Ross Lyon after today

[Legendary]

Geez some of you on here make me sick. The guy is a genius full stop. We all should know this as St Kilda supporters. It was only unlucky/freak circumstances that stoped Lyon and us from winning 2 premierships in a row. Yes, that's right, back to back flags. He left us, so what? Why be bitter and wish bad luck on him? If you must know, he had lost a lot of money and his house actually as well. He had a chance to be paid double what he was being paid at the Saints. If any of us were in the same situation we would have all done the same.

I agree.

3 grand finals (4 including the replay) and 4 (maybe 5) preliminary finals in 7 years of coaching.

No different to Bob Rose. Or Blighty after he left the Cats.

Lyon's gameplan may have some shortcomings in finals, particularly in kicking a winning score. That's an entirely valid debate.

But the guy sh|ts all over Eade/Northey/Wallace. Those guys coached a few prelims and were nowhere near a premiership.

Most people in the industry rate Lyon as an outstanding coach, and I agree.

[samoht]

Obviously people really rate Lyon and/or Freo vs the Swans and Longmire.
I couldn't believe that with only a quarter to go, and with the Swans up by a handy 20 points or so and with momentum their (the Swan's) way, that about 60% of people who responded to the question " who do you think will win it from here?" went for Freo.

[saintly]

some people have more morality in their little finger then ross Lyon has as a whole and thats the difference.

[Spinner]

some people have more morality in their little finger then ross Lyon has as a whole and thats the difference.

Cos he changed jobs?

And acted on a clause that was built in to suit the club but instead ended up being the clubs downfall because another employer recognised his value in the industry.

You can go the moral debate all year long but you have no idea what type of person, father, husband he is.

[Scollop]

Facts are that Lyon was out coached and our team was outplayed in 2009/2010. The pattern emerged while he was at the Saints that his team struggled to kick goals in finals. We fell over the line against the Dogs in a final even though we comprehensively smashed them TWICE IN THE SAME YEAR in home and away.

If you want to convince yourself I'm sure you can put up an argument that we lost in 09 because the other team had more All Australians. Some commentators and analysts are finally questioning the Lyon game plan. Why wasn't it plain to see back then when we failed to score a major for the whole of the last quarter in the 2009 GF???

Some coaches are accountable and some take responsibility when their team loses. Lyon does what he's good at - he blameshifts; he deflects; he makes up excuses for his deficiencies. Not saying he hasn't improved, but the messiah worshopping was wrong and ONLY WE as a club are paying the price - Lyon WALKED AWAY without any scars...he was a major cause of the predicament we find ourselves in.

There's no guarantee that we will climb the ladder or be in finals for a very VERY LONG TIME...meantime other clubs get stronger....our membership and our finances get weaker. We must never lose sight of the basic foundations and the blueprint that allowed us the opportunity under the Lyon era. We must have a continual focus on development of future players and future on field leaders if we want sustained success and survival in this competition.

It's strange that some turn around and question why there wasn't more debate about the game plan at the time we were winning and that some think there weren't any voices on Saintsational criticising Lyon in 2009/2010. As if the insular world of SS was the only place that the debate should have been held. Maybe some of us started posting on this forum after reading the crap on here for so long and trying to help free the minds of those who had drunk the messiahs kool aid for too long.

"I felt pressure on my back; I turned around; I said please don't do that; we missed some marks; we missed our opportunities; we didn't take advantage in the second quarter; our midfielders didn't get the job done in the first half"

Sound familiar? ......No.... OK - Keep Drinking

[The OtherThommo]

some people have more morality in their little finger then ross Lyon has as a whole and thats the difference.

Cos he changed jobs?

And acted on a clause that was built in to suit the club but instead ended up being the clubs downfall because another employer recognised his value in the industry.

You can go the moral debate all year long but you have no idea what type of person, father, husband he is.

And, Lyon recognised the other mob could front end load his coaching contract, and he needed that more than anything.

He got embroiled with the insider money men at Sydney , drank the debt financing bathwater, and burnt more than 7 figures, mostly in a speccy mining company. In the aftermath of the GFC the debt continued to climb. He lost pretty much all, and saw no way out, other than to grab a massively front end loaded offer from Freo (who knew the shyte he was in, 'cos he hawked himself and knew we couldn't afford to do the same).

So, while we negotiated with his manager to extend his contract, he accepted the Freo offer. Even his manager was in the dark.

So, no, I'm not a rap. He might be a great husband and father, a brilliant coach and have lots of other laudable qualities.

But, he's a gullible, greedy and god awful investor, a wannabe who succumbed to the spruikers from Sin City.

Which is all a bit odd for a bloke who studied Industrial Relations and was something of a leftie rabble rouser when he played.

Personal evolution, or just more ethically flexible than the myth?

[Con Gorozidis]

Geez some of you on here make me sick. The guy is a genius full stop. We all should know this as St Kilda supporters. It was only unlucky/freak circumstances that stoped Lyon and us from winning 2 premierships in a row. Yes, that's right, back to back flags. He left us, so what? Why be bitter and wish bad luck on him? If you must know, he had lost a lot of money and his house actually as well. He had a chance to be paid double what he was being paid at the Saints. If any of us were in the same situation we would have all done the same.

I agree.

3 grand finals (4 including the replay) and 4 (maybe 5) preliminary finals in 7 years of coaching.

No different to Bob Rose. Or Blighty after he left the Cats.

Lyon's gameplan may have some shortcomings in finals, particularly in kicking a winning score. That's an entirely valid debate.

But the guy sh|ts all over Eade/Northey/Wallace. Those guys coached a few prelims and were nowhere near a premiership.

Most people in the industry rate Lyon as an outstanding coach, and I agree.

Blight won back to back flags in his first two years at the Crows winning flags from 4th and 5th on the ladder. He was a god damn genius. They also won by 5 goals both times.

Lyon will never win a flag at Freo.

Comparing Lyon to Blight shows how deluded some people are on Lyon.

Lyon aint no genius. If you want to comfort yourself with the bounce of the ball and the toe poke or whatever go right ahead. The fact is we werent quite good enough and relied on too few.

[stinger]

- but some chronic flaws. Great coaches don't have those glaring flaws.

watching roo one out against two and even three filth players in the forward half of the ground time and time again in the replayed grandfinal should have been enough for most sainters to relise that the guy was one dimensional......

[stinger]

If people hats him so be it.
It shouldn't effect anyone else .

I don't hate him as I don't know him
But I'm glad he lost.

i can accept your point of view...i'm glad he lost too......picked all four winners over the weekend......

[stinger]

Obviously people really rate Lyon and/or Freo vs the Swans and Longmire.
I couldn't believe that with only a quarter to go, and with the Swans up by a handy 20 points or so and with momentum their (the Swan's) way, that about 60% of people who responded to the question " who do you think will win it from here?" went for Freo.

..... just goes to show that 60% don't know their arse from their elbow..... ...freo were never going to win from 3/4 time if the swans kicked more than one goal in the final term.....

[The Redeemer]

some people have more morality in their little finger then ross Lyon has as a whole and thats the difference.

Cos he changed jobs?

And acted on a clause that was built in to suit the club but instead ended up being the clubs downfall because another employer recognised his value in the industry.

You can go the moral debate all year long but you have no idea what type of person, father, husband he is.

So he took a job that gave him more money and a longer term?

Right.

If anything, it makes him a good operator and assists in sorting his finances out.

Now he just needs me as a Fund Manager and I will sort him out good.

[samoht]

- but some chronic flaws. Great coaches don't have those glaring flaws.

watching roo one out against two and even three filth players in the forward half of the ground time and time again in the replayed grandfinal should have been enough for most sainters to relise that the guy was one dimensional......

I agree, stinger and johnny member. Also a great post by scollop, above.

re: Ross Lyon - his time was up, as far as I was concerned. There definitely were some chronic flaws.
The pies had 30 more defensive forward-50 tackles than we did in the final. We, on the other hand, played games in 2010 where we had 1 or 2 forward-50 tackles.
That was not good enough. Does anyone consider this good coaching?
Meanwhile the opposition half-back lines rebounded at will, no matter who we played - because of our poor defensive F-50 pressure.
Harbrow, as a half-back, had two 40 possession games against us in succession. Has he got anywhere near that amount of possessions against other teams?
Thomas, Shaw and O' Brien tore us to shreds, with 90 possession games between them.

[StPeter]

I will always blame Lyon for losing our grand finals at the selection table.

Playing the likes of McQualter and Eddy ahead of such players as Gwilt, Geary and others.

He virtually admitted his mistake after the 2010 grandfinal by delisting both players after playing them in both grand finals.

Also imagine if we had Ball in our grand final team in 2010 instead of Eddy or if he hadn't left Ball on the bench in the last quarter of the 2009 grand final when we were over-run.

[samoht]

I will always blame Lyon for losing our grand finals at the selection table.

Playing the likes of McQualter and Eddy ahead of such players as Gwilt, Geary and others.

He virtually admitted his mistake after the 2010 grandfinal by delisting both players after playing them in both grand finals.

Also imagine if we had Ball in our grand final team in 2010 instead of Eddy or if he hadn't left Ball on the bench in the last quarter of the 2009 grand final when we were over-run.

.. the "others" includes Armitage.
Gwilt, Geary and Armitage would have got us over the line. Some more defensive F50 pressure would have certainly helped too.

[saintspremiers]

Geez some of you on here make me sick. The guy is a genius full stop. We all should know this as St Kilda supporters. It was only unlucky/freak circumstances that stoped Lyon and us from winning 2 premierships in a row. Yes, that's right, back to back flags. He left us, so what? Why be bitter and wish bad luck on him? If you must know, he had lost a lot of money and his house actually as well. He had a chance to be paid double what he was being paid at the Saints. If any of us were in the same situation we would have all done the same.

I agree.

3 grand finals (4 including the replay) and 4 (maybe 5) preliminary finals in 7 years of coaching.

No different to Bob Rose. Or Blighty after he left the Cats.

Lyon's gameplan may have some shortcomings in finals, particularly in kicking a winning score. That's an entirely valid debate.

But the guy sh|ts all over Eade/Northey/Wallace. Those guys coached a few prelims and were nowhere near a premiership.

Most people in the industry rate Lyon as an outstanding coach, and I agree.

Blight won back to back flags in his first two years at the Crows winning flags from 4th and 5th on the ladder. He was a god damn genius. They also won by 5 goals both times.

Lyon will never win a flag at Freo.

Comparing Lyon to Blight shows how deluded some people are on Lyon.

Lyon aint no genius. If you want to comfort yourself with the bounce of the ball and the toe poke or whatever go right ahead. The fact is we werent quite good enough and relied on too few.

Lyon doesn't look at people in the eye and walks funnily.

That says enough for me.

Rot in hell!

[st.byron]

So, while we negotiated with his manager to extend his contract, he accepted the Freo offer. Even his manager was in the dark.

So, no, I'm not a rap.

This. Devious. Lying. No integrity.

[Bunk_Moreland]

What Lyon did, in order to improve the defensive aspect of the team - was to reduce the offensive impact of these guys.

Contrary to popular belief, flag teams over the years have been littered with average players. What all flag teams have gas though, without exception - is superstars. We had that in spades, but I believe that in Lyon's flawed philosophy he believed that keeping the opposition's score low was worth sacrificing our ability to be offensive.

I don't think that has changed.

The stats don't bear this out. It is inferring that the Saints were a dower defensive slogging team when in fact they were pretty free scoring especially in 2009

Total points -

2009 - 2197 points

Ave 16.5 goals a game

2010 - 1934 points

Ave 14.65 goals a game

this was without Riewoldt for 12+ games

2014 - 1480

Average 11.21 goals a game

The 2009 total for would be the second best in 2014 only bettered by Hawthorn.

[Scollop]

The form ladder probably had Richmond on top in many of the stats that don't matter (i.e. the home and away Rounds leading up to yesterday).

How do you think the Tiger's fans will remember 2014? Sure there was a great feeling of achievement getting there, but you don't want to be playing 9 eliminations in a row. It takes its toll in the end.

More importantly, who is to blame for the way they finished in the game yesterday and perhaps the predicament of where they were after round 13/14? It wasn't just injuries to key players, Hardwick didn't shy away from responsibility and he openly admitted some tweaking with their game plan. Some coaches just like to blame everyone else but themselves.

[SaintPav]

some people have more morality in their little finger then ross Lyon has as a whole and thats the difference.

Cos he changed jobs?

And acted on a clause that was built in to suit the club but instead ended up being the clubs downfall because another employer recognised his value in the industry.

You can go the moral debate all year long but you have no idea what type of person, father, husband he is.

So he took a job that gave him more money and a longer term?

Right.

If anything, it makes him a good operator and assists in sorting his finances out.

Now he just needs me as a Fund Manager and I will sort him out good.

I'm sure you could sort Rosco out with some independent, ethical and honest financial planning advice.

You sound just like the type who would place the interests of your clients above the interests of your own...

What high growth product would you get Ross into

TICKET

CLIPPER?

[stinger]

I will always blame Lyon for losing our grand finals at the selection table.

Playing the likes of McQualter and Eddy ahead of such players as Gwilt, Geary and others.

He virtually admitted his mistake after the 2010 grandfinal by delisting both players after playing them in both grand finals.

Also imagine if we had Ball in our grand final team in 2010 instead of Eddy or if he hadn't left Ball on the bench in the last quarter of the 2009 grand final when we were over-run.

exactly....spot on mate.....also playing that girl at fullback after he had been in hospital on a drip all night...no wonder maxie went to the filth and spilled his guts about our game plan...

[stinger]

What Lyon did, in order to improve the defensive aspect of the team - was to reduce the offensive impact of these guys.

Contrary to popular belief, flag teams over the years have been littered with average players. What all flag teams have gas though, without exception - is superstars. We had that in spades, but I believe that in Lyon's flawed philosophy he believed that keeping the opposition's score low was worth sacrificing our ability to be offensive.

I don't think that has changed.

The stats don't bear this out. It is inferring that the Saints were a dower defensive slogging team when in fact they were pretty free scoring especially in 2009

Total points -

2009 - 2197 points

Ave 16.5 goals a game

2010 - 1934 points

Ave 14.65 goals a game

this was without Riewoldt for 12+ games

2014 - 1480

Average 11.21 goals a game

The 2009 total for would be the second best in 2014 only bettered by Hawthorn.

i think we beat up on all the poorer teams ..not the top ones...but don't quote me..i might be completly wrong...

[loris]

And can I add Lyin appears a tad vain into the mix? Have you noticed he has had some plugs (hair transplant thingies) into the front of his noggin? Trying to arrest his receding hairline.

Plus his hair has got darker since he left the Saints.....must be applying a little bit of black nugget on the follicles too

Soon he'll be contacting Hird, to find out about anti-ageing pills and tanning mixtures.

Maybe Lyin should get some financial advice from Turd............ at least latter seems to be savvy in getting millions for doing nought

[stinger]

And can I add Lyin appears a tad vain into the mix? Have you noticed he has had some plugs (hair transplant thingies) into the front of his noggin? Trying to arrest his receding hairline.

Plus his hair has got darker since he left the Saints.....must be applying a little bit of black nugget on the follicles too

Soon he'll be contacting Hird, to find out about anti-ageing pills and tanning mixtures.

Maybe Lyin should get some financial advice from Turd............ at least latter seems to be savvy in getting millions for doing nought

[plugger66]

Its pretty simple really. Those without bias at all rate RL as a great coach. Those with bias like RL hates or those who rate RL shouldnt be taken notice of. i will go with the ex coaches and players who rate RL unless of course people think Rooy and Lenny are poor judges. We can all find faults or things that he did good because we are biased one way or another.

What I find hilarious is those who find fault in RL coaching are also pissed off either the way he left or that he left at all. Now that is impossible to understand. And i still say to those who were on this board back in 09 and 10, where were you posts have a go at RL then. There was many actually dont think there was any.

[Scollop]

Directors Cue:

a picture of some cherry kool-aid please