How St Kilda spiralled from a great height

[matrix]

Great
Now I'm thinking about that f****** bounce again and Lenny Hayes busting a gut for nofhing

Ffs.

[BigMart]

Geelong have older players.... The are still ok

Sydney do?

Is it perhaps the fact they have kept them... Or replaced them well?

From what I see.... Most of the AFLs best are 'older players'

Bartel 4, Goddard/Watson, Sc Thompson, Riewoldt, Harvey, Dal Santo, Mntagna, Ablett, Judd, Hodge, Swan, Mitchell. And plenty more

All 28 plus with many years more to come....

Young players give hope.... Older players deliver results

[Johnny Member]

Ok, yes. Contenders - no.

When Geelong are in the bottom 4 in the next 2 years will it be a shock?

Of course not. That's the system. If it doesn't work like that, it's failing.


If every top 6 club never bottoms out, we need a new system.

Top clubs must bottom out. It's the only way the comp can continue.


Geelong have gone from a genuine GF side to an 'also ran'. Are you outraged by that? Have they erred badly by not replacing their guns with other guns?

[BigMart]

Top clubs spend very little time at the bottom... IMO

Accepting bottoming out is an excuse to lose IMO

Culture of sustained success is what brings success... Not hoping the system of dipping into the top end of draft well will give you a shot?!

As we speak BJ is giving Ziebell a hiding!

[Johnny Member]

As I've said before, if you're trying to get into a 'bag the Saints' argument, then go for it. You might get someone to partake in it.

But this is about the concept of going from a contender to a bottom 4 side being some sort of horror concept that is an awful failure.

It's not. It's exactly what the system is designed to ensure happens.

[Johnny Member]

Top clubs spend very little time at the bottom... IMO

Accepting bottoming out is an excuse to lose IMO

Culture of sustained success is what brings success... Not hoping the system of dipping into the top end of draft well will give you a shot?!

As we speak BJ is giving Ziebell a hiding!

??

BJ is a no. 1 pick isn't he??

[BigMart]

An older #1 pick
Chapman was an older pick 31, Mitchell an older pick 36, Swan an older pick 58, Fisher 55?
High picks are nice... But didn't help Melbourne, Carlton who blatantly played for them? It's what you do after the picks as much as the picks themself

Whilst he played at StK we HAD a culture of sustained excellence and achieved high success (not ultimate) for 8 seasons

GT and Lyon drove a fearsome culture

[The Fireman]

BJ Dal & Ball are a big part of the spiral.

[Johnny Member]

Not sure what you're saying?


I'm not saying bottoming is the ideal strategy, I'm saying that the AFL implemented a system that is designed to ensure that clubs up the top fall, whilst clubs at the bottom are fed talent to ensure that they get the opportunity to climb.

It's not even up for debate - it's the AFL system! It's exactly what had been put in place.

So when it happens, why the horror? Why an article about it??

[Johnny Member]

BJ Dal & Ball are a big part of the spiral.

So hypothetically, if we still had them, roughly where would we be in the ladder right now? And where would we be in 2-3 years?

[70s sainter]

The irony is that if we win one of those GFs then we prolly still end up in same boat but none of us would really care would we?

Yeah but the only difference is flog just out of high school wanna be journalists wouldn't have the balls to write about it even though it's Exactly the same situation .

[Teflon]

Correct Johnny

Before we get over excited after a rd 1 game lets remember both Dal and Goddard are playing in sides supposedly on the climb - some have Roos top 4 chance this year with 4th oldest list. Point is as a whole they weren't looking that good with us because we had a group with holes galore in it and couldn't support them

Cats don't let good players go for no reason - Chapman will play those games this year but it's a long year and he looked slow last year....

Our decline is predictable - it's what we do from here that counts

[The Fireman]

BJ Dal & Ball are a big part of the spiral.

So hypothetically, if we still had them, roughly where would we be in the ladder right now? And where would we be in 2-3 years?

For a start we would be competitive on and off the field. Off the field with membership numbers..wins will keep that a constant besides people dropping off win they see their stars drop off.

On the field with leadership for our young up and comers. In 2 to 3 years I believe we would be better off had we retained those club champions as the good sides do.

hypothetically

[Johnny Member]

Off-field is a different debate, so I'll leave that alone on this thread.


On-field, the offset of being competitive instead of being outright s*** - is that you get Ok kids in instead of gun kids in. So as for when we could contend next is open for debate.

But in my opinion, once you're no longer a contender then it doesn't matter what you do. Every club will have it's decline and associated 'turmoil' that naturally comes with it, but as Teflon said above, it's what we do now that matters.

[The Fireman]

Off-field is a different debate, so I'll leave that alone on this thread.


On-field, the offset of being competitive instead of being outright s*** - is that you get Ok kids in instead of gun kids in. So as for when we could contend next is open for debate.

But in my opinion, once you're no longer a contender then it doesn't matter what you do. Every club will have it's decline and associated 'turmoil' that naturally comes with it, but as Teflon said above, it's what we do now that matters.

It surely does.

but I know where you are coming from. Watching Goddard star tonight was like someone jabbing me in the eye with a hot poker. Can't help but think retaining these guys could only mean a positive thing for our club.

It's what we do now ? It's what we should have done otherwise you will keep on saying the former.

[stinger]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84900

[Johnny Member]

It's what we do now ? It's what we should have done otherwise you will keep on saying the former.

Well regardless of what we should have/could have/would have done, as I said, I still think we'd no longer be a contender due to the AFL system.

And without that same system, we'd have never been a contender in the first place!


The only difference is how far you fall, and how quickly you rise. And when you do rise, ensuring that you've built a strong enough foundation to actually be a contender.

Carlton can't boast that, and it's possibly that Richmond won't be able to either. Essendon and Adelajde may be the same. North ditto and possibly many more.

So we've declined. Normal.

How well will we rebuild, and how far will we go once we've rebuilt? That's the real story here if you ask me.

[Johnny Member]

This is weird if you ask me...


"much of the answer surrounds the steady erosion of St Kilda's Grand Finalteams of 2010.

Of the team that lost the rematch, just six players have been picked for the game against Melbourne."


4 years on. 4 years! How many players would you expect to be still going 4 years on?

[magnifisaint]

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT ARTICLE?

[saintspremiers]

The irony is that if we win one of those GFs then we prolly still end up in same boat but none of us would really care would we?

correct

Wouldn't mind as much.......what we don't know is if a flag in our recent dominant era would've meant more members now and as a result a better financial standpoint.

[BigMart]

Ensure is the wrong word

DPs have never ensured anything

And team who have won premierships have stayed around the mark of a decade

The system
Designed to work that way, yes, reality, No

As I said
Hawthorn and Sydney.... Last two Premiers have added numerous players to a list and into a SC which goes to show something about equalisation..... And Geelong's reign?

What about perennial cellar dwellers??

[plugger66]

Top clubs spend very little time at the bottom... IMO

Accepting bottoming out is an excuse to lose IMO

Culture of sustained success is what brings success... Not hoping the system of dipping into the top end of draft well will give you a shot?!

As we speak BJ is giving Ziebell a hiding!

And how much time have we spent at the bottom yet? It may only be a year or two. Every club has been at the bottom bar two. So that means you think they are the only successful ones. Both those clubs had a lot oh help. One with money in the salary cap and the other with Father sons. And yep BJ maybe doing well but if he played for us we still would be struggling and with less younger players. Same with Dal.

[BigMart]

Let's put Dal 30 , Ball 29 & BJ 28
Plus McEvoy 24 arguably Gram.... But I'll leave him out...
Bring in a FRP for 2009 because we couldn't have traded for Lovett and kept Ball

No Longer, Hickey, Savage, Lee, Saad, Milera for Compo

For example?

B: Roberton - Delaney - Geary

HB: Gilbert - Fisher - Dempster

C: Dal Santo - Armitage - Newnes

HF: Montagna - Riewoldt - Ball

F: Schnieder - Stanley - Goddard

Foll: McEvoy - Jones - Steven

Int: Hayes - Wright - Curran - Billings

Emerg: Ray - Dunstan - Webster - Ross - Gwilt

Amazing how 4 players can change the complexion of a team.... Especially 4 key mids

[dragit]

Let's put Dal 30 , Ball 29 & BJ 28
Plus McEvoy 24 arguably Gram.... But I'll leave him out...
Bring in a FRP for 2009 because we couldn't have traded for Lovett and kept Ball

No Longer, Hickey, Savage, Lee, Saad, Milera for Compo

For example?

B: Roberton - Delaney - Geary

HB: Gilbert - Fisher - Dempster

C: Dal Santo - Armitage - Newnes

HF: Montagna - Riewoldt - Ball

F: Schnieder - Stanley - Goddard

Foll: McEvoy - Jones - Steven

Int: Hayes - Wright - Curran - Billings

Emerg: Ray - Dunstan - Webster - Ross - Gwilt

Amazing how 4 players can change the complexion of a team.... Especially 4 key mids

Decent side, still not in flag contention… probably only $2,000,000 over the salary cap.