comp… all those high draft picks and wot not.

[samoht]

I reckon that If Lyon went to Melbourne you would claim he has the best list in the comp… all those high draft picks and wot not.

Now that's ridiculous.
Do you have a problem with people having an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours - or that don't readily bestow greatness on coaches?

It''s got nothing to do with Lyon - and more to do with ascribing the right amount of credit or blame to all coaches.

I've said all I needed to say.

You should look at the total of goals scored by the ruck combination - maybe Sandilands spends more time forward - going forward to kick goals - and you should be comparing Hale plus other hawk ruckman with Sandilands and Clarke?

[Bunk_Moreland]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

Not stirring here but…

What parts of the game do you think he coached poorly in that 09 GF?

58 to 42 inside 50's would suggest that we weren't playing particularly defensive football.

Interestingly where most consider he coached brilliantly in 10, we only had something like 36 inside 50's.

Also I think, while he does deserve credit for the coaching in the second half on 10 ( Kosi into the ruck, bj and Lenny third man up, Gilbo up forward, Ray on to Swan) it only happened after Gardiner was injured and we were done four goals at halftime.

Circumstance and panic forced his hand. Still it was a bounce away from being one of the all time great coaching performances in the second half.

As JM correctly states, apart from Gilbo again forward, he reverted to type a bit in GF2

[Con Gorozidis]

Why doesnt anyone mention GF2?

You cant just pretend it never happened or imagine it away because it doesnt fit your thesis.

It happened. It was a real GF that counted for a real premiership.

The fact is RL was completely out psyched by MM in that week.

He cant be considered a great coach.

[dragit]

You should look at the total of goals scored by the ruck combination - maybe Sandilands spends more time forward - going forward to kick goals - and you should be comparing Hale with Sandiland?

You edit your post 3 times and still come up with this?

Sandilands is/was Fremantle's #1 ruckmen, Clarke is the second ruck forward. Total goals in 2013 - 11

Bailey was Hawthorn's #1 ruckmen, Hale was the second ruck/forward with Roughead more forward but occasionally taking hitouts. Total goals in 2013 - 99

[dragit]

The fact is RL was completely out psyched by MM in that week.

Great fact.

I don't think any amount of coaching was going to make us competitive in GF2 against a younger, fitter side who were the best team of the year, I knew that at as I walked out of the GF1 game.

I'm sure some genius's on here will have all the answers though…

Only poor kicking from Collingwood kept us in GF 1 IMO.

[samoht]

Sandilands is/was Fremantle's #1 ruckmen, Clarke is the second ruck forward. Total goals in 2013 - 11

Bailey was Hawthorn's #1 ruckmen, Hale was the second ruck/forward with Roughead more forward but occasionally taking hitouts. Total goals in 2013 - 99

So Sandilands doesn't drift forward at any stage to kick goals while Clarke spends time in the ruck?
How many goals did Bailey and Hale kick as a combo vs Sandilands and Clarke? Maybe look at that too - I'm not going to bother.

Clarke does a lot of 1% ers ... he's very fast and provides a lot of chase and pressure around the ground. I'd rate him ahead of Hale, who is having a poor year this year - and especially going forward (as in next year, etc.).

[dragit]

Sandilands is/was Fremantle's #1 ruckmen, Clarke is the second ruck forward. Total goals in 2013 - 11

Bailey was Hawthorn's #1 ruckmen, Hale was the second ruck/forward with Roughead more forward but occasionally taking hitouts. Total goals in 2013 - 99

So Sandilands doesn't drift forward at any stage to kick goals while Clarke spends time in the ruck?
How many goals did Bailey and Hale kick as a combo vs Sandilands and Clarke? Maybe look at that too - I'm not going to bother.

Clarke does a lot of 1% ers ... he's very fast and provides a lot of chase and pressure around the ground. I'd rate him ahead of Hale, who is having a poor year this year - especially going forward (as in next year, etc.).

Well in 3 or 4 years time you may well be right, it doesn't help your argument any here though.
Why wouldn't you count Roughead? Fremantles version of him was Kepler Bradley.
Their version of Gunston was - no-one.
Franklin - Pavlich

[samoht]

Well in 3 or 4 years time you may well be right, it doesn't help your argument any here though.
Why wouldn't you count Roughead? Fremantles version of him was Kepler Bradley.
Their version of Gunston was - no-one.
Franklin - Pavlich

Your basic premise is Lyon is a very good (maybe even a great coach, am I right?) - and you're doing everything to support that.
My contention is he's a reasonable AFL coach who has coached 2 great sides.
We only had 12 and 1/2 wins in his last year with us, a pecentage of 100% and were clearly on a decline.

How many wins would we have had this year under him - given our injuries, and where our list is at?

[dragit]

Well in 3 or 4 years time you may well be right, it doesn't help your argument any here though.
Why wouldn't you count Roughead? Fremantles version of him was Kepler Bradley.
Their version of Gunston was - no-one.
Franklin - Pavlich

Your basic premise is Lyon is a very good (maybe even a great coach, am I right?) - and you're doing everything to support that.
My contention is he's a reasonable AFL coach who has coached 2 great sides.
We only had 12 and 1/2 wins in his last year with us, a pecentage of 100% and were clearly on a decline.

How many wins would we have had this year under him - given our injuries, and where our list is at?

I'm just fighting for basic logic.

As you've suggested in the past, Watters is a better coach because he stopped the decline.

Freo weren't making even the top 4 before Lyon started coaching them, just a coincidence?

If Ross was still coaching us this year, I'd say we would have the same wins, maybe less… not sure we would have beaten Essendon & Fremantle this year with a defensive mindset.

He's a good coach, but I am happy he has moved on…

[saintsRrising]

My contention is he's a reasonable AFL coach who has coached 2 great sides.

Well they certainly were not great when he arrived at both. So why did they become great?

St Kilda was going backwards before he arrived.

Freo was known as a "weak" team before he arrived.

Both teams had talent, but lots of weaknesses. A good coach is what can make a difference in such a circumstance.

With the Saints my view remains that most St Kilda fans overate our teams that played off in the GF's under Lyon.

I mean look at the Swans at present. Their back-pocket is Rohan FFS. Now that is depth, that is a great list.

Lyon at the Saints also had:
* Crap training facilities (saints only moved into Linen House for 2011...after the horse had bolted)
* A dismal Board
* Probably the AFL's worst recruiting department
* Low spend on the football department

Talk about having to perform with one hand tied behind your back! Compared to other coaches of the better teams, Lyon had clear handicap to carry.

Contrast that with the other teams that have played off in Grand Finals in recent years:

* Top flight drafting and trading (St Kilda only was ok at trading)
* Big-spending football departments
* Superb training facilities
* Stable and high -performing Boards (Unlike Football Farce at StKilda) and CEO ( "Job for Boys" in Nettlefold!!)

The Swans have also had a huge salary cap advantage.

So what was the point of difference at St Kilda? = Lyon and his coaching.

In assessing how good a coach is one needs to take a holistic approach.

[samoht]

I'm just fighting for basic logic.

As you've suggested in the past, Watters is a better coach because he stopped the decline.

Freo weren't making even the top 4 before Lyon started coaching them, just a coincidence?

If Ross was still coaching us this year, I'd say we would have the same wins, maybe less… not sure we would have beaten Essendon & Fremantle this year with a defensive mindset.

He's a good coach, but I am happy he has moved on…

Fact: SW arrested the decline in his first year as coach - and we lost some very close games, could have finished with 15 wins.
Did he subsequently lose the plot in his second year - was he toeing the line in his first year, who knows ? Based on his first year result,
yes he showed up RL and took the shine off his "great" coach epithet - so regardless of whatever we may think of SW, I'll still grant him that.


A team in decline, is probably like a ship taking in water - so it might seem like we were still managing to keep afloat there for a while, but then when all resistance was overcome you just sink like a rock. RL also put recycled ballast in the distressed ship.

We're both happy that he's moved on - and I think he's a reasonable coach.

[stinger]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

Not stirring here but…

What parts of the game do you think he coached poorly in that 09 GF?

58 to 42 inside 50's would suggest that we weren't playing particularly defensive football.

how about forgetting to play ball for most of the 4th quarter ffs...........,and lyin admitted he just forgot.....that should do for starters...