Ross Lyon after today

[dragit]

...and if freo are top 2 next year I'm guessing people here will revert back to "he has the best list in comp" like they were last year.

Morabito, Johnson & ballantyne back fit and I reckon they trouble most sides... They still need to find a couple if players though.

If not the best then close to.
I still maintain they had a superior list to the Hawks, when they went down to them in the GF last year.
IMO, Freo's bottom 6 was clearly ahead of the Hawk's.

With Johnson, Ballantyne etc.. they will be an awesome line up again next year. Top 3 for sure.

Lyon is fast running out of excuses.

Also how much longer will the following be producing: Sam Mitchell, Brian Lake, Burgoyne all well into their 30's.
So if anything there's a greater need for the Hawks to go out and recruit.

At least you're getting in early for next year I guess...

But this is where you completely embarrass yourself regarding a basic understanding of the game. Hawthorn had a far superior list last year & again this year, with the bonus of a functional potent forward line.

[Old Mate]

Given where Freo were last year going out in straight sets is an underachievement. GC, GWS, Dogs & Port will well and truly overtake them over the coming 1-2 years. Net year I see Freo going out in week 1 of the finals. The end of an era?

[Bunk_Moreland]

I have no love or respect for Lyon.

Do you have a soft spot for joffaboy, at least?

joffaboy posts over at bigfooty.

That nic doesn't post at SS.

I do agree with joffaboy in that Tommy Walsh was a hack and never should have been gifted a game like some thought.

In that regard I respect joffaboy's knowledge on football over others.

[Con Gorozidis]

Lyon's philosophies are crap. He's not flexible enough and the 05 negate and strangle game plan of the Swans no longer cuts the mustard. You need to be able to score as well.

Like most egoists hes trying to build a team based on his image of himself. The same fate befell Rodney Eade. He was also considered a great coach for a few years trying to win a flag with a side based on wingmen before everyone figured him out. Lyon is trying to win a flag with a side based on stodgy working class hard nuts. Like Eade - Its not going to work.

[Con Gorozidis]

Given where Freo were last year going out in straight sets is an underachievement. GC, GWS, Dogs & Port will well and truly overtake them over the coming 1-2 years. Net year I see Freo going out in week 1 of the finals. The end of an era?

Agree.
Remember Freo just lost a HOME final. Before this year - a top 4 side hasnt lost in week 2 since 2006 and Freo have a big home town advantage. So lets not under-estimate this loss. It was a big loss. Has to be considered a failure.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Lyon's philosophies are crap. He's not flexible enough and the 05 strangle game plan of the Swans no longer cuts the mustard.
Like most egoists hes trying to build a team based on his image of himself. The same fate befell Rodney Eade. He was also considered a great coach for a few years trying to win a flag with a side based on wingmen before everyone figured him out. Lyon is trying to win a flag with a side based on stodgy working class hard nuts. Like Eade - Its not going to work.

Evidence is mounting that this is correct

[Old Mate]

Given where Freo were last year going out in straight sets is an underachievement. GC, GWS, Dogs & Port will well and truly overtake them over the coming 1-2 years. Net year I see Freo going out in week 1 of the finals. The end of an era?

Agree.
Remember Freo just lost a HOME final. Before this year - a top 4 side hasnt lost in week 2 since 2006 and Freo have a big home town advantage. So lets not under-estimate this loss. It was a big loss. Has to be considered a failure.

With Pav in the twilight of his career blokes like Maine really standout as the GOP's they are. Same with Dawson without McPharlin. Take those two old horses out of the team and Sandiland and even Mundy who is no spring chicken (I realise he signed a longterm deal - very Lyon-like) over the coming 1-3 years and Freo are back in the pack with an ordinary list. Fyfe will have his work cut out for him.

[saintsRrising]

It probably also reflects our woeful recruiting during his tenure with us & that Clarkson isn't some kind of pied piper of young footballers.

If you get good enough kids they'll force their way into the side, but Ross clearly has had a preference for mature athletes to implement his high pressure game. Port have taken hard running to a new level, with superstar finishers on top, it's exciting for football... I've always hated port, but I love watching them play at the moment.

Sorry I had to review and re-count (I made a mistake on that first count by reading the wrong column)

Hawks 2 RS in last 3 years
Freo 1

Hawks 8 in last 8 years


And
Lyon 4

So Clarkson is a pied piper and has 2 flags to show for it.
Lyon is a just a bloke who sticks by one team and one plan and squeezes the life out of it.
His 05 Swans suffocate plan is no longer up to standard.

So Con,

They say "love is blind". But is your hatred of Lyon "blind" too?

1/ Rising Star Nominees

The Hawks have had one of the most effective recruiting departments in that period in the AFL.

The last years of GT's tenure and all of RL's tenure the Saints had, with possible exception of Melbourne, the least effective recruiters in the AFL. The Blues were pretty pore too.

But yes it is Lyon's fault that he did not develop Howard into a Rising Star.....

I am still waiting for someone to produce a list of all this stellar young talent that Lyon wasted. I mean I am sure that if the talent was that good that some must have pooped up elsewhere? Can you trot out your list of the Lyon wasted young superstars?


Sure Lyon has not gone all the way. But IMO at both the Saints and Freo he inherited a good, but not great list, and in both instances has made them a better team.

2/ Gameplan.

Yes I agree that Lyon has not evolved as much as he probably should. However his gameplan now is clearly more attacking than it used to be.

Congrats to Hinkley

Let us not however in discussing Lyon miss out on giving Hinkley is deserved praise. The man deserves an out-perform rating.

But congrats too to their recruiting department. Wines at 7. Wingard at 6.

One of the key hallmarks of successful teams is good recruiting. Both kids and trades. As a good list is normally produced by an amalgam of both.

Hawks:

Clarko is a great coach. No doubt. But also their is a great recruitin department.

Cats:

I guess Bomber must have done something right. But their recruiting head honcho has been stellar.

Swans:
Longmire. Right place right time. Inherited a champion team, who remain at the top through stellar trades, but also an amazing string of great young talent. So good is their list now that Roan plays back pocket!

Yes they ave had a large salary cap advantage to get Buddy and others. But equally they have picked up players like Kennedy, LRT etc for not tat much.
Now Longmire cannot be a bad coach. But he did inherit a gameplan, culture, very good list and an exceptional recruiting department

PS:
I do not rate Lyon as a genius.
Good coach yes.
Abrasive coach yes
Always had good lists
Has never had a great list. Great players yes. Great list no.
A good coach is a key part of the success puzzle. But is not the only part. At the Saints Lyon had a dismal Board, dismal recruiting department.

[Scollop]

One of the best posts I read was made by Bluthy last year. I have reposted here for the enjoyment of all agnostics/atheists/bubble heretics (and the only edit is some bold type). Also worth another look for the closing sentence.

Making 3 grannies shows Ross is a damn good coach. But from someone who's only coaching was telling my little brother where to stand as I took speccys over him here's my advice for Rosco:

• -- Low scoring is destroying your premiership attempts. 1 goal to half time aint gunna win you the cup. God hates a coward.
  -- Is it just coincidence with the bad kicking - its happened twice in grannies for you. Fates punishes those who don't listen.
  -- That forward press means the oppo teams defence have no space. But also your forward line has no space either. Freo often looked stumped going into the fwd line.
  -- Structure Rosco, structure! You seem to have chucked it out for this juniors approach getting everyone around the ball. You have possibly the best CHF in the game playing as virtual ruck rover. Play him as a standard CHF. Structure will give you some space on the forward line and let you get some relatively cheap goals instead of having to grind every single goal. We have a spine for a reason - so we don't just flop around.
  -- Does your maniacal swarm exhaust the players mentally and physically and that saps their energy and focus for shots on goal?
  -- Do they feel their control freak boss breathing down their neck when shooting for goal?
  -- Do you have players on your list because they "stick to the system" rather than having class (cough *Dawson* cough). Class and skills shines through on GF day.
  -- Are players so obsessed in their heads with the "system" that they don't do the unpredictable or show flair. The teams that win grannies have a few players who do something extraordinary.
  -- Players like all humans need to express themselves. The system crushes individuality. Fight the system!
  -- 5 mins after Freo's amazing win against Geelong you were in their face no doubt telling them "Need to focus, don't switch off" etc. Let them switch off for a bit Ross! Get rid of the tension in that sapping game and enjoy the moment. They are humans not robots.
  -- Did they play their grand final against Sydney where they were brilliant in that first half? They looked a little ragged on Sat.

I think Freo will be thereabouts again next year. Maybe it was just a freak bad kicking day

But what is the definition of madness? Doing the same thing but expecting a different result.

[Con Gorozidis]

It probably also reflects our woeful recruiting during his tenure with us & that Clarkson isn't some kind of pied piper of young footballers.

If you get good enough kids they'll force their way into the side, but Ross clearly has had a preference for mature athletes to implement his high pressure game. Port have taken hard running to a new level, with superstar finishers on top, it's exciting for football... I've always hated port, but I love watching them play at the moment.

Sorry I had to review and re-count (I made a mistake on that first count by reading the wrong column)

Hawks 2 RS in last 3 years
Freo 1

Hawks 8 in last 8 years
Lyon 4

So Clarkson is a pied piper and has 2 flags to show for it.
Lyon is a just a bloke who sticks by one team and one plan and squeezes the life out of it.
His 05 Swans suffocate plan is no longer up to standard.

So Con,

They say "love is blind". But is your hatred of Lyon "blind" too?

1/ Rising Star Nominees

The Hawks have had one of the most effective recruiting departments in that period in the AFL.

The last years of GT's tenure and all of RL's tenure the Saints had, with possible exception of Melbourne, the least effective recruiters in the AFL. The Blues were pretty pore too.

But yes it is Lyon's fault that he did not develop Howard into a Rising Star.....

I am still waiting for someone to produce a list of all this stellar young talent that Lyon wasted. I mean I am sure that if the talent was that good that some must have pooped up elsewhere? Can you trot out your list of the Lyon wasted young superstars?


Sure Lyon has not gone all the way. But IMO at both the Saints and Freo he inherited a good, but not great list, and in both instances has made them a better team.

2/ Gameplan.

Yes I agree that Lyon has not evolved as much as he probably should. However his gameplan now is clearly more attacking than it used to be.

Congrats to Hinkley

Let us not however in discussing Lyon miss out on giving Hinkley is deserved praise. The man deserves an out-perform rating.

But congrats too to their recruiting department. Wines at 7. Wingard at 6.

One of the key hallmarks of successful teams is good recruiting. Both kids and trades. As a good list is normally produced by an amalgam of both.

Hawks:

Clarko is a great coach. No doubt. But also their is a great recruitin department.

Cats:

I guess Bomber must have done something right. But their recruiting head honcho has been stellar.

Swans:
Longmire. Right place right time. Inherited a champion team, who remain at the top through stellar trades, but also an amazing string of great young talent. So good is their list now that Roan plays back pocket!

Yes they ave had a large salary cap advantage to get Buddy and others. But equally they have picked up players like Kennedy, LRT etc for not tat much.
Now Longmire cannot be a bad coach. But he did inherit a gameplan, culture, very good list and an exceptional recruiting department

I dont even hate Lyon.
Never have Never will
Ive been consistent on this for several years.
I'll repeat it in basic dot points - because you are obviously slow, cant read or cant comprehend basic things.

1. He is a good coach but flawed.
2. I dont blame him personally for all of our 08-11 development (and current state of our list) because I believe there should have been other people responsible for looking ahead at the club and they failed to do so.
3. His job is to coach 22 blokes and win games - which he mainly does but I believe he sticks too closely to his preferred 22 and should adopt a squad approach because I believe you need 25-26 players ready to go to increase your chance to win a flag.
4. I dont think he is as good as has been hyped by many in the media on by some on here. His rigidity and flaws are fairly clear and have been well documented and I dont need to repeat them.
5. Noone has ever said he has 'wasted superstars'. You just made that up now to somehow suit your sad denialist and apologist argument. What everyone says is he hasnt shown he can produce enough players to improve the list he inherits. He has a tendency to recruit rather than develop. eg Gamble, Charie Gardner, Lovett, Silvia, Gumbleton.
6. As a bloke - ive got nothing against him at all. I used to go to his pub (Lord Newry) and often have bumped into him at cafe (Ootong in Freo). Although some questions have been raised by his high turnover rate of asst coaches.

So really - if you are going to try to attempt be condescending - get your arguments straight and address my arguments accurately. Don't misrepresent them and be dishonest.

And if you want to be a Lyon apologist - thats also fine - its a valid viewpoint.
If thats your position thats fine. Be a man and own it.

Say "Here I stand. Lyon apologist."

Right here right now - the scorecard reads 8 years. 0 flags.

So who is blind and who is a fantasist in this debate exactly?

[Con Gorozidis]

One of the best posts I read was made by Bluthy last year. I have reposted here for the enjoyment of all agnostics/atheists/bubble heretics (and the only edit is some bold type). Also worth another look for the closing sentence.

Making 3 grannies shows Ross is a damn good coach. But from someone who's only coaching was telling my little brother where to stand as I took speccys over him here's my advice for Rosco:

• -- Low scoring is destroying your premiership attempts. 1 goal to half time aint gunna win you the cup. God hates a coward.
  -- Is it just coincidence with the bad kicking - its happened twice in grannies for you. Fates punishes those who don't listen.
  -- That forward press means the oppo teams defence have no space. But also your forward line has no space either. Freo often looked stumped going into the fwd line.
  -- Structure Rosco, structure! You seem to have chucked it out for this juniors approach getting everyone around the ball. You have possibly the best CHF in the game playing as virtual ruck rover. Play him as a standard CHF. Structure will give you some space on the forward line and let you get some relatively cheap goals instead of having to grind every single goal. We have a spine for a reason - so we don't just flop around.
  -- Does your maniacal swarm exhaust the players mentally and physically and that saps their energy and focus for shots on goal?
  -- Do they feel their control freak boss breathing down their neck when shooting for goal?
  -- Do you have players on your list because they "stick to the system" rather than having class (cough *Dawson* cough). Class and skills shines through on GF day.
  -- Are players so obsessed in their heads with the "system" that they don't do the unpredictable or show flair. The teams that win grannies have a few players who do something extraordinary.
  -- Players like all humans need to express themselves. The system crushes individuality. Fight the system!
  -- 5 mins after Freo's amazing win against Geelong you were in their face no doubt telling them "Need to focus, don't switch off" etc. Let them switch off for a bit Ross! Get rid of the tension in that sapping game and enjoy the moment. They are humans not robots.
  -- Did they play their grand final against Sydney where they were brilliant in that first half? They looked a little ragged on Sat.

I think Freo will be thereabouts again next year. Maybe it was just a freak bad kicking day

But what is the definition of madness? Doing the same thing but expecting a different result.

Terrific post by Bluthy (as usual) and thanks for sharing scollop.

There are some people that just plain want to believe in a messiah and cant be argued with.

Some believe in Santa and cant be argued with.

[Con Gorozidis]

SEN
12.19pm today

Rohan Connolly on Ross Lyon:

"For what he has achieved, I don't think there has been a better coach in the modern era."

[FQF]

SEN
12.19pm today

Rohan Connolly on Ross Lyon:

"For what hes achieved, I don't think there has been a better coach in the modern era."

Well, I think we can all agree that that is a crock of sh!t.

[saintsRrising]

cant comprehend basic things.

Now Con...I definitely do not regard you as basic..

[saintsRrising]

5. Noone has ever said he has 'wasted superstars'. You just made that up now to somehow suit your sad denialist and apologist argument.

I said youth. Not superstars.

Sorry Con, but I have read ad nauseam on this forum how he inherited the "best list" in the competition, and how he did not develop youth.

My point on the developing youth, is that you cannot develop what you do not have.[/quote]

Please list the youngsters that he did not develop? My belief is that anyone that looked half decent was given a crack. We just did not have the young talent. If you are goung to castigate him for not developing yout, then please provide the many examples of this since you have it as a major flaw.

What everyone says is he hasnt shown he can produce enough players to improve the list he inherits. He has a tendency to recruit rather than develop. eg Gamble, Charie Gardner, Lovett, Silvia, Gumbleton.
?

I think you will find that we had to take Charlie to get King.

Con there is the "chicken and the egg here".

Lyon has only inherited good, but not great lists. But lists that he has been able to get more out of and improve.

When a team can be prepared for a finals crack, and that is what the Saints and Freo hired him, then teams in this mode often top up with experienced players. Can you name one GF team that has not had recycled players in it?

Swans and Hawks have a truckload of them.

Even the Cats who once did not go for many (Though their GF teams had at least 3 in them, and with 2 of them they probably would not have one one flag) have in recent years ramped up their use of players from other clubs).

GT and Lyon both made use of many trades. With our inept recruiters is this surprising?

[ShanghaiSaint]

Freo are cooked.

[Con Gorozidis]

Can you trot out your list of the Lyon wasted young superstars?

.

Thats your words.

If people want to keep defending/apologising for Lyon with convoluted arguments they can go right ahead.

I'm not quite sure what the point is. But go nuts.

[saintsRrising]

Can you trot out your list of the Lyon wasted young superstars?

.

Thats your words.

If people want to keep defending/apologising for Lyon with convoluted arguments they can go right ahead.

I'm not quite sure what the point is. But go nuts.

Yes if add in wasted young..in the meaning I had it it means not developing potential youth into superstars.

If people are going to prattle on about Lyon not developing such youth. ....then I would like them to list all such players.

Surely it would be an easy task to at least list a bunch of them given that Lyon was so negligent in this regard.


There is not need to be convoluted. ...just list this wasted youth please.

[stinger]

SEN
12.19pm today

Rohan Connolly on Ross Lyon:

"For what he has achieved, I don't think there has been a better coach in the modern era."

Rohan talks garbage......reckoned Carey should have won a brownlow before banger.......doesn't even understand the basis that the browlow is awarded.....clown

[stinger]

Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? Freo will crush Port/Rich next week and might surprise the Hawks in the PF, just as the Dogs almost beat us in 2009. Swans v Freo in the GF, who can say what might happen?

Not sure about that.."both port and the tigers are capable of doing the shockers over...they don't kick enough goals....Lyons curse....

[Con Gorozidis]

Can you trot out your list of the Lyon wasted young superstars?

.

Thats your words.

If people want to keep defending/apologising for Lyon with convoluted arguments they can go right ahead.

I'm not quite sure what the point is. But go nuts.

Yes if add in wasted young..in the meaning I had it it means not developing potential youth into superstars.

If people are going to prattle on about Lyon not developing such youth. ....then I would like them to list all such players.

Surely it would be an easy task to at least list a bunch of them given that Lyon was so negligent in this regard.


There is not need to be convoluted. ...just list this wasted youth please.

If you are saying that as head coach he shouldn't be held 100% responsible for recruitment - then I certainly agree with that.

Whatever is happening under his watch isnt quite working because he never quite has the 22-25 players he needs to go all the way.
He does well with his 16-19 or so good players - but just keeps leaving himself that little bit light on for talent when it comes down to it.

Whether its 'wasted youth' or 'lack of youth' I dont know the answer - the reality is he hasn't really been that great with youth.

[Bunk_Moreland]

SEN
12.19pm today

Rohan Connolly on Ross Lyon:

"For what he has achieved, I don't think there has been a better coach in the modern era."

Surely he was trolling and wanting people to ring in.

Sheedy modern era
Malthouse modern era
Mathews modern era
Thomson modern era
Clarkson modern era.

SLyon has achieved more than any of those.

lol

[thejiggingsaint]

let the concurring commence!

[saintly]

Looks like his future is sealed unless they both agree to part ways. Interesting to see if he tries to get out of this contract for 2015.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/r ... 730af352f0

Lyon hs an extention until end of 2017.

he has 3 years to get a flag at freo unless he jumps ship.

[SaintPav]

SEN
12.19pm today

Rohan Connolly on Ross Lyon:

"For what he has achieved, I don't think there has been a better coach in the modern era."

Roh's having having more communication issues; must have meant modem error...