Ross Lyon after today

[plugger66]

Someone post the popcorn emoticon,........

There's 25 pages here - the popcorn has definitely run out.

And that's because some on here seem disappointed Ro$$y hasn't won a flag.

Thwy will gloat if it happens - although I'm thinking that will be in a different league.

The rest of us - and I'm thinking the vast majority of Saints fans - are enjoying seeing Lyin and Freo in the mire.

Be interesting if a media site could do a simple online survey: "Do you want Ross Lyon never to win an AFL flag due to his attitude and dour game plan?"
I think an overwhelming amount of footy fans (not just Saints fans) would answer Yes.

Well I for one are disappointed RL hasn't won a flag. Unlike it seems a few on here I wanted RL to win a flag when he coached us. I think that first line by you sums up some on here. They seem nearly happy we lost so they can call RL a dud or any other word but a very good coach.

And the other thing is those who think that are is a very good coach don't start threads after nearly every loss or don't gloat when he wins, those who now don't rayte RL start a thread or gloat after any loss. Who are the immature ones?

My last point is there was no negativity or bugger all until he left us. Did you RL haters not see where the list was heading or are you that silly. Blind frddy could see it and it started in about 2004. Not sure RL was there then. Blame the administration for letting it happen because its clearly their fault. And why do the RL haters get upset RL left. Surely it should be a good thing he left but you are really pissed off he left us, aren't you?

[Spinner]

Someone post the popcorn emoticon,........

There's 25 pages here - the popcorn has definitely run out.

And that's because some on here seem disappointed Ro$$y hasn't won a flag.

Thwy will gloat if it happens - although I'm thinking that will be in a different league.

The rest of us - and I'm thinking the vast majority of Saints fans - are enjoying seeing Lyin and Freo in the mire.

Be interesting if a media site could do a simple online survey: "Do you want Ross Lyon never to win an AFL flag due to his attitude and dour game plan?"
I think an overwhelming amount of footy fans (not just Saints fans) would answer Yes.

I'm pretty sure the thread was started by a RL hater.... So I direct you to the opening post.

But that would be too simple - so continue with your theory. No need for credibility in it.

[Scollop]

Fancy claiming we were happy we lost in Gfinals! Are you for real. Are you still drunk on Kool aid?

The whole reason this thread has gone on for this long is because you and your apologist mates keep telling us how 'unlucky' he was and how great he is, and we keep telling you he fails consistently and his record in finals is average.

You keep going round in circles telling us that we should blame the club and blame the recruiters when everyone concedes that Ross has to be accountable. Other teams improved and went past us and won Grand Finals and where we as a group of 'ross lyon haters' (as you call us) concede that he had strengths you never concede that perhaps his philosophy of recycled players instead of drafting 'new' talent might have made the difference.

There were many voices (yours included) that could see what was happening at St Kilda and just because it started in 2004 doesn't mean that it should have been left to continue until 2010. Ross continued driving the recruiting strategy and it failed miserably.

I don't care how close he got...The legacy of Lyon is a sh!t list. You have an unhealthy admiration for a bloke that left our club list in a shocking state.

And please....don't be confused...It is a good thing he left, we're happy he left. I don't want him to have success simply because I think he's a sh!t bloke.

[dragit]

Fancy claiming we were happy we lost in Gfinals!

And that's because some on here seem disappointed Ro$$y hasn't won a flag.

[Johnny Member]

There are clearly some on this thread who refuse to acknowledge that there are people who don think Ross Lyon is a very good coach.

They don't 'hate' him.

They aren't 'bitter' because he left the Saints and/or the manner in which he did so.


They just don't think he's a very good coach, and didn't think so when he was at the Saints either.


It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

The most puzzling thing though, is why some are defending his honour with such gusto and attacking those who disagree. It's weird.

[stinger]

Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? Freo will crush Port/Rich next week and might surprise the Hawks in the PF, just as the Dogs almost beat us in 2009. Swans v Freo in the GF, who can say what might happen?

Not sure about that.."both port and the tigers are capable of doing the shockers over...they don't kick enough goals....Lyons curse....

There is no surer bet in AFL than the beaten Qualifying finalist defeating the winning Elimination final winner.
Check the records...I think it's only ever happened twice since 2001!

Hard to see anyone defeating the Hawks and Swans in the preliminary finals.

you might still be right

[stinger]

Fancy claiming we were happy we lost in Gfinals! Are you for real. Are you still drunk on Kool aid?

The whole reason this thread has gone on for this long is because you and your apologist mates keep telling us how 'unlucky' he was and how great he is, and we keep telling you he fails consistently and his record in finals is average.

You keep going round in circles telling us that we should blame the club and blame the recruiters when everyone concedes that Ross has to be accountable. Other teams improved and went past us and won Grand Finals and where we as a group of 'ross lyon haters' (as you call us) concede that he had strengths you never concede that perhaps his philosophy of recycled players instead of drafting 'new' talent might have made the difference.

There were many voices (yours included) that could see what was happening at St Kilda and just because it started in 2004 doesn't mean that it should have been left to continue until 2010. Ross continued driving the recruiting strategy and it failed miserably.

I don't care how close he got...The legacy of Lyon is a sh!t list. You have an unhealthy admiration for a bloke that left our club list in a shocking state.

And please....don't be confused...It is a good thing he left, we're happy he left. I don't want him to have success simply because I think he's a sh!t bloke.

correct......

[samoht]

RL got on top of the soft tissue injuries that were plaguing us during GT's years - that's one area that we definitely improved on under him.

All AFL coaches are worthy - you need to take into account their lists and where they're at at any given point in time and not just look at their W/L ratios in isolation before judging them.
Going from one strong team to another will obviously help W/L ratios - you need to adjust for that in RL's case.
Freo had 15 more team votes than the Hawks last year in the Brownlow - it's a crude indicator, but it shows they have a very strong team.

Recruiters are the key to success, followed by development coaches, trainers etc... coaches are just the cherry on top who curiously get all the credit when things go right and all the blame when things go wrong.

[Life Long Saint]

There is no surer bet in AFL than the beaten Qualifying finalist defeating the winning Elimination final winner.
Check the records...I think it's only ever happened twice since 2001!

Hard to see anyone defeating the Hawks and Swans in the preliminary finals.

you might still be right

Yeah...spectacular fail on that one!
After two in 14 years we had two in a week.

Oh well...On the plus side I am now proven right on a statement I made to a group of Fremantle supporters at 3/4 time of the round 18 clash when we were miles in front.
I told them that Fremantle had as much chance of winning the flag as we did. Zero!
They didn't believe me, obviously, but who's laughing now?

[Bunk_Moreland]

There are clearly some on this thread who refuse to acknowledge that there are people who don think Ross Lyon is a very good coach.

They don't 'hate' him.

Conversely there are some on here who think he can coach, but don't "love" him, but because they can see value in his methods are labeled apologists and Lyon lovers etc. Cuts both ways

They aren't 'bitter' because he left the Saints and/or the manner in which he did so.

Many are and reading back over the past twenty pages will confirm this. I understand from your post that you think that you may have been labeled bitter? is that correct?

They just don't think he's a very good coach, and didn't think so when he was at the Saints either.

I think there are a myriad of opinions on Lyon, from not being a good coach, to people being bitter about the way he left the Saints, to being disappointed that we didn't win the big prize in 09 and 10 and look for scapegoats to direct that disappointment, to others (probably like me) that area mix of all of the above to some degree or another.

Facts are he constantly gets his football teams to the finals and top four. Facts are that he has failed time and again at the final (or finals0 hurdle.

It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

Conversely anyone who thinks he can coach is put in the Lyon lover or apologist basket.

The most puzzling thing though, is why some are defending his honour with such gusto and attacking those who disagree. It's weird.

Honour? Defending his honour? No honour in dumping a club in the way he did.

My reading is purely on defending the sometimes simplistic scapegoating of Lyon and allowing players who let down the teams he has coached off scott free.

I would find it very hard to believe that anyone is defending some ethereal "honour" concept.

Strange comment in my opinion.

[Bunk_Moreland]

RL got on top of the soft tissue injuries that were plaguing us during GT's years - that's one area that we definitely improved on under him.

All AFL coaches are worthy - you need to take into account their lists and where they're at at any given point in time and not just look at their W/L ratios in isolation before judging them.
Going from one strong team to another will obviously help W/L ratios - you need to adjust for that in RL's case.

Recruiters are the key to success, followed by development coaches, trainers etc... coaches are just the cherry on top who curiously get all the credit when things go right and all the blame when things go wrong.

Freo had 15 more team votes than the Hawks last year in the Brownlow - it's a crude indicator, but it shows they have a very strong team.

Fair comment

[dragit]

There are clearly some on this thread who refuse to acknowledge that there are people who don think Ross Lyon is a very good coach.

They don't 'hate' him.

They aren't 'bitter' because he left the Saints and/or the manner in which he did so.


They just don't think he's a very good coach, and didn't think so when he was at the Saints either.


It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

The most puzzling thing though, is why some are defending his honour with such gusto and attacking those who disagree. It's weird.

It's not puzzling at all, it's pretty simple, most of those claiming to not rate Ross have completely changed their tune from when he was coaching us into grand finals and after he left us on poor terms suddenly he's just not a good coach.

[HitTheBoundary]

It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

Conversely anyone who thinks he can coach is put in the Lyon lover or apologist basket.

This.

25 pages worth.

[dragit]

Freo had 15 more team votes than the Hawks last year in the Brownlow - it's a crude indicator, but it shows they have a very strong team.

If anything this blows your bottom 6 theory out of the water as it shows that Fremantle won more games on the back of strong performances form a few players, rather than full team performances where no-one stood out.

Recruiters are the key to success, followed by development coaches, trainers etc... coaches are just the cherry on top who curiously get all the credit when things go right and all the blame when things go wrong.

Agree on this largely, though I think a good coach and game plan can manipulate wins where another coach might not.

[samoht]

Correction - Freo actually had 7 more Browlow team votes than the Hawks last year (not 15) - my mistake.

[Johnny Member]

Who are these 'most' you refer to?

I lose track of who sits where on this topic.

I'm certain Spinner is in love with Ross Lyon and screams 'leave Ross Alone!!' into his webcam with a doona wrapped around him.
I'm certain plugger66 is a lonely and bored man who will argue against or for anything if it means some attention.

The rest, I can't be sure.

Some do seem to hate Lyon once he left.
Some never liked him.
Some thought he was a great coach, now they don't.
Sons never thought he was a great.
Some like him, but don't he's a very good coach.
Some dislike him, but think he's a genius.


I'm not sure why there's only 2 sides on this debate in the eyes of people.

Personally, as per above, I think just about everyone has a slightly different take.

And barring 3 or 4, the most common view is actually pretty balanced.

[Johnny Member]

It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

Conversely anyone who thinks he can coach is put in the Lyon lover or apologist basket.

This.

25 pages worth.

Isn't that Saintsational in a nutshell??

[Con Gorozidis]

There are clearly some on this thread who refuse to acknowledge that there are people who don think Ross Lyon is a very good coach.

They don't 'hate' him.

They aren't 'bitter' because he left the Saints and/or the manner in which he did so.


They just don't think he's a very good coach, and didn't think so when he was at the Saints either.


It's puzzling why some on here are putting everyone who doesn't think Lyon is a very good coach in the same basket.

The most puzzling thing though, is why some are defending his honour with such gusto and attacking those who disagree. It's weird.

I agree. It is weird.
What are they protecting exactly?
Some weird notion that we really won the game in 10?
People crap on about the toe poke but we lost by 2 goals anyway.
People crap on about missed goals - but Ross sides always kick loads of points - always (for whatever reason)
People crap on about mIlneys bounce because it was at the end - but the pies probably got loads of bad bounces throughout the game - and noone mentions that that ball bounced twice and that the first bounce was a lucky one for Milney. That ball could have bounced fwd in Johnsons direction in the first place. When we get a lucky bounce its becuase we 'read it ' and when we get a bad one its because we were unlucky.

The fact is we werent quite enough and our squad/list relied on too few and wasnt sufficiently deep or developed to win a flag. We needed our 6or so big guns to get us across the the line. Kind of like Freo. They also rely on too few. Lyon cant build squads or lists and has a one dimensional game plan.

Its weird people are so passionate about defending the myth of his greatness.

The scorecard still reads 8 years - 0 flags.

Is he a good coach? Yes. Of course is he is.
Great - Of course he isnt.

I rate him alongside Rocket Eade.

[dragit]

Are you still drunk on Kool aid?

And this really shows your poor understanding of the situation here… what a ridiculous analogy.

As far as I am aware:

No SS poster have quit following the saints to barrack for Fremantle.

No-one wants Fremantle to beat St Kilda when we play.

No-one is that fussed if Lyon gets a flag or not. (regardless of the coach I would rather see Fremantle win a flag than another one to Hawthorn, Sydney, Collingwood, Essendon, WCE, Adelaide, Carlton)

Very few people would still like him at St Kilda

Everyone agrees that his game plan has flaws and has ultimately failed so far

Everyone agrees that his ability to develop talent from scratch is poor or untried.

Everyone agrees that when he left our list was in shreds - not everyone irrationally blaim's Lyon for 10 years of poor recruiting.

[samoht]

If anything this blows your bottom 6 theory out of the water as it shows that Fremantle won more games on the back of strong performances form a few players, rather than full team performances where no-one stood out.

It doesn't blow anything out of the water, dragit.
It's just that I saw the following hawk 2013 GF players, as being average - Ben Stratton, David Hale, Brent Guerra, Paul Puopolo, Max Bailey, Jonathan Simpkin.
This is my opinion of course - I just felt that Freo's bottom 6 were superior.

[Scollop]

And that's because some on here seem disappointed Ro$$y hasn't won a flag.

The rest of us - and I'm thinking the vast majority of Saints fans - are enjoying seeing Lyin and Freo in the mire.

He was clearly making reference to Ro$$y in his current role

Don't take the first sentence in isolation and quote the guy out of context.

If you want to make stuff up to suit your adulation of our ex coach that's showing how desperate you are. You seem to want to hang on to that greatness you felt when Ro$$y helped us to get second place.

[markp]

So this is still all down to 'good coach' vs 'very good coach' yeah?

[dragit]

If anything this blows your bottom 6 theory out of the water as it shows that Fremantle won more games on the back of strong performances form a few players, rather than full team performances where no-one stood out.

It doesn't blow anything out of the water, dragit.
It's just that I saw the following hawk 2013 GF players, as being average - Ben Stratton, David Hale, Brent Guerra, Paul Puopolo, Max Bailey, Jonathan Simpkin.
This is my opinion of course - I just felt that Freo's bottom 6 were superior.

I actually find it hard to believe that you continue to run with this…

Stratton > Dawson
Hale > Clarke
Guerra > Neale
Puopulo > Sutcliff
Bailey < Sandilands
Simpkin = Spurr, Suban

This is without acknowledging that Hawthorn's top dozen+ players were much stronger than Fremantles.

Lewis, Birchall, Lake, Hodge, Roughead, Gibson, Smith, Franklin, Gunston, Rioli, Hill, Burgoyne, Breust, Mitchell, Sewell

Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow, Pavlich, Johnson, Sandliands, Duffield, Pearce, Mzungu, Mayne, Walters, McPharlin, Ballantyne, Hill, Crowley

I'd love to pick a school side if you were the other captain

It's embarrassing, stop it.

[Scollop]

Are you still drunk on Kool aid?

And this really shows your poor understanding of the situation here… what a ridiculous analogy.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote in that post but you started off with a foot fault and I'm going to have to return serve.

Now that finals patterns are emerging for Lyon coached teams and increasing voices in the media are questioning the Lyon philosophy and Lyonspeak there is this unusual denial by some and this unwillingness to make Lyon accountable for Saints failures in the GFinals.

All coaches will sit down and review matches. I believe Ro$$y never reflected on how he could have done things differently leading up to and including the GFinals in his years at the Saints.

The problem with the apologists is that Toss simplified the reasons for the losses and that was swallowed hook-line and sinker. Many saints people never analysed and fully reviewed our finals losses in 2009/2010.

[samoht]

Guerra > Neale

You do realise that Neale averaged 23.5 possessions per game this year - over 23 games - and that Guerra was on his last legs!