Saints VFL standalone team delayed again

[Bunk_Moreland]

I was going to post - don't you two wreck another thread, however this thread was pretty f***ed up from the get go, so knock yourselves out.

[plugger66]

I was going to post - don't you two wreck another thread, however this thread was pretty f***ed up from the get go, so knock yourselves out.

Im going to plead not guilty on this one.

[dragit]

I reckon there have been much bigger factors in play for the sides who have won recent flags

Brisbane X 3 - massive salary cap
Sydney X 2 - massive salary cap
Geelong X 3 - the father-son years
Hawthorn X 2 - Priority picks
Collingwood - Priority picks
WCE X 1 - massive footy department spend

The standalone VFL side can't hurt, but it hasn't appeared to have done much for the Dogs or Tigers yet… both well behind North who have been split between 2 affiliations. Hawthorn have made the top 4 more often than not in the past 10 years without their own VFL side.

[plugger66]

I reckon there have been much bigger factors in play for the sides who have won recent flags

Brisbane X 3 - massive salary cap
Sydney X 2 - massive salary cap
Geelong X 3 - the father-son years
Hawthorn X 2 - Priority picks
Collingwood - Priority picks
WCE X 1 - massive footy department spend

The standalone VFL side can't hurt, but it hasn't appeared to have done much for the Dogs or Tigers yet… both well behind North who have been split between 2 affiliations. Hawthorn have made the top 4 more often than not in the past 10 years without their own VFL side.

Why wouldnt you do it if it cant hurt though. lets say Con was right about it only adding 5% . We would have loved that 5% in 09 and 10. I reckon it would definately add 5%. The question is can we afford to pay that much to get at least 5%. And its a bit early to talk about the Tigers and WB. i doubt even the best program will work immediately especially as those likely to get the benifits are the younger guys playing in the reserves and that is why we need to get it going ASAP. Hope they have the start of 2017 correct. And the Hawks basically run Box Hill.

[dragit]

I think we should do it and it appears we are building towards it…

But we are restricted financially & there's no point doing it if we can't run the thing properly.

We are in a massive, slow re-build… so I reckon an extra year with Sandy is the least of our worries.

[Dis Believer]

There have actually been some very salient points noted so far.

A stand alone VFL team would be an incremental factor in improved player development, there's no getting around that. How big a factor is open for debate. However, given that the ultimate success will be derived from the sum of a series of incremental improvements in our club and its processes, a delay in one increment is not disastrous. Given the trajectory we are on and the supposed timing of our next flag tilt I think a delay of 12 months in having a stand alone VFL team is inconsequential.

[plugger66]

There have actually been some very salient points noted so far.

A stand alone VFL team would be an incremental factor in improved player development, there's no getting around that. How big a factor is open for debate. However, given that the ultimate success will be derived from the sum of a series of incremental improvements in our club and its processes, a delay in one increment is not disastrous. Given the trajectory we are on and the supposed timing of our next flag tilt I think a delay of 12 months in having a stand alone VFL team is inconsequential.

Well I was planning to win the flag in 2016. Looks like I will have to wait until 2017 now. Not sure I will still be here then.

[Life Long Saint]

I reckon there have been much bigger factors in play for the sides who have won recent flags

Brisbane X 3 - massive salary cap
Sydney X 2 - massive salary cap
Geelong X 3 - the father-son years
Hawthorn X 2 - Priority picks
Collingwood - Priority picks
WCE X 1 - massive footy department spend

The standalone VFL side can't hurt, but it hasn't appeared to have done much for the Dogs or Tigers yet… both well behind North who have been split between 2 affiliations. Hawthorn have made the top 4 more often than not in the past 10 years without their own VFL side.

If you think that Collingwood won their flag because they got Alan Didak and Dale Thomas, you're delusional.

We had priority picks too...So it comes back to the difference between us and them...reserves teams.

It's not the stars that prove the difference in premiership teams...its the players that do their part so the stars can shine.
Other teams have them and we don't.
That has nothing to do with salary cap, father/son selections or priority picks. It has everything to do with player development.

[dragit]

I reckon there have been much bigger factors in play for the sides who have won recent flags

Brisbane X 3 - massive salary cap
Sydney X 2 - massive salary cap
Geelong X 3 - the father-son years
Hawthorn X 2 - Priority picks
Collingwood - Priority picks
WCE X 1 - massive footy department spend

The standalone VFL side can't hurt, but it hasn't appeared to have done much for the Dogs or Tigers yet… both well behind North who have been split between 2 affiliations. Hawthorn have made the top 4 more often than not in the past 10 years without their own VFL side.

If you think that Collingwood won their flag because they got Alan Didak and Dale Thomas, you're delusional.

We had priority picks too...So it comes back to the difference between us and them...reserves teams.

It's not the stars that prove the difference in premiership teams...its the players that do their part so the stars can shine.
Other teams have them and we don't.
That has nothing to do with salary cap, father/son selections or priority picks. It has everything to do with player development.

Delusional?
You're just embarrassing yourself now…
Didak wasn't a priority pick…
Cast your mind back to the 2010 grand finals (i know it's hard) Dale Thomas is probably their best player across the 2 games… In the drawn game he had 26 touches and 8 tackles - comfortably their best player.
Yes, and extra A grade player by way of a PP can be the difference in a flag or runners up.

Hawthorn - Hodge, Roughhead - take these guys out, they would have no recent flags.

Have you considered that the teams able to field a standalone, just happen to also be the richest clubs?

A fair bit goes into becoming a top 4 side, let alone a premiership team… Having a standalone reserves will be a minuscule factor. But carry on if you think it is the main thing holding us back.

[Cairnsman]

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA!

Don't go starting a discussion that includes percentages without getting me to check your figures first!

Geez!

[saintspremiers]

I concur! Little Johnny building up his cred with the battlers? By the way, bit of a cheap shot at building workers by SP in this thread.

Cheap shot my arse Jiggler. 25 RDOs a year, goinf5 offsite whenever it's above 35 degrees. These guys get it way too good.

Anyone with half a brain knows the building unions are too powerful for the good of the economy.

[Bunk_Moreland]

I concur! Little Johnny building up his cred with the battlers? By the way, bit of a cheap shot at building workers by SP in this thread.

Cheap shot my arse Jiggler. 25 RDOs a year, goinf5 offsite whenever it's above 35 degrees. These guys get it way too good.

Anyone with half a brain knows the building unions are too powerful for the good of the economy.

You are clueless when it comes to this type of work.

Really you embarrass yourself with your ignorance.

You wouldnt last 5 minutes on a worksite.

Too powerful pfft, Feral Hun reader here

So who are doing the Moorabbin refurb? Have you any idea?

Is it running over costs, over time?

Please fill us in, we are all ears.

Oh BTW ANY workplace conditions you enjoy was won by unions, but would you pay fee for these hard won rights?

Hardly. You should not get any sick leave or annual leave, or LSL or an 8 hour day or a minimum wage. If you want to be a parasite and get the benefits of the back of unionists and then slag them, yo are lower than a snakes belly, with no honour.

Your type are a cancer on society and hard working people.

Disgrace

[matrix]

We may argue but ya right.
Wouldn'tuhave a clue what unions have done for the average factory worker.

But has all the clues about how corrupt they are.


Wouldn't last a day at my work.
Thank unions for lsl, til, al, rdo, 38 hr weeks.
But by all means keep harping on with no idea so.

In fact make it law all non union get award wages and conditions
Watch the peanuts jump ship and cough up the ten bucks a week then.

Sorry for ramble.
Something thats important to me

[Bunk_Moreland]

We may argue but ya right.
Wouldn'tuhave a clue what unions have done for the average factory worker.

But has all the clues about how corrupt they are.


Wouldn't last a day at my work.
Thank unions for lsl, til, al, rdo, 38 hr weeks.
But by all means keep harping on with no idea so.

In fact make it law all non union get award wages and conditions
Watch the peanuts jump ship and cough up the ten bucks a week then.

Sorry for ramble.
Something thats important to me

I concur.

May not be in a union now, but am a member of a professional membership body, but I NEVER forget where I came from and what organised labour has done for the working man and women of our country.

I would rather these non unionists just say thank you and be on their way.

Or better still let them negotiate there own al, sl, lsl, hour of work, pay rates, oh&s and workers comp for themselves.

take the hard earned privileges won by others and then whinge about the very thing that won them their unearned entitlements.

Sick making

[Life Long Saint]

I reckon there have been much bigger factors in play for the sides who have won recent flags

Brisbane X 3 - massive salary cap
Sydney X 2 - massive salary cap
Geelong X 3 - the father-son years
Hawthorn X 2 - Priority picks
Collingwood - Priority picks
WCE X 1 - massive footy department spend

The standalone VFL side can't hurt, but it hasn't appeared to have done much for the Dogs or Tigers yet… both well behind North who have been split between 2 affiliations. Hawthorn have made the top 4 more often than not in the past 10 years without their own VFL side.

If you think that Collingwood won their flag because they got Alan Didak and Dale Thomas, you're delusional.

We had priority picks too...So it comes back to the difference between us and them...reserves teams.

It's not the stars that prove the difference in premiership teams...its the players that do their part so the stars can shine.
Other teams have them and we don't.
That has nothing to do with salary cap, father/son selections or priority picks. It has everything to do with player development.

Delusional?
You're just embarrassing yourself now…
Didak wasn't a priority pick…
Cast your mind back to the 2010 grand finals (i know it's hard) Dale Thomas is probably their best player across the 2 games… In the drawn game he had 26 touches and 8 tackles - comfortably their best player.
Yes, and extra A grade player by way of a PP can be the difference in a flag or runners up.

Hawthorn - Hodge, Roughhead - take these guys out, they would have no recent flags.

Have you considered that the teams able to field a standalone, just happen to also be the richest clubs?

A fair bit goes into becoming a top 4 side, let alone a premiership team… Having a standalone reserves will be a minuscule factor. But carry on if you think it is the main thing holding us back.

You're right on Didak...my mistake. But a HFF does not a premiership team make. I think Pendlebury, Swan and Jolly had a fair bit to do with victory. It also didn't help that they had one of our priority picks playing for them - depriving us of a midfielder and giving one to the opposition. Our other priority pick had a shocker.

Collingwood's lesser known players were far better than ours. Why? I have my theory.

Also, since when are Brisbane and Footscray among the richest clubs?

You can argue other excuses all you like but the numbers are damning. It is no fluke and plenty of clubs have had priority picks - including us. We couldn't seal the deal with Riewoldt and Ball...and they're two of the best ever priority picks.

[Con Gorozidis]

LLS
Didak wasnt a pp and in 2010 Ross Lyon described Thomas as the best player in the the entire comp.
So stop making up bs facts to suit ur story.

If it makes u feel emotionally secure to think that all we need is a stand alone VFL side to be good again thats fine.
Everyone needs an emotional quick fix to avoid thee cold hard reality of where we sit.

Some on here still hold on to an 09 revival. Some blame the umps. Some blame the father son etc.
Many are seeking an external cop out rather than stare the truth in the eyes.

My view is we will only improve from the ground up. This will takes years of hard work and smart mgt.

The idea of a swans transition is long gone. The idea of the old brigade bringing the youngsters through is long gone.

But hey everyone wants an emotional blanky.

Id rather be last with a bunch of kids than last with a bunch of superannuation collectors who were good 5 years ago and are now past it.

[Life Long Saint]

LLS
Didak wasnt a pp and in 2010 Ross Lyon described Thomas as the best player in the the entire comp.
So stop making up bs facts to suit ur story.

If it makes u feel emotionally secure to think that all we need is a stand alone VFL side to be good again thats fine.
Everyone needs an emotional quick fix to avoid thee cold hard reality of where we sit.

Some on here still hold on to an 09 revival. Some blame the umps. Some blame the father son etc.
Many are seeking an external cop out rather than stare the truth in the eyes.

My view is we will only improve from the ground up. This will takes years of hard work and smart mgt.

The idea of a swans transition is long gone. The idea of the old brigade bringing the youngsters through is long gone.

But hey everyone wants an emotional blanky.

Id rather be last with a bunch of kids than last with a bunch of superannuation collectors who were good 5 years ago and are now past it.

Already acknowledged the Didak error...Thanks for that, Eric Pearce.

I don't feel insecure because we don't have a reserves team. If you want to ignore the data, then go ahead.
The numbers show that teams with their own reserves team are more successful than those that don't have one.

I'm sure that's why Collingwood formed their own a few years before they won the flag. I am also sure that's why Richmond, Essendon and the Bulldogs have formed one. And I am also sure that's why West Coast and Fremantle have been lobbying for their own reserves teams too.

I don't disagree with the improving from the ground up sentiments you've expressed. But we are where we are because our system of developing players was poor. Our recruits were clearly not able to play football the way that Ross Lyon wanted them to play. Why? Ability? Unlikely. They would have all been tested at draft camp and performed well enough for the recruiters to pick them.
So it must be something else.

The club clearly recognises that fact and are working towards getting their own VFL side.

So it is clearly not an "emotional blanky".

[Cairnsman]

We may argue but ya right.
Wouldn'tuhave a clue what unions have done for the average factory worker.

But has all the clues about how corrupt they are.


Wouldn't last a day at my work.
Thank unions for lsl, til, al, rdo, 38 hr weeks.
But by all means keep harping on with no idea so.

In fact make it law all non union get award wages and conditions
Watch the peanuts jump ship and cough up the ten bucks a week then.

Sorry for ramble.
Something thats important to me

I concur.

May not be in a union now, but am a member of a professional membership body, but I NEVER forget where I came from and what organised labour has done for the working man and women of our country.

I would rather these non unionists just say thank you and be on their way.

Or better still let them negotiate there own al, sl, lsl, hour of work, pay rates, oh&s and workers comp for themselves.

take the hard earned privileges won by others and then whinge about the very thing that won them their unearned entitlements.

Sick making

As someone that negotiates commercial agreements in 5 states I can say with a fair degree of experience on the matter that Victoria is by far one of the least attractive places to do business because of unions. But to be fair it's not only the unions, it is also made very difficult because of government over legislation and regulation. I'm all for employee representation but I think the union establishment is still living in the "united we stand, divided we fall" era.

There are a lot of employees that would be much better represented by professionals qualified and skilled to do so rather than some lazy, incompetent, angry and bitter union representative that finds it hard to spell his own name but can recite every clause of his legal rights.

rant over!

[dragit]

But we are where we are because our system of developing players was poor.

Absolutely disagree...

The biggest factor of our current predicament is poor recruiting combined with very little decent draft picks for a decade.

[dragit]

That's 95% for the cairnsman.

[Life Long Saint]

But we are where we are because our system of developing players was poor.

Absolutely disagree...

The biggest factor of our current predicament is poor recruiting combined with very little decent draft picks for a decade.

Why can other clubs turn late draft picks and rookies into good, serviceable players and we can't?
It's like the argument of breeding v environment.

[WinnersOnly]

History repeating itself....

Saints administration and financial management = train wreck!

[amusingname]

But we are where we are because our system of developing players was poor.

Absolutely disagree...

The biggest factor of our current predicament is poor recruiting combined with very little decent draft picks for a decade.

Why can other clubs turn late draft picks and rookies into good, serviceable players and we can't?
It's like the argument of breeding v environment.

Milne was a rookie (or supp list), so were Dawson, Geary, Jones, Curren who were all or still are at least serviceable players, with Simpkin, Dunnell still at the club at least, so I would say we have done as well or better then many clubs in that regard. In terms of late draft picks, I agree we have not done that well with those, with Fisher and Gwilt being the shining lights of late picks from a while ago.

[dragit]

But we are where we are because our system of developing players was poor.

Absolutely disagree...

The biggest factor of our current predicament is poor recruiting combined with very little decent draft picks for a decade.

Why can other clubs turn late draft picks and rookies into good, serviceable players and we can't?
It's like the argument of breeding v environment.

We can also turn late picks and rookies into serviceable players… ever heard of Stephen Milne? Sam Fisher? Jack Steven?

We currently have Weller, Templeton, Curren & Shenton who fingers crossed, may become serviceable or even good players…

All clubs have some wins late in the draft and some fails early in the draft, unfortunately we had a number of successive years where we completely failed at the draft… if you pick the wrong players, no amount of nurturing will make them good AFL players.

If we'd taken some of these:
Dangerfield instead of McEvoy
Zaharakis or Beams instead of Lynch
Fyfe or Carlisle instead of trading for Lovett
Christensen instead of Winmar
Darling instead of Cripps
etc etc

We wouldn't even be talking about development, as we'd likely still be in the top 4, regardless of a VFL standalone side or not.

You pick spuds, they're still spuds even after a polish.

[matrix]

people do realize that unions are talking for the people right?
so when unions are 'hard to get along' with, in actual fact you should be saying your employees are hard to get along with
then you should ask the question why

because you prob havent treated them right


ill go back to my blanky now