Sadly

[FQF]

The only bright spot for is that when we lost that last Grand Final, Port were as much of a rabble as we are now, maybe even worse.
But I think there is more discomfort to come before we start getting our hopes up.
The Bulldogs have gone backwards, GWS haven't gone forward, Richmond have returned to the rabble, the Bummers aren't going to win one for a long time, neither are North. The Weagles had a one season flash in the pan and are back with the rabble, they have won as many games as we have since we met them.
Again, our hopes and our clubs hopes are more in the hands of the recruiters and administrators, because it is there decisions that are going to determine how bad this down time is.
Let's just hope we have a great trade period and pinch one of those big forwards from GWS or Gold Coast plus draft smartly.
With free agency, good honest players is what we want now, I don't want to get a superstar that takes up our salary cap like a Chris Judd, unless of course we put them on a ridiculous 10 year deal that sees them playing to the same age as Dustin Fletcher.

Watched GWS the last two weeks and I think they've gone forward. They've been very competitive and have shown signs of things to come. I'm afraid they would comfortably beat us right now.

[thejiggingsaint]

The Saints will win six games (minimum) in season 2014! GO Saints! (To hell with the rest!)

[3rd generation saint]

Let's face it, right now, why some sides are getting excited about September, we get excited by October and November.
Remember how we were during the trade and draft period after the 2000 season.
Gee it would be nice to have draft where we get the likes of Riewoldt, Kosi etc, plus pick up a Hammil, G Train and a handy Brett Voss.
That's where the ball started rolling before.

[samuraisaint]

due to us having the hardest draw in the afl now due to fixturing, who do you honestly see us beating? we play Geelong at Geelong, Sydney at the SCG, North in Tasmania, Adelaide in Adelaide, Richmond at the MCG, Gold Coast in QLD. Can't see any wins amongst that lot. And reckon Geelong, Sydney, Adelaide and North could conceivably beat us by 100 plus points based on evidence so far.
The next tier of games are those we should at least be competitive for a while in; Freo and Richmond at Etihad.
So the three games in which we are some chance are West Coast at Etihad, Footscray at Etihad, and Richmond at Etihad. If we win teo of those three we will avoid the spoon, but due to the fact that despite finishing third last last year and playing return fixtures against the other bottom four clubs, we are up against it I would argue.

Before the year started I think our draw was seen as a middle of the road draw. Brisbane was seen as clearly the hardest. Im sure someone can find a link to that story. Anyway the fixture isnt the issue because we would lose to any side at the moment and probably by a fair margin. We need some experience back and some patience. A lot actually.

we finished third last in 2013. This year we play the other four bottom sides from 2013 once. No return fixtures against the bottom four sides. I thought the AFL were goint to make the system fairer?

[plugger66]

due to us having the hardest draw in the afl now due to fixturing, who do you honestly see us beating? we play Geelong at Geelong, Sydney at the SCG, North in Tasmania, Adelaide in Adelaide, Richmond at the MCG, Gold Coast in QLD. Can't see any wins amongst that lot. And reckon Geelong, Sydney, Adelaide and North could conceivably beat us by 100 plus points based on evidence so far.
The next tier of games are those we should at least be competitive for a while in; Freo and Richmond at Etihad.
So the three games in which we are some chance are West Coast at Etihad, Footscray at Etihad, and Richmond at Etihad. If we win teo of those three we will avoid the spoon, but due to the fact that despite finishing third last last year and playing return fixtures against the other bottom four clubs, we are up against it I would argue.

Before the year started I think our draw was seen as a middle of the road draw. Brisbane was seen as clearly the hardest. Im sure someone can find a link to that story. Anyway the fixture isnt the issue because we would lose to any side at the moment and probably by a fair margin. We need some experience back and some patience. A lot actually.

we finished third last in 2013. This year we play the other four bottom sides from 2013 once. No return fixtures against the bottom four sides. I thought the AFL were goint to make the system fairer?

Think it was broken down into groups of 6. We must play the 5th and 6th bottom sides twice. We cant play ourselves so there goes one of the bottom 4. I think thats just luck of the draw. If we played GWS or melbourne again we would lose now anyway. Brisbane at home we could possibly win but they didnt finish in the bottom 6.

[Johnny Member]

So do you only start when we had 18 clubs because it was only 14 at the start. Seems a bit of a shame that Coleman's records dont count or that players who played in both comps only count games and goals in the second comp. The WAFL isnt counted because no AFL club played in it. The VFL had all teams in the AFL.

AFL records should start from 1987 when the AFL became a totally different comp - a national comp with a draft and a salary cap.

VFL records should cease at the same time.

Clubs beating their chests about how great they were under the old system, as well as clubs bemoaning how woeful they were under the old system are free to do so - but these old records under an old system from a defunct competition have nothing to do with the clubs in the new current national competition with an entirely different system.


As for players, that's a totally different discussion. And really one that I don't particularly care about.

But as for club records, Carlton won 15 (or whatever it is) VFL flags. Well done, they were a great VFL club in a bygone comp of a bygone era. But they have won 1 AFL flag.

Two very, very different things.

And someone telling me how great they are because they were successful in a comp that disappeared nearly 30 years ago, doesn't really hold much weight. As I said earlier, it's like someone hanging their hat on their junior footy career!

Same as us. We were a very ordinary VFL club, but we've been a pretty good AFL club.

[plugger66]

So do you only start when we had 18 clubs because it was only 14 at the start. Seems a bit of a shame that Coleman's records dont count or that players who played in both comps only count games and goals in the second comp. The WAFL isnt counted because no AFL club played in it. The VFL had all teams in the AFL.

AFL records should start from 1987 when the AFL became a totally different comp - a national comp with a draft and a salary cap.

VFL records should cease at the same time.

Clubs beating their chests about how great they were under the old system, as well as clubs bemoaning how woeful they were under the old system are free to do so - but these old records under an old system from a defunct competition have nothing to do with the clubs in the new current national competition with an entirely different system.


As for players, that's a totally different discussion. And really one that I don't particularly care about.

But as for club records, Carlton won 15 (or whatever it is) VFL flags. Well done, they were a great VFL club in a bygone comp of a bygone era. But they have won 1 AFL flag.

Two very, very different things.

And someone telling me how great they are because they were successful in a comp that disappeared nearly 30 years ago, doesn't really hold much weight. As I said earlier, it's like someone hanging their hat on their junior footy career!

Same as us. We were a very ordinary VFL club, but we've been a pretty good AFL club.

Its just that you mentioned players a couple of times in the previous comment so of course I thought you mentioned that. Its sad that we havent won a flag even though we have been good. Dont care what other clubs have done but I do care that we have no lost our only flag however bad we were in that era.

[saintspremiers]

For all our infamous reputation as the wooden spooner specialists we have 'won' just one! One solitary Woden spoon in the AFL. Carlton have won three.
I don't want another. 17th and I'll be happy. 18th? Rather peed off.

Love stats. Why bother with the other 92 years of VFL history!

As you were saying, we've won zero AFL flags whilst Carlton have won one.

Not sure if that is meant sarcastically it not, but I'll take it on face value.

Why would you include VFL history when talking about the current clubs?

Do we include a WAFL players stats when they debut in the AFL? Of course not. It's a different comp with different opposition and different conditions. They're still facts and history won't forget them, but they're irrelevant when talking about the player's achievements in the AFL.

Same with clubs.


It's like a junior footballer kicking 10 every week then we he gets in to the seniors can't use his size and intimidation anymore and can't get a kick. Or vice versa when a skilful young kid struggles as a junior then blooms as he matures.

Once you hit the seniors, your stats as a junior don't mean s***.


The VFL was a junior comp compared to the AFL where rich clubs could simply buy players and ultimately success, and they only competed against 11 other clubs.

The rules are different now. It's the big national comp now where you're up against 17 other clubs, and play by the same rules as everyone else (to a degree). You might have been a big shot under the old system, but that doesn't mean jack.

What you did as a kid, has no relevance to today.

Oh man - possibly the worst thing I've read on this forum.

Agree.

Those who don't count VFL stats from 1897 as part of the current AFL setup are fools.

[Johnny Member]

Two things:

Firstly in regards to me mentioning players, what I did was use analogies. It's a common way of expressing a point of view.


Secondly, lost our flag??

What are you talking about??


Did you even read what I wrote?

[saintspremiers]

The Saints will win six games (minimum) in season 2014! GO Saints! (To hell with the rest!)

Are you on the gin again Dave lol?!

Who exactly will we beat to win 3 out of our last 11? Remember a lot of players have long term injuries and won't feature much this season.

I'll bet plugger's combi van on us not winning 3 games for the remainder of this season! (Mods - this is a joke bet and one which plugger and I have good natured history on and is not baiting).

[Johnny Member]

For all our infamous reputation as the wooden spooner specialists we have 'won' just one! One solitary Woden spoon in the AFL. Carlton have won three.
I don't want another. 17th and I'll be happy. 18th? Rather peed off.

Love stats. Why bother with the other 92 years of VFL history!

As you were saying, we've won zero AFL flags whilst Carlton have won one.

Not sure if that is meant sarcastically it not, but I'll take it on face value.

Why would you include VFL history when talking about the current clubs?

Do we include a WAFL players stats when they debut in the AFL? Of course not. It's a different comp with different opposition and different conditions. They're still facts and history won't forget them, but they're irrelevant when talking about the player's achievements in the AFL.

Same with clubs.


It's like a junior footballer kicking 10 every week then we he gets in to the seniors can't use his size and intimidation anymore and can't get a kick. Or vice versa when a skilful young kid struggles as a junior then blooms as he matures.

Once you hit the seniors, your stats as a junior don't mean s***.


The VFL was a junior comp compared to the AFL where rich clubs could simply buy players and ultimately success, and they only competed against 11 other clubs.

The rules are different now. It's the big national comp now where you're up against 17 other clubs, and play by the same rules as everyone else (to a degree). You might have been a big shot under the old system, but that doesn't mean jack.

What you did as a kid, has no relevance to today.

Oh man - possibly the worst thing I've read on this forum.

Agree.

Those who don't count VFL stats from 1897 as part of the current AFL setup are fools.

Can you please explain in some detail, why you think VFL records would be included and relevant when talking about the AFL?

[samuraisaint]

due to us having the hardest draw in the afl now due to fixturing, who do you honestly see us beating? we play Geelong at Geelong, Sydney at the SCG, North in Tasmania, Adelaide in Adelaide, Richmond at the MCG, Gold Coast in QLD. Can't see any wins amongst that lot. And reckon Geelong, Sydney, Adelaide and North could conceivably beat us by 100 plus points based on evidence so far.
The next tier of games are those we should at least be competitive for a while in; Freo and Richmond at Etihad.
So the three games in which we are some chance are West Coast at Etihad, Footscray at Etihad, and Richmond at Etihad. If we win teo of those three we will avoid the spoon, but due to the fact that despite finishing third last last year and playing return fixtures against the other bottom four clubs, we are up against it I would argue.

Before the year started I think our draw was seen as a middle of the road draw. Brisbane was seen as clearly the hardest. Im sure someone can find a link to that story. Anyway the fixture isnt the issue because we would lose to any side at the moment and probably by a fair margin. We need some experience back and some patience. A lot actually.

we finished third last in 2013. This year we play the other four bottom sides from 2013 once. No return fixtures against the bottom four sides. I thought the AFL were goint to make the system fairer?

Think it was broken down into groups of 6. We must play the 5th and 6th bottom sides twice. We cant play ourselves so there goes one of the bottom 4. I think thats just luck of the draw. If we played GWS or melbourne again we would lose now anyway. Brisbane at home we could possibly win but they didnt finish in the bottom 6.

Though we could also beat the Bulldogs twice I think - especially when we get a few players back.

[Spinner]

So do you only start when we had 18 clubs because it was only 14 at the start. Seems a bit of a shame that Coleman's records dont count or that players who played in both comps only count games and goals in the second comp. The WAFL isnt counted because no AFL club played in it. The VFL had all teams in the AFL.

AFL records should start from 1987 when the AFL became a totally different comp - a national comp with a draft and a salary cap.

VFL records should cease at the same time.

Clubs beating their chests about how great they were under the old system, as well as clubs bemoaning how woeful they were under the old system are free to do so - but these old records under an old system from a defunct competition have nothing to do with the clubs in the new current national competition with an entirely different system.


As for players, that's a totally different discussion. And really one that I don't particularly care about.

But as for club records, Carlton won 15 (or whatever it is) VFL flags. Well done, they were a great VFL club in a bygone comp of a bygone era. But they have won 1 AFL flag.

Two very, very different things.

And someone telling me how great they are because they were successful in a comp that disappeared nearly 30 years ago, doesn't really hold much weight. As I said earlier, it's like someone hanging their hat on their junior footy career!

Same as us. We were a very ordinary VFL club, but we've been a pretty good AFL club.

Keep telling yourself that. It's quite humerus.

[Johnny Member]

Keep telling myself that? Not sure what that means??

It has no bearing on me.

I'm merely expressing a point of view, whereas I find records from a defunct competition and system, to be irrelevant when discussing the AFL.

Different competition. Different rules. Different system.

[Johnny Member]

Do you reckon the Adelaide Crows give a stuff about what Carlton (for example) did in a Victorian 12 club comp that was wound down over 30 years ago?

[plugger66]

Do you reckon the Adelaide Crows give a stuff about what Carlton (for example) did in a Victorian 12 club comp that was wound down over 30 years ago?

No I dont. Do you think GWS give a stuff what Adelaide crows did in 97 and 98?

[Johnny Member]

No, and that exactly my point.

To 7 of the 18 clubs, what happened in a 12 club state comp would be utterly irrelevant.

Even more so due to the fact that the rules were entirely different in this old comp.


So what happened in the VFL was great, and all those involved should be proud or embarrassed whatever the case may be, but these old records have no relevance to the now. None at all.

[plugger66]

No, and that exactly my point.

To 7 of the 18 clubs, what happened in a 12 club state comp would be utterly irrelevant.

Even more so due to the fact that the rules were entirely different in this old comp.


So what happened in the VFL was great, and all those involved should be proud or embarrassed whatever the case may be, but these old records have no relevance to the now. None at all.

But you reasoning is that the crows didnt care because its VFL and im saying GWS dont care either but its AFL. We arent going to agree because the rules are different as you say but the rules regarding how you get players and other concessions alter every year. Maybe we dont count the 2 Sydney flags or the 3 Brisbane flags because in 3 years there will be no COLA. All I know is when the AFL started 12 of the 14 sides played VFL the previous year so there was bugger difference to the previous year. it was only 2 extra sides. The draft had actually started in 1981 so that wasnt a new thing.

[thejiggingsaint]

Good one SP! prepared to bet on us not winning another game this season

[Johnny Member]

So in all seriousness, for example, does anyone really take seriously or think there is any relevance to the 900 Wooden Spoons the Saints 'won' in the first years of the VFL back in 1897 or whenever it was?

What about the VFA prior to the breakaway VFL? Surely we include those records too?

And seeing as we merged with South Yarra in the VFA, don't those flags count?

Just for example.


I mean seriously, how are these sorts of records relevant when discussing modern day AFL clubs and their records?

[plugger66]

So in all seriousness, for example, does anyone really take seriously or think there is any relevance to the 900 Wooden Spoons the Saints 'won' in the first years of the VFL back in 1897 or whenever it was?

What about the VFA prior to the breakaway VFL? Surely we include those records too?

And seeing as we merged with South Yarra in the VFA, don't those flags count?

Just for example.


I mean seriously, how are these sorts of records relevant when discussing modern day AFL clubs and their records?

I didnt care about the ones we won in 1897 when it was the VFL but I still care about our one and only flag. The difference between the breakaway from the VFA is that comp still existed. When the VFL became the AFL every side that was in the VFL was also in the AFL so it isnt the same at all. 2 sides were added in 1987 but what else really changed so that the winner of 1986 GF wasnt counted. Not much I see but a name change and 2 sides.

[stevie]

Johnny, I think we all understand what you're alluding to but it's still the same sporting comp just with a different title.

The EPL used to be just be called Division One. The UCL used to be called the European Cup. The winners are all still marked down as winners irrespective of what the actual comp is called now.

[thejiggingsaint]

Wooden spoon? Schwooden spoon! If it happens, so what?! 26-27? Makes no difference. The point is that we are in year zero of the next great era for the club! This year is the first part of the rebuilding of the list, I see only a bright future through gritted teeth, yes, but bright all the same!

[Johnny Member]

No, absolute the contrare!

If it was just the same comp with a different name, I'd agree that historically records had relevance.

But it's not the same comp at all.


A state comp which had no draft and no salary cap, compared to a 5 state comp with a draft and salary cap means that clubs operate in a completely different way.

I see it almost like a T20 cricketer including his stats with his test figures!

Totally different comps and totally different operating guidelines.

Achievements in one or the other don't detract from the other, but they are separate.


Carlton have not won 16 AFL flags. They've won 1.

They won 15 VFL flags.

In my opinion, they're completely different things.


They were a club that thrived in a state system where you had a zone to build from, and could buy whatever and whomever you wanted.
Well done. Their VFL record was great.

But as an AFL club, where you draft and manage your list under a totally different system, they've been a very ordinary performer.

[Johnny Member]

Just further to that, using the EPL as an example, if they suddenly became an international comp and invited in teams from other countries and introduced a draft and a salary cap, and changed their name - then I think the records of all clubs in the old EPL would become irrelevant in discussions regarding the new comp too.