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saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Hear! Hear!
Last night on SEN callers were asked to nominate the "greatest dog act they've seen" and Ross Lyon was in the top 5 dog acts.
whiskers3614 wrote:Have asked this question before but have never received a satisfactory response, so here goes again.
After how many consecutive finals series many including GF's and still zero flags would it be appropriate to sack Lyon?
Before you label this as the ramblings of a Lyon hater please consider Tommy Hafey's years at Collingwood.
Took over a side that had just "won" the wooden spoon.
5 GF's including a draw and therefore a replay in 5 years but sacked during his 6th season!
As if his Collingwood record alone is not enough it was preceded by 4 flags in 11 years at the Tigers!
Lyon is in his eighth year now so surely the clock is ticking!
You forgot to mention that Collingwood lost 9 in a row before Hafey was sacked. So not really a valid comparison.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
That's because he was someone they needed to extract from a contract. Also players weren't getting the same money they were then either so hard to compare.
i actually think he would be in demand at plenty of clubs and someone in a position like Carlton was when they got Malthouse would be pretty happy to get him in. He will pretty much drive the best from your list and is a known quantity. If he went to a team with a shittier list and failed the employment prospects would drop off. Most punters that aren't emotional about it would have said freo were up against it when Johnson and Mc Pharlin went down for the finals.
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
Well I think you are wrong. Im still not convinced he has coached a side with a top 2 list yet even though we won 19 in a row so you could argue that is incorrect but we had little or no depth due to poor player payments. By the way matthews was 10 years ago so I dont get that at all.
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
Well I think you are wrong. Im still not convinced he has coached a side with a top 2 list yet even though we won 19 in a row so you could argue that is incorrect but we had little or no depth due to poor player payments. By the way matthews was 10 years ago so I dont get that at all.
Ok, let's say I grant you that he over-achieved getting both teams to GF's.
Can you answer me the original question of how many finals without a flag will be considered too many?
PS Kosi don't you think Tommy's 4 flags may have garnered enough Brownie points to counteract 9 consecutive losses?
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
Well I think you are wrong. Im still not convinced he has coached a side with a top 2 list yet even though we won 19 in a row so you could argue that is incorrect but we had little or no depth due to poor player payments. By the way matthews was 10 years ago so I dont get that at all.
Ok, let's say I grant you that he over-achieved getting both teams to GF's.
Can you answer me the original question of how many finals without a flag will be considered too many?
PS Kosi don't you think Tommy's 4 flags may have garnered enough Brownie points to counteract 9 consecutive losses?
I have no idea to the question. To be totally honest i hope RL never coaches again so me and others dont have to defend him and you and others dont have to attack him. I suppose it was the same with GT until we made the finals again. Sadly we are a long way off finals so this may go on for years.
whiskers3614 wrote:Ok, let's say I grant you that he over-achieved getting both teams to GF's.
Can you answer me the original question of how many finals without a flag will be considered too many?
Considering Fremantle have extended his contract to 4 more years directly after losing the Grand Final, that would suggest they are pretty happy with what he is currently delivering them.
If he keeps getting sides that far, they'll win eventually, contrary to what people are suggesting here.
He was in 3 with us and didn't eventually win one!
I think the theory of eventually winning a flag through weight of numbers is a myth. It just doesn't work like that. You could make 900 GFs in a row and lose every one if you're not the best team on the day.
Having said that, I'd be shocked if Freo keep playing in GFs once Pavlich, McPharlin, Sandilands and co. retire and or have their impact diminished considerably due to their age.
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Arnt you a lawyer?
Surely you know what a clause in a contract is? He legally exercised this clause... St Kilda effectively failed to secure a very very in demand coach.
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't reckon there will be too many suitors waving blank cheques like Freo if he doesn't win one soon.
Not sure how they decided to pay a MAIDEN GF performer more than Matthews in his Brisbane days! !
Yeah because this year and last Freo were dead set certainties for the flag.
Do people on here only watch GFs? Surely they are find the time to watch the h&a season for alternative teams other than st Kilda if they want to comment on them.
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Arnt you a lawyer?
Surely you know what a clause in a contract is? He legally exercised this clause... St Kilda effectively failed to secure a very very in demand coach.
what's your point....???? why the need to bring my profession into your post?????? i think it is/was very common knowledge in ALL football circles that the creep had a get out clause in his contract....but he still conned the club into believing he would sign a new contract...... and all the whle negotiating behind their back....the guy is a loser....can't believe that some on here keep defending the scumbag.....
Last edited by stinger on Thu 11 Sep 2014 12:01am, edited 1 time in total.
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Arnt you a lawyer?
Surely you know what a clause in a contract is? He legally exercised this clause... St Kilda effectively failed to secure a very very in demand coach.
what's ypor point....???? why the need to bring my profession into your post?????? i think it is/was very common knowledge in ALL football circles that the creep had a get out clause in his contract....but he still conned the club into believing he would sign a new contract...... and all the whle negotiating behind their back....the guy is a loser....can't believe that some on here keep defending the scumbag.....
Point is pretty clear. You implied he walked on a contract - he didn't break it, he exercised a clause. You profession, which we only know because you have informed us all is relevant because lawyers know what a contract is.
Should Lyon have told the club at the start of the year - hold on guys, let's not discuss terms, I'm planning on exercising this clause? No he shouldn't have.
Who negotiates a contract and says they will definitely sign or definitely walk?
So in summation, to make it clear for you, my point was to point out that you implied an untruth.
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Arnt you a lawyer?
Surely you know what a clause in a contract is? He legally exercised this clause... St Kilda effectively failed to secure a very very in demand coach.
what's ypor point....???? why the need to bring my profession into your post?????? i think it is/was very common knowledge in ALL football circles that the creep had a get out clause in his contract....but he still conned the club into believing he would sign a new contract...... and all the whle negotiating behind their back....the guy is a loser....can't believe that some on here keep defending the scumbag.....
Point is pretty clear. You implied he walked on a contract - he didn't break it, he exercised a clause. You profession, which we only know because you have informed us all is relevant because lawyers know what a contract is.
Should Lyon have told the club at the start of the year - hold on guys, let's not discuss terms, I'm planning on exercising this clause? No he shouldn't have.
Who negotiates a contract and says they will definitely sign or definitely walk?
So in summation, to make it clear for you, my point was to point out that you implied an untruth.
Match point.
rubbish......here's my exact quote..
'
"he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values....."
where did i say he broke his contract.or..breached his contract.....???..i didn't...and i certainly did not imply an untruth .......no match point to pu...but a foul all the same....
the guy's an asswipe. if you want to stick up for him....fine by me.......but then certain types always stick together don't they?????
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Johnny Member wrote:He was in 3 with us and didn't eventually win one!
I think the theory of eventually winning a flag through weight of numbers is a myth. It just doesn't work like that. You could make 900 GFs in a row and lose every one if you're not the best team on the day.
Having said that, I'd be shocked if Freo keep playing in GFs once Pavlich, McPharlin, Sandilands and co. retire and or have their impact diminished considerably due to their age.
mcpharlin and pavlich are already diminished. sandilands almost gone. mundy too. All they have left soon is fyfe. Take him out and they have nothing. By the way, lower case used purposely . Have no respect for any of them. As for eddie munster, I can't even bring myself to type his name. Broken jaw - suck it through a straw w.....r.
saintly wrote:Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo
Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?
he was contracted to the saints for another year...didn't stop him walking out the door and hoping on a plane to the other side of the country...history WILL repeat itself in lyin's case.......why????...because the guy is ruthless and without any moral values.....
Arnt you a lawyer?
Surely you know what a clause in a contract is? He legally exercised this clause... St Kilda effectively failed to secure a very very in demand coach.
still going on about this. Lyon had 1 1/2 years to go on his contract at the saints when he wanted a new contract. any normal person would at least wait until the end of the that year boefre offfering an extension. no club before or since has offered an extension with that long to go.
He told his manager to negotiate with the saints, and according to his manager and the saints by the end of the season he was ready to sign the extension. except he went behing everybody's back and signed with freo for more money, becuase he made bad investments in melbourne and was broke.
I can't understand the feting (or denigrating for that matter) of coaches - for the most part they are ordinary people whose fortunes are based solely on where their lists are at and whether their charges develop or go backwards.
It's AFL coach versus AFL coach (we don't have an AFL coach vs a backyard football coach scenario) - so the only real difference is the player list at any given point in time.
Take Roos for instance, "a premiership coach" - if the Demon players don't develop, his game plan or game day strategy will amount to nothing. Past performance does not guarantee future returns (as everything comes down to where the player list is at and who is on it at any given point in time).
If RL was such a great coach, one that could really make a difference, then we wouldn't have declined as rapidly as we did under him. We were going backwards at a rate of knots - and somehow we turned that decline around in our first year without him!
At the end of the day, we now have a committed coach (on half the salary) who has the patience to develop young players as part of an overall plan that
has more chance to succeed.
It's all about recruiting the best available players and then developing them and keeping them as injury free as possible. That's the key!
The rest is myth.
Last edited by samoht on Thu 11 Sep 2014 10:31am, edited 2 times in total.
1965 Saint wrote:
mcpharlin and pavlich are already diminished. sandilands almost gone. mundy too. All they have left soon is fyfe. Take him out and they have nothing. By the way, lower case used purposely . Have no respect for any of them. As for eddie munster, I can't even bring myself to type his name. Broken jaw - suck it through a straw w.....r.
At the start of next season Pavlich and MacPharlin will be 33. Sandilands 32. Sandilands isn't anywhere near 'almost gone' though. He was mighty in the ruck against Sydney last week. And Mundy is only 29. A good few years in him yet.
samoht wrote:If RL was such a great coach, one that could really make a difference, then we wouldn't have declined as rapidly as we did under him. We were going backwards at a rate of knots - and somehow we turned that decline around in our first year without him!
Myth. We made the finals in 2011
2012 we did not make the finals so we were obviously in a lower ladder place than 2011
2013 third last
2014 last.
Yup I can see how we have turned around the decline
samoht wrote:If RL was such a great coach, one that could really make a difference, then we wouldn't have declined as rapidly as we did under him. We were going backwards at a rate of knots - and somehow we turned that decline around in our first year without him!
Myth. We made the finals in 2011
2012 we did not make the finals so we were obviously in a lower ladder place than 2011
2013 third last
2014 last.
Yup I can see how we have turned around the decline
Also I don't think any coach can make finals with out a decent list. I think Ross has an ability to milk every drop from the list he has but you can't work miracles. He acknowledged the list needed a rebuild. The rebuild he did might have looked different but we were always stepping back even if he stayed.
Bunk_Moreland wrote:
Myth. We made the finals in 2011
2012 we did not make the finals so we were obviously in a lower ladder place than 2011
You've missed the point - obviously we were in a rapid decline under RL. We had 12 and 1/2 wins under him in 2011.
But the following year, 2012, SW - the disgraced coach - had the same amount of wins (12 wins, but 1 less draw) and our % was 120% - that''s a whopping 20% higher than the previous year under RL - and we lost a handful of games by a goal or so. We could have easily won 15 games in 2012, with a bit of luck. Our backline was also decimated by injury -SW nevertheless stopped the decline.
So I'm not buying the RL myth.
In fact I'm not buying any coach myth - they are all AFL coaches (as disgraced coach SW proved in 2012 vs RL in 2011) who just negate each other.
samoht wrote:If RL was such a great coach, one that could really make a difference, then we wouldn't have declined as rapidly as we did under him. We were going backwards at a rate of knots - and somehow we turned that decline around in our first year without him!
Myth. We made the finals in 2011
2012 we did not make the finals so we were obviously in a lower ladder place than 2011
2013 third last
2014 last.
Yup I can see how we have turned around the decline
The points about personnel shouldn't be ignored. The list is now undergoing the rebuild that Toss was eluding to during his last year in 2011.
Point was made about the 'rate of the decline' and the fact 'in our first year' without Toss the rate of decline turned. In other words the playing list and on field personnel in the first year after Toss was not as relatively different as in subsequent years after Toss.
