Ross Lyon after today

[Bunk_Moreland]

Stories of him removing posters of the grand final losses from the rooms, cause second shouldn't be celebrated. People will react to that differently, some on here will see it as disrespectful...others as trying to change the culture.

Yes changing the culture of making it to Grand Finals or even finals.

He certainly achieved that.

Watters was sacked for many reasons, the biggest being he simply was not up for the job.

And in that, I don't blame Watters, but the bloody dumb administration who hired him in the first place.

Since then we have seen the back of the president and the CEO.

Summers seems a likely type, Finnis has the support of the AFL head honcho and Richardson seems to be a level headed type of coach.

We have also got the first NZ woman on the board and a woman development coach.

Things have turned around off field.

Can you elaborate on your perceived "issues" at the club that haven't been resolved. Would be interested to know them.

[plugger66]

Losing most players young and old and hiring people without telling the board...

Yep. That's what was said in the presser

Well you cant blame them because it happened. I dont know why we care about SW or RL. lets just hope AR is the man because he isnt we may have wasted another couple of years.

[plugger66]

We don't do things well, summers admitted as much the other night.

I hope he gets another gig, no reason not to.

If he lost a core group, everyone else would follow suit.

That happens at any work place.

Easily done.

But that isnt what happened. I dont quite get you at the moment SK. It seemed you had doubts about SW but are now sticking up for him and it seemed you never had doubts about RL but now do. Its all a bit confusing. SW wasnt a good people person so he could never be a good seior coach. The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

[Bunk_Moreland]

We don't do things well, summers admitted as much the other night.

I hope he gets another gig, no reason not to.

If he lost a core group, everyone else would follow suit.

That happens at any work place.

Easily done.

It wasn't just players, admin, fitness staff, assistant coaches, probably even the boot studder - all would have left if Watters had stayed. He was out of control and hardly anyone could work with him.

Do you think this was all caused because one or two "core" players didn't like him? because heres the truth, ANY coach will have players that don't like them. Do you think Richo would be universally loved? Think Gwilt likes Richo?

Really, Watters was incompetent and had to go.

[Bunk_Moreland]

The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

A terrible choice as it turns out. Really poor recruitment by the STKFC.

[SainterK]

We don't do things well, summers admitted as much the other night.

I hope he gets another gig, no reason not to.

If he lost a core group, everyone else would follow suit.

That happens at any work place.

Easily done.

But that isnt what happened. I dont quite get you at the moment SK. It seemed you had doubts about SW but are now sticking up for him and it seemed you never had doubts about RL but now do. Its all a bit confusing. SW wasnt a good people person so he could never be a good seior coach. The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

Oh I'm the queen or hindsight with Ross, ill admit that.

I've been consistent in saying I though Scott was undermined and exited.

[SainterK]

The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

A terrible choice as it turns out. Really poor recruitment by the STKFC.

Well Pelchen was on the panel that appointed him...

[gringo]

We don't do things well, summers admitted as much the other night.

I hope he gets another gig, no reason not to.

If he lost a core group, everyone else would follow suit.

That happens at any work place.

Easily done.

But that isnt what happened. I dont quite get you at the moment SK. It seemed you had doubts about SW but are now sticking up for him and it seemed you never had doubts about RL but now do. Its all a bit confusing. SW wasnt a good people person so he could never be a good seior coach. The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

Oh I'm the queen or hindsight with Ross, ill admit that.

I've been consistent in saying I though Scott was undermined and exited.

I think he was but I was also told he was a weird dude who had different stories to different people and poor communication lines. I can appreciate his contribution and bringing on the development of guys like Newnes is a strong legacy he has left. I think he believed the idea that we could replace Raph and Gram etc. with some quality kids and do a Geelong but could change on a games outcome. Richo seems a bit boring but extremely consistent and predictable. For a development coach that's ideal. I have moved on from both Ross and Watters and can now see their good points.

[Scollop]

I've been consistent in saying I though Scott was undermined and exited.

What irritates me more than the clique who undermined Watters is that some people think it is ok to slander a bloke. Watters didn't have the luxury of picking up a team on the rise and a team of young respectful starry eyed athletes. The losses last year were always going create friction and I suppose the it had to come to a head.

Respect is a two way street. If they pined for Rossco Lyon and his game plan and what greatness we achieved under Rossco, then perhaps they should have reconsidered staying at the club. As it turned out someone had to go.

[plugger66]

I've been consistent in saying I though Scott was undermined and exited.

What irritates me more than the clique who undermined Watters is that some people think it is ok to slander a bloke. Watters didn't have the luxury of picking up a team on the rise and a team of young respectful starry eyed athletes. The losses last year were always going create friction and I suppose the it had to come to a head.

Respect is a two way street. If they pined for Rossco Lyon and his game plan and what greatness we achieved under Rossco, then perhaps they should have reconsidered staying at the club. As it turned out someone had to go.

You keep mentioning a clique or a few senior players even though it has been pointed out for the last 10 months it was much more than that. By the way it isnt slander when it is the truth. And it had nothing to do with RL. it was all of SW making. keep looking for excuses that arent there if you dont want to use the facts as an excuse. Everyone coach has players who dont like them but not everyone has most of the players in all age groups that dont like them or people around the club who just wouldnt work with him anymore. Thats fact and thats why it isnt slander.

[Scollop]

I have moved on from both Ross and Watters and can now see their good points.

That's a good signature right there

Think we might just take that message on board. Cheers gringo

[sunsaint]

The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

A terrible choice as it turns out. Really poor recruitment by the STKFC.

Well Pelchen was on the panel that appointed him...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhh
THANK YOU SK

some people in this thread are cherry picking their memories to suit
Chris Pelchen was brought in by the club because RL had got too big for his boots - he was running his own football dept and the board finally got sick of it. (I cant believe people trying to re-write history by claiming that RL didnt have influence in trades and drafts - there you go plugger argue "influence")

[plugger66]

The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

A terrible choice as it turns out. Really poor recruitment by the STKFC.

Well Pelchen was on the panel that appointed him...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhh
THANK YOU SK

some people in this thread are cherry picking their memories to suit
Chris Pelchen was brought in by the club because RL had got too big for his boots - he was running his own football dept and the board finally got sick of it. (I cant believe people trying to re-write history by claiming that RL didnt have influence in trades and drafts - there you go plugger argue "influence")

No idea why you mentioned my name. can you explain? Who suggested he didnt have influence in trades? certainly not me so i again have no idea why my name was mentioned. As for drafting I wouldnt know but i would doubt he would have much influence and getting Pelchen doesnt prove he did or didnt. Where is this cherry picking you speak of. And if there is any of course you would never do such a thing.

[saintsRrising]

(I cant believe people trying to re-write history by claiming that RL didnt have influence in trades and drafts )

No influence? Who is stating that?

Trades yes. We would not have gained Schneider and Dempster for bargain double deal without him. A coach will have seen other AFL level players play, and the club will have done many hours of analysis on such players. From memory in his first press conference he flagged that he wanted some experienced rucks. King and Gardiner were both secured. And some duds too...but more good than bad, and especially given what was given up.

Draft..much lesser influence. And certainly NO coach has the time or resources to assess all the young or unknown picks. The picks that he would have some influence on would be those where players are re-draft.

My personal view, that I have long stated, is that RL leaned to trading in players as he will have quite rightly had little faith in our inept recruiters. I tend to think that this is also why GT became such a heavy trader as well.


Even Richo is part of our our current list review panel. Though make no mistake Pelchen is the most influential person on it.

[bigred]

Highly amusing thread.

RL is a great coach. But as one post mentioned a few pages back, five coaches have won flags since RL got a senior gig.

That kinda blows the "genius" statement out of the water.

I love his defensive setup. He gets amazing buy in from the group. They really believe in the game plan.

I don't mind the story about ripping posters off walls etc...etc... Especially when he was at St.K. He was driving the winning is the only thing mentality.

I cant help but think that he is fast running out of time at Freo. Cant wait to see how his rebuild goes......

Rebuild...who am i kidding. He will be on the phone to the AFL asking about GWS in 2016.

[Con Gorozidis]

I really think Kenny Sheldon and Stan Alves are under-rated.

[saintly]

Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo

[magnifisaint]

Freo has given Lyon a 2 year extension (i think) which means he has another three years at freo

Well that will certainly be an interesting gig if he doesn't win one this year.
Maybe we might see his frustration boil over?

[whiskers3614]

Have asked this question before but have never received a satisfactory response, so here goes again.
After how many consecutive finals series many including GF's and still zero flags would it be appropriate to sack Lyon?
Before you label this as the ramblings of a Lyon hater please consider Tommy Hafey's years at Collingwood.
Took over a side that had just "won" the wooden spoon.
5 GF's including a draw and therefore a replay in 5 years but sacked during his 6th season!
As if his Collingwood record alone is not enough it was preceded by 4 flags in 11 years at the Tigers!
Lyon is in his eighth year now so surely the clock is ticking!

[stinger]

Ross himself has finally acknowledged this year that his game plan needed tweaking. Why didn't he say so after the GF loss in '09 where we failed to score a goal in the last quarter?

Ross Lyon convinced the St Kilda faithful that we lost in '09 because of poor kicking in the first half of that GF.

If you're 2 or 3 or even 4 goals up at half time please tell me how that guarantees victory? Never heard of a game finishing at half time, have you? Why did so many kool-aid drinking Saints supporters buy that rubbish from the coach and many continue to believe that as the main reason for that loss.

Yeah I suppose at the time a lot of people were convinced and had blind faith in the messiah. I accepted that at the time, but we all know footy is more complex than just getting in front by a few goals in the first half. We know now that RL teams have failed to kick relatively high scores in the big dance on the last day in September. I think he has changed and he has improved but this came at a cost to us.

Instead of an examination of his game plan and some changes to the game plan at the end of 2009, RL chose to scapegoat certain players instead of embracing the playing list and helping each player improve. The new players he brought in would prove to perhaps be not as important as those he chose to boot out.

Why did we believe that our core group and their team mates weren't good enough? Think about that for a second please. We didn't play our best footy in the finals in 09 and 10 and yet we were fricken awesome in those years when we played at our best. Why didn't we manage our players better to have them playing at their best in September? Who is in charge of that?

Why was it Bally's fault? Why was Mini or Eddie to blame or Raph or Dempster or Schneider or why was it Peake's or Gram's or Ray's fualt or Blakeys or Bakes or Gardi's or Gilbo's fault? Why would you think that Lenny and Roo and Chips and Milne and Kosi and BJ and Dal weren't good enough?

Once the damage was done to our footy club from Ross and the board and CEO and the recruiting teams - who all basically drank way too much kool aid - and as we bid farewell to the finals race of 2011, I finally woke up and thought perhaps this core group of players might not get another opportunity as a playing group to win a flag for their beloved Saints.

That's when I realised (along with his absolutely negative comments about 'end of an era' in April of 2011) this bloke had basically accused all his players of failing and he hadn't made any public comments to put his hand up as the leader who should really have taken most of the blame. That's when I realised that he tried to walk away without any scars but he had actually scarred many of his loyal players for life.

Ross had set himself up for life with two outstanding years of coaching and I know we got close and I know he did his best as a relatively young senior coach on the scene, but I have a simple question to anyone else who wants to answer. Think carefully because part of the reason some on here have a whipping boy mentality may have something to do with your attitude to our players.

Are you happy to continue blaming our players for our loss in '09 and the draw and subsequent loss in 2010 or will you ever concede that our players did their best and it was Ross Lyon's coaching and his game plan that basically failed on Grand Final day?

great post........we should leave the discussion there

[dragit]

Have asked this question before but have never received a satisfactory response, so here goes again.
After how many consecutive finals series many including GF's and still zero flags would it be appropriate to sack Lyon?
Before you label this as the ramblings of a Lyon hater please consider Tommy Hafey's years at Collingwood.
Took over a side that had just "won" the wooden spoon.
5 GF's including a draw and therefore a replay in 5 years but sacked during his 6th season!
As if his Collingwood record alone is not enough it was preceded by 4 flags in 11 years at the Tigers!
Lyon is in his eighth year now so surely the clock is ticking!

I think you are under-estimating how hard it is just to make grand finals.
I would suggest Lyon is in absolutely no danger of being sacked whatsoever at this stage.
I guess if the board thought that he was clearly coaching the best list in the country, but failing to get the job done then he would come under pressure.
I don't think this has been the case & I doubt the Fremantle board would think their list is currently stronger than Hawthorn & Sydney.
The wheel turned for Blight eventually after 3 Grand Final losses… maybe Ross will do the same, or maybe he'll never win one.
Pretty sure he'll have a job for a while though.

[whiskers3614]

Have asked this question before but have never received a satisfactory response, so here goes again.
After how many consecutive finals series many including GF's and still zero flags would it be appropriate to sack Lyon?
Before you label this as the ramblings of a Lyon hater please consider Tommy Hafey's years at Collingwood.
Took over a side that had just "won" the wooden spoon.
5 GF's including a draw and therefore a replay in 5 years but sacked during his 6th season!
As if his Collingwood record alone is not enough it was preceded by 4 flags in 11 years at the Tigers!
Lyon is in his eighth year now so surely the clock is ticking!

I think you are under-estimating how hard it is just to make grand finals.
I would suggest Lyon is in absolutely no danger of being sacked whatsoever at this stage.
I guess if the board thought that he was clearly coaching the best list in the country, but failing to get the job done then he would come under pressure.
I don't think this has been the case & I doubt the Fremantle board would think their list is currently stronger than Hawthorn & Sydney.
The wheel turned for Blight eventually after 3 Grand Final losses… maybe Ross will do the same, or maybe he'll never win one.
Pretty sure he'll have a job for a while though.

I realise he's not in imminent danger but let's say he's still flagless in 6 or7 years making it 15 in total, particularly if his sides continue to post 8 or 9 goal tallies in finals?

[dragit]

I realise he's not in imminent danger but let's say he's still flagless in 6 or7 years making it 15 in total, particularly if his sides continue to post 8 or 9 goal tallies in finals?

I reckon most clubs would see making grand finals as relative success, you could be right though if his sides continue to only kick 10 goals… but if you make and lose a grand final with a list not considered top 2 then I don't think the coach will be blamed for not winning it.

The bigger danger for him is running his players into the ground and seeing another group burn-out from near misses - like us circa 2011.

[stinger]

Bakes only admitted recently that he shouldn't of played.

Only found out Eddy had broken bones last year.

If he'd said after the replay that this stuff had happened, I'd probably have asked the question?

Would you of?

Or you think it's irrelevant?

I think its irrelevant now. I must say i have never heard bakes say he shouldnt have played. And yes you may have asked the question back then but I also think you would answered it with well RL would know better than us. The thing is we know our players and injuries and the such but because we lost we say its the wrong move. Im guessing that Geelong or the pies also had injuries but because they won it doesnt matter. Steve Johnson played last week and most likely will this week and he can hardly work. Hawkins the same last year.

He did, on open mike.

Presti put up his hand and said he waning right, they made a big song and dance about it...and Leon Davis was dropped for under performing.

Stevie J better perform...

yep....bakes did say that

[stinger]

The problem wasnt him though, it was the people who picked him.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

A terrible choice as it turns out. Really poor recruitment by the STKFC.

Well Pelchen was on the panel that appointed him...

yep....but hey..i'm not a pelican fan yet...not by a long shot......and i still despise lyin...always will....hope all his chickens come home to roost....