Sam Gilbert - re injured foot?

[Saint wagga]

Gilbert looked a forlorn figure on the bench with ice on his foot when he went off...does anyone know the extent of his injury and if it's a recurrence of the foot fracture? Terrible news for the young man if it is!

[dragit]

The way he came off - absolutely fuming, you would expect that it is another serious foot problem.

Can these injuries become career ending? has been a whole season now.

[saintspremiers]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

[The Redeemer]

I hope not. He is a rather useful player.

[Bluthy]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

[Bunk_Moreland]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

The doctors aren't fortune tellers. They cant tell if a player will reinjure. It does happen that players reinjure the same injury. He has trained, got to full fitness, had a game or two in the VFL and then three or four in the seniors.

That is probably three month of serious work on the foot without a problem. Doctors are not magicians and cant predict these thing if everything has been done correctly.

[Bluthy]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

The doctors aren't fortune tellers. They cant tell if a player will reinjure. It does happen that players reinjure the same injury. He has trained, got to full fitness, had a game or two in the VFL and then three or four in the seniors.

That is probably three month of serious work on the foot without a problem. Doctors are not magicians and cant predict these thing if everything has been done correctly.

Don't trot out that tired "fortune teller" s***. Its about playing percentages. He was injured, came back earlier than expected, reinjured the foot. Was out for virtually the whole year then with 5 games to play they put him back in. Why? What is there to gain with a player struggling with a serious injury like that? Take the conservative approach, and don't play him and let him get a full preseason with full healing. I think Richo pushes really hard for his senior players to go back in the team from injury asap (Gilbert, Stephen, Fisher, Armo - who was put back on the field with a serious gash to his knee!) to be competitive and it worries me. We need to learn from this and stop the short term thinking. I don't think Stephen is 100%. He's not doing the pack dancing that was his trademark. Yes we want to be as competitive as possible but I haven't liked the risks we have taken with some players.

I wonder what Gilberts trade value is now - a player who keeps reinjuring the same foot problem even though it was "signed off" as ok from docs.

[Bunk_Moreland]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

The doctors aren't fortune tellers. They cant tell if a player will reinjure. It does happen that players reinjure the same injury. He has trained, got to full fitness, had a game or two in the VFL and then three or four in the seniors.

That is probably three month of serious work on the foot without a problem. Doctors are not magicians and cant predict these thing if everything has been done correctly.

Don't trot out that tired "fortune teller" s***. Its about playing percentages. He was injured, came back earlier than expected, reinjured the foot. Was out for virtually the whole year then with 5 games to play they put him back in. Why? What is there to gain with a player struggling with a serious injury like that? Take the conservative approach, and don't play him and let him get a full preseason with full healing. I think Richo pushes really hard for his senior players to go back in the team from injury asap (Gilbert, Stephen, Fisher, Armo - who was put back on the field with a serious gash to his knee!) to be competitive and it worries me. We need to learn from this and stop the short term thinking. I don't think Stephen is 100%. He's not doing the pack dancing that was his trademark. Yes we want to be as competitive as possible but I haven't liked the risks we have taken with some players.

I wonder what Gilberts trade value is now - a player who keeps reinjuring the same foot problem even though it was "signed off" as ok from docs.

Its not s*** at all. Can you point me to a post of yours querying Gilberts return before yesterdays injury?

Fair dinkum hindsight is a wonderful thing. And heres a hint for free, players play with injury all the time.

How do you know that the approach the medical staff took was not the conservative approach? Are you part of the medical team? Really you are just talking from a basis of ignorance nased on hindsight.

As for getting plaers back ASAP. Every single team does the same thing. As for Armo's injury (the cut) so are you saying any player who is cut should not go out and play. Could you predict that he would get an infection from that cut?

Really, just because your moaning has been questioned, it is not good enough to dismiss what I have posted. It is factual.

Lets face it, your argument is a straw man nonsense, made up with the benefit of hindsight. If you are so in tune with Gilbo's injury, why didn't you post about it before it happened. He trained for weeks with no problem, he player VFL with no problem, he played for a month in the AFL with no problems, but suddenly it is all the medico's fault because he reinjured a foot.

Marvellous work Bluthy

[Con Gorozidis]

Im with Bluthy.
Noone expects Drs to be fortune tellers but its all about playing the %es. They know the injury type and they know the stats on it.
I smelt bs when we first bought him back earlier and were given the astonishingly unscientific and un-dr-like explanation that he was a 'good healer'. Really? What kind of f*cking hocus pocus bs is that? Noone buys that crap except people who also believe in magnets amd other miracle cures and super powers on late night tv.
So yeah fair to say there is something very very suss about saints medical staff.
and given what we now know goes on at other clubs id like to know whether its real drs making these decisions or other 'medical staff' eg physios etc who can teeter closer to the brink of quackery.
I just cant imagine any sensible dr ever trotting out a line of 'nah dont worry what the stats say hes a good healer'.
It would be bizarre.

[Bluthy]

Suck it BM

Re: LTI. Hickey on, Gilbert off

Postby Bluthy » Fri 01 Aug 2014 8:29pm



St DAC wrote:

Bluthy wrote:I don't see the point of Gilbert returning this year. Let him do a good preseason and get his body right for next year. We can keep testing out Shenton, Michington, Roberton, Simpkin etc to see if they will make the cut for next year.


If that's the case then why play any senior player again this year? We can see what the lesser lights have to offer; we already know about the senior players.

Of course we'd get smacked each week, the sponsors wouldn't be happy, supporters would piss and moan (see this joint after a loss ...)

IMO we play, as a standard position, the best team we can, with the priviso that we can carry a couple of extra kids we think will be long tewrm players. But basically our near-best team available.
Nice extrapolating a comment about a specific player into a ridiculous generalisation. Its specifically about a player that has been out almost all year with a chronic injury, that was rushed back earlier in the year and did further damage, won't get genuine AFL match fitness for another 3 or 4 games so he'll be cherry ripe for the last round! Makes so much sense to risk getting him back in the team as we make our late finals push. Its stinks of pimping him for a trade.

Only posting this because by a fluke its one of the few of my predictions that (sadly in this case) came true. Richo keeps going on that for the young players to develop properly they need to be in a competitive team, which I get. There are no clear answers about returning injured players but its all about risk/rewards and I couldn't see a clear enough reward for getting him back for 5 games. With a few months off now he should be able to get it right hopefully and have a cracker 2015 (at our club or a different one)

[gringo]

In hindsight it's a terrible decision. Our docs are a little questionable to me. Roberton was sent back on last year barely coherent with concussion and then played out the season with a bad ankle eventually reinjuring it very badly against Freo. We need a review even if nothing comes of it.

[Con Gorozidis]

Good call bluthy.
Was a good prediction.

[Life Long Saint]

Gee...I hope another foot injury doesn't affect his kicking.

[MC Gusto]

are you serious? i missed this. Devastating if it is another fracture and yes I agree a review of our medico's and fitness staff is required. What is the worse that could come of it?

If it is another fracture that would be truly upsetting for the bloke.

[Saint wagga]

INnjury management from outside the inner circle is all speculation. To be honest, a lot of the management on returning is up to players and their ability to be honest about how they're body feels and pulls up after sessions games. There is an onus on players to be 100% staight up to any physio or medico. If they undercall they're symptoms in recovery they run the risk of being progressed quicker than they should and increase the risk of re-injury...

In Gilberts case, if he was staright up and cherry ripe the whole way but just blew his foot up yesterday that's stinking luck ( well not entirely luck as you'd always have a slight weak spot somewhere in the foot following repeat fractures)...if he's ignored or misreported his recovery symptoms to get on the park quicker, as a senior player, thats disaapointing but you can also understand that here's a guy who plays footy for aliving and the more he plays and the better he plays, the more he earns. He would also want to get out there and play Footy during the season!! The mind can do funny things and overide sensible hindsight descions...my two cents worth on this

[Bunk_Moreland]

Suck it BM

Re: LTI. Hickey on, Gilbert off

Postby Bluthy » Fri 01 Aug 2014 8:29pm



St DAC wrote:

Bluthy wrote:I don't see the point of Gilbert returning this year. Let him do a good preseason and get his body right for next year. We can keep testing out Shenton, Michington, Roberton, Simpkin etc to see if they will make the cut for next year.


If that's the case then why play any senior player again this year? We can see what the lesser lights have to offer; we already know about the senior players.

Of course we'd get smacked each week, the sponsors wouldn't be happy, supporters would piss and moan (see this joint after a loss ...)

IMO we play, as a standard position, the best team we can, with the priviso that we can carry a couple of extra kids we think will be long tewrm players. But basically our near-best team available.
Nice extrapolating a comment about a specific player into a ridiculous generalisation. Its specifically about a player that has been out almost all year with a chronic injury, that was rushed back earlier in the year and did further damage, won't get genuine AFL match fitness for another 3 or 4 games so he'll be cherry ripe for the last round! Makes so much sense to risk getting him back in the team as we make our late finals push. Its stinks of pimping him for a trade.

Only posting this because by a fluke its one of the few of my predictions that (sadly in this case) came true. Richo keeps going on that for the young players to develop properly they need to be in a competitive team, which I get. There are no clear answers about returning injured players but its all about risk/rewards and I couldn't see a clear enough reward for getting him back for 5 games. With a few months off now he should be able to get it right hopefully and have a cracker 2015 (at our club or a different one)

lol - well done, you did flag it prior to the injury.

Next weeks tattslotto numbers by any chance?

And considering you are such a medical giant, can you guarantee us that even if Gilbert didn't play at all this season, he wouldn't have re-injured the same foot next season/

What would be your advice then? Not play him for two years just in case?

[SaintPav]

Doesn't this type of break have a have a high riisk of re injury?

Sam obviously is at a higher risk of reinjury whenever he comes back.

Beats me how people can comment about medical stuff with such certainty without being close to it.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Doesn't this type of break have a have a high riisk of re injury?

Sam obviously is at a higher risk of reinjury whenever he comes back.

Beats me how people can comment about medical stuff with such certainty without being close to it.

because the medico's are obvious hacks who deliberately put Sam in danger of re-injury.

Why cant you see that, after all he only did 3 months of rehab, modified then full training, games in the VFL, and then four games in the AFL.

Patently obvious he was going to re-injure the foot, because he obviously wasn't monitored because, you know, our medico's are just no good.

Makes perfect sense

[Con Gorozidis]

Doesn't this type of break have a have a high riisk of re injury?

Sam obviously is at a higher risk of reinjury whenever he comes back.

Beats me how people can comment about medical stuff with such certainty without being close to it.

because the medico's are obvious hacks who deliberately put Sam in danger of re-injury.

Why cant you see that, after all he only did 3 months of rehab, modified then full training, games in the VFL, and then four games in the AFL.

Patently obvious he was going to re-injure the foot, because he obviously wasn't monitored because, you know, our medico's are just no good.

Makes perfect sense

Rant and rave all you like.
The fact is there are statistics for the prognosis on his injury type that would be/are widely known. Well established benchmarks and the club bought him back under these benchmarks.

Now you can rant and rave about club medicos know best or the fans are outsiders and this and that and this that but its all white noise.

Did he come back before established norms for that kind of injury? Yes.
End of debate.

[saintspremiers]

I think we all agree the amount of . players injured and amount of games out is too high. Every year there will be injuries and players missing, but this year appears higher than for several years past.

IMO it could be due to high training loads during the season that young players are subjected to under Richo. If so, that may be fine for the longer term.

As for the older players who aren't going through that process, it's either bad luck or poor management.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Doesn't this type of break have a have a high riisk of re injury?

Sam obviously is at a higher risk of reinjury whenever he comes back.

Beats me how people can comment about medical stuff with such certainty without being close to it.

because the medico's are obvious hacks who deliberately put Sam in danger of re-injury.

Why cant you see that, after all he only did 3 months of rehab, modified then full training, games in the VFL, and then four games in the AFL.

Patently obvious he was going to re-injure the foot, because he obviously wasn't monitored because, you know, our medico's are just no good.

Makes perfect sense

Rant and rave all you like.
The fact is there are statistics for the prognosis on his injury type that would be/are widely known. Well established benchmarks and the club bought him back under these benchmarks.

Now you can rant and rave about club medicos know best or the fans are outsiders and this and that and this that but its all white noise.

Did he come back before established norms for that kind of injury? Yes.
End of debate.

Can you give me your diagnosis of the injury? After all you must be a medical practitioner who was part of the team treating Gilbert.

Can you also give me a link to these "established norms" you are talking about?

Could you direct me to the peer reviewed papers on this specific injury and the time frame specified for this type of injury?

Is there differences in recovery time between a AFL player and a Rugby player for example, or a cyclist, or a shot putter?

Can you tell me the program Gilbert was on and how the incompetent medico's circumvented this program?

Can you tell me how you know any of this except for wild speculation and conjecture?

lets face it Con, you know three fifths of f*** all and you are making BS up to make some flimsy argument.

You are not a medical practitioner at the football club, so you have not got a jot of evidence, except for your wild speculation.

Until you fully answer all of the above questions you have no credibility and look like incredibly foolish and not just a bit silly.

Debate reopened

[Con Gorozidis]

Doesn't this type of break have a have a high riisk of re injury?

Sam obviously is at a higher risk of reinjury whenever he comes back.

Beats me how people can comment about medical stuff with such certainty without being close to it.

because the medico's are obvious hacks who deliberately put Sam in danger of re-injury.

Why cant you see that, after all he only did 3 months of rehab, modified then full training, games in the VFL, and then four games in the AFL.

Patently obvious he was going to re-injure the foot, because he obviously wasn't monitored because, you know, our medico's are just no good.

Makes perfect sense

Rant and rave all you like.
The fact is there are statistics for the prognosis on his injury type that would be/are widely known. Well established benchmarks and the club bought him back under these benchmarks.

Now you can rant and rave about club medicos know best or the fans are outsiders and this and that and this that but its all white noise.

Did he come back before established norms for that kind of injury? Yes.
End of debate.

Can you give me your diagnosis of the injury? After all you must be a medical practitioner who was part of the team treating Gilbert.

Can you also give me a link to these "established norms" you are talking about?

Could you direct me to the peer reviewed papers on this specific injury and the time frame specified for this type of injury?

Is there differences in recovery time between a AFL player and a Rugby player for example, or a cyclist, or a shot putter?

Can you tell me the program Gilbert was on and how the incompetent medico's circumvented this program?

Can you tell me how you know any of this except for wild speculation and conjecture?

lets face it Con, you know three fifths of f*** all and you are making BS up to make some flimsy argument.

You are not a medical practitioner at the football club, so you have not got a jot of evidence, except for your wild speculation.

Until you fully answer all of the above questions you have no credibility and look like incredibly foolish and not just a bit silly.

Debate reopened

program? he had a busted foot ffs. you think they magically heal with magnets or massage or something? Like there is some secret way to make bones heal that only insiders know about?

There was also commentary from Doc Larkins at the time saying about the recovery time and saying Gilbert seemed to be coming back way too soon for that injury (fractured metatarsal). Is he also foolish?

Here is one for starters from a quick google search- but Ill guarantee I can get you plenty more if I could be assed wasting my time proving a point to an imbecile (which is always a waste of time and losing battle).

So quit your ranting. Quit your abuse and just shut the f*ck up.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9167925

Our results demonstrated that radiographic evidence of fracture healing was present in all patients by 65 days with 44 days representing the average elapsed time for such change. All patients returned to full weightbearing and full physical activity within 96 days.

96 days = 13 weeks.
Or do you believe Gilbo has super-human genetic 'healing powers'?
If so they should be cloning his DNA.

Either way its pretty fricking obvious his so called 'fast healing' super powers are complete crapola.
his bones heal just like everyone else - and he should have waited 13 weeks - which would have been around round 8.

[Con Gorozidis]

Here is another just from a websearch
and no way im wasting any more time following up getting actual medical studies to prove a point to an idiot. I do have access to a hospital library - but maybe you should email Doc Larkins or get yourself a study to prove me wrong

OR Just f*ck up


Bone healing may occur within 6 to 12 weeks; however the bone strength and the ability of the bone to sustain a heavy load may take up to several years (Chapman) Once healing has occurred, the individual may resume full activities of daily living. It is important to instruct the individual not to overload the fracture site until the bone has regained its full strength. The resumption of heavy work and sports should be guided by the treating physician.

http://www.mdguidelines.com/fracture-metatarsal-bones

Other studies - say
4-8 weeks NO activity
8-12 - functional brace
12-16 - gradual resumption of weight bearing activity

[plugger66]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

The doctors aren't fortune tellers. They cant tell if a player will reinjure. It does happen that players reinjure the same injury. He has trained, got to full fitness, had a game or two in the VFL and then three or four in the seniors.

That is probably three month of serious work on the foot without a problem. Doctors are not magicians and cant predict these thing if everything has been done correctly.

Don't trot out that tired "fortune teller" s***. Its about playing percentages. He was injured, came back earlier than expected, reinjured the foot. Was out for virtually the whole year then with 5 games to play they put him back in. Why? What is there to gain with a player struggling with a serious injury like that? Take the conservative approach, and don't play him and let him get a full preseason with full healing. I think Richo pushes really hard for his senior players to go back in the team from injury asap (Gilbert, Stephen, Fisher, Armo - who was put back on the field with a serious gash to his knee!) to be competitive and it worries me. We need to learn from this and stop the short term thinking. I don't think Stephen is 100%. He's not doing the pack dancing that was his trademark. Yes we want to be as competitive as possible but I haven't liked the risks we have taken with some players.

I wonder what Gilberts trade value is now - a player who keeps reinjuring the same foot problem even though it was "signed off" as ok from docs.

All hindsight stuff. Missed about 12 weeks after the second injury. Even after the first he missed 7 and experts on here said that type of injury takes about 6 to 8 weeks before you can play again. Why is Fisher playing now or is that alright because he hasnt got injured yet. What about jack after missing 3 weeks when they said 4 earlier. I know because they arent injured but once they are the hindsighters will say they stuffed up. the problem with the hindsighters is they dont know how many doctors and specialists have given him the all clear. By the way if Gilbert didnt play again this year I doubt he had much trade value anyway assuming the club are even slightly interested in trading him.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think I heard on the blower it is another fracture. How long do they take to heal?

I assume that eats into his Annual Leave period - does that mean he's entitled to extra leave and hence a shorter pre season?

So why the goddamn hell did they risk him!! Was it pimping him out for a trade!!! Oh no, the doctors had signed off on him like earlier in the year. We need to have a thorough review of our injury management and return policy. We are at the bottom of the ladder with literally nothing to play for (maybe a little pride). We should be ultra conservative in how players return. Very very disappointing that he many not get a full preseason now and be fully recovered and cherry ripe for 2015.

The doctors aren't fortune tellers. They cant tell if a player will reinjure. It does happen that players reinjure the same injury. He has trained, got to full fitness, had a game or two in the VFL and then three or four in the seniors.

That is probably three month of serious work on the foot without a problem. Doctors are not magicians and cant predict these thing if everything has been done correctly.

Don't trot out that tired "fortune teller" s***. Its about playing percentages. He was injured, came back earlier than expected, reinjured the foot. Was out for virtually the whole year then with 5 games to play they put him back in. Why? What is there to gain with a player struggling with a serious injury like that? Take the conservative approach, and don't play him and let him get a full preseason with full healing. I think Richo pushes really hard for his senior players to go back in the team from injury asap (Gilbert, Stephen, Fisher, Armo - who was put back on the field with a serious gash to his knee!) to be competitive and it worries me. We need to learn from this and stop the short term thinking. I don't think Stephen is 100%. He's not doing the pack dancing that was his trademark. Yes we want to be as competitive as possible but I haven't liked the risks we have taken with some players.

I wonder what Gilberts trade value is now - a player who keeps reinjuring the same foot problem even though it was "signed off" as ok from docs.

All hindsight stuff. Missed about 12 weeks after the second injury. Even after the first he missed 7 and experts on here said that type of injury takes about 6 to 8 weeks before you can play again. Why is Fisher playing now or is that alright because he hasnt got injured yet. What about jack after missing 3 weeks when they said 4 earlier. I know because they arent injured but once they are the hindsighters will say they stuffed up. the problem with the hindsighters is they dont know how many doctors and specialists have given him the all clear. By the way if Gilbert didnt play again this year I doubt he had much trade value anyway assuming the club are even slightly interested in trading him.

ok know it all - you tell me the names of the Drs who you categorically know directly and definitely told Gilbert he could play at the start of the year and what if any risks they advised him of at the time.
Names



I call bulls***.