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The Fireman wrote:no loyalty left..he is milking the system for all it's worth as are the players...we are the only suckers left towing the loyalty line.
In the past there was an amount of loyalty which is slowly eroding , when a player left in days gone by everyone would be up in arms...these days it's a shrug of the shoulders...again it's the supporter who has remained the only constant.plugger66 wrote:The Fireman wrote:no loyalty left..he is milking the system for all it's worth as are the players...we are the only suckers left towing the loyalty line.
As opposed to other coaches leaving. Im unsure anything has changed in the last 50 years. If anyone can post stats to prove otherwise well that would be interesting.
The Fireman wrote:In the past there was an amount of loyalty which is slowly eroding , when a player left in days gone by everyone would be up in arms...these days it's a shrug of the shoulders...again it's the supporter who has remained the only constant.plugger66 wrote:The Fireman wrote:no loyalty left..he is milking the system for all it's worth as are the players...we are the only suckers left towing the loyalty line.
As opposed to other coaches leaving. Im unsure anything has changed in the last 50 years. If anyone can post stats to prove otherwise well that would be interesting.
Harvey To Hayes wrote:If Lyon has so much integrity why did he lead our board on by continuing contract negotiations via his agent while he was off signing his own deal with Freo? That is completely unethical on so many levels, especially when he had them "accept" our extension only to baulk at signing and use the contract loophole to walk away from the year of the contract we thought he was locked in for. Only dodgy people in my experience are capable of such duplicitous conduct.
Further, if Lyon has so much integrity why did he "retire" Bakes, Mini and Eddy after that finals loss when he knew he wasn't going to be in charge the following season? The minute he committed even mentally to Freo he ethically forfeited the right to make decisions impacting not only our club but our players' lives.
s*** bloke, seemingly hellbent on getting coaching success to alleviate his complete lack of team success as a player. Hope he keeps getting close without winning one...
How many people do you know that think more players leave now?plugger66 wrote:
I reckon a few people were up in arms when BJ left. I think its funny that people think more players leave now than in the past. I think in the first drafts there were many trades. And champions have always left. Big Carl left us twice. Ian Stewart left.
The Fireman wrote:In the past there was an amount of loyalty which is slowly eroding , when a player left in days gone by everyone would be up in arms...these days it's a shrug of the shoulders...again it's the supporter who has remained the only constant.plugger66 wrote:The Fireman wrote:no loyalty left..he is milking the system for all it's worth as are the players...we are the only suckers left towing the loyalty line.
As opposed to other coaches leaving. Im unsure anything has changed in the last 50 years. If anyone can post stats to prove otherwise well that would be interesting.
satchmo wrote:Pretty sure that K is talking about his Saints contract.Spinner wrote:SainterK wrote:I don't think he wanted an extension, I think he wanted out...
You think he wanted out of Freo so they gave him a 2 year extension?
Why? He's coached the 19th most grand finals of all time, 27th most finals. Here's his performance against all the other coaches who started at the same time or after him:SainterK wrote:Give him one thing, his self belief must be enormous...
Mine would of taken a hit by now
Bluthy wrote:The question to me is whether Lyon will learn from not being able to get across the line in 4 grand finals. In grannies all teams crank up their game to play a suffocating, chase down everything maniacal style where there is no time or space. This evens up the one big advantage his well drilled team has had all year. Where they then fall behind is his players have not been encouraged (in fact discouraged) to use instinct or flair outside of his strict game plan. Players heads are too caught up in "the system" to take the game on. Grand finals are won by players lifting themselves up to another level on the biggest stage. I think Lyons ultra-tight system kills that player empowerment and creativity. Will he finally learn and let Freo players off the hook a bit this year? He seems so stubborn and driven I can't see him changing.
...plugger66 wrote:Bluthy wrote:The question to me is whether Lyon will learn from not being able to get across the line in 4 grand finals. In grannies all teams crank up their game to play a suffocating, chase down everything maniacal style where there is no time or space. This evens up the one big advantage his well drilled team has had all year. Where they then fall behind is his players have not been encouraged (in fact discouraged) to use instinct or flair outside of his strict game plan. Players heads are too caught up in "the system" to take the game on. Grand finals are won by players lifting themselves up to another level on the biggest stage. I think Lyons ultra-tight system kills that player empowerment and creativity. Will he finally learn and let Freo players off the hook a bit this year? He seems so stubborn and driven I can't see him changing.
I think that may make sense if he was being smashed in GF but 3 out of 4 of them could have been won with an extra little luck and better kicking.
spert wrote:...plugger66 wrote:Bluthy wrote:The question to me is whether Lyon will learn from not being able to get across the line in 4 grand finals. In grannies all teams crank up their game to play a suffocating, chase down everything maniacal style where there is no time or space. This evens up the one big advantage his well drilled team has had all year. Where they then fall behind is his players have not been encouraged (in fact discouraged) to use instinct or flair outside of his strict game plan. Players heads are too caught up in "the system" to take the game on. Grand finals are won by players lifting themselves up to another level on the biggest stage. I think Lyons ultra-tight system kills that player empowerment and creativity. Will he finally learn and let Freo players off the hook a bit this year? He seems so stubborn and driven I can't see him changing.
I think that may make sense if he was being smashed in GF but 3 out of 4 of them could have been won with an extra little luck and better kicking.
with a bit more imaginative and risk-taking coaching
He may yet manage to sneak one by a goal or so, but there is a real pattern now of his players not standing up under the intense pressure of the grannies including bad kicking. I don't think Lyon is very good at building up individuals belief in themselves. His rigid approach is subliminally saying to his players "Your footballing nous is not going to win us a premiership, the system will win us a premiership". What does that do to a players confidence in himself as a footballer who can make things happen? Everyone said Maxwell was a spud when he was appointed captain (and geelong still do). In that last 15 minutes of the drawn grand final he was a f****** general holding back the tide against the odds. That is Malthouses genius in his ability to help players find their best selves, respecting their individuality and nurturing it (while still balancing it with sticking to team tactics). Lyon is obsessed with micro-managing the nuts and bolts of play and his system and doesn't have the patience or vision to encourage that sort of inner player development but I think the best coaches do. It allows players to be extraordinary when the pressure is greatest. Geelong players believed themselves capable of doing something magical despite whatever stifling "system" they were up against. You make your own luck.plugger66 wrote:Not sure about that. Were the other coaches imaginative and risk taking in the GF's? Also was the side he coached favourite in any GF. maybe we were against Geelong but that would have been close. The other sides were clearly favourite. maybe they werent good enough or made errors like kicking for goal.
I just find it strange that you can get so close in 3 GF's and then people ay his type of coaching wont win GF's. Like I said i would agree if the sides were never in the game but they were.
Bluthy wrote:He may yet manage to sneak one by a goal or so, but there is a real pattern now of his players not standing up under the intense pressure of the grannies including bad kicking. I don't think Lyon is very good at building up individuals belief in themselves. His rigid approach is subliminally saying to his players "Your footballing nous is not going to win us a premiership, the system will win us a premiership". What does that do to a players confidence in himself as a footballer who can make things happen? Everyone said Maxwell was a spud when he was appointed captain (and geelong still do). In that last 15 minutes of the drawn grand final he was a f****** general holding back the tide against the odds. That is Malthouses genius in his ability to help players find their best selves, respecting their individuality and nurturing it (while still balancing it with sticking to team tactics). Lyon is obsessed with micro-managing the nuts and bolts of play and his system and doesn't have the patience or vision to encourage that sort of inner player development but I think the best coaches do. It allows players to be extraordinary when the pressure is greatest. Geelong players believed themselves capable of doing something magical despite whatever stifling "system" they were up against. You make your own luck.plugger66 wrote:Not sure about that. Were the other coaches imaginative and risk taking in the GF's? Also was the side he coached favourite in any GF. maybe we were against Geelong but that would have been close. The other sides were clearly favourite. maybe they werent good enough or made errors like kicking for goal.
I just find it strange that you can get so close in 3 GF's and then people ay his type of coaching wont win GF's. Like I said i would agree if the sides were never in the game but they were.
I don't completely agree with you, but I think that's a pretty insightful call about coaching styles. Stan Alves is an example of the motivator coach who unfortunately couldn't get it done when it counted. Not much of a tactician but he got a solid list all pushing in the right direction for about 20 games in 97.Bluthy wrote:He may yet manage to sneak one by a goal or so, but there is a real pattern now of his players not standing up under the intense pressure of the grannies including bad kicking. I don't think Lyon is very good at building up individuals belief in themselves. His rigid approach is subliminally saying to his players "Your footballing nous is not going to win us a premiership, the system will win us a premiership". What does that do to a players confidence in himself as a footballer who can make things happen? Everyone said Maxwell was a spud when he was appointed captain (and geelong still do). In that last 15 minutes of the drawn grand final he was a f****** general holding back the tide against the odds. That is Malthouses genius in his ability to help players find their best selves, respecting their individuality and nurturing it (while still balancing it with sticking to team tactics). Lyon is obsessed with micro-managing the nuts and bolts of play and his system and doesn't have the patience or vision to encourage that sort of inner player development but I think the best coaches do. It allows players to be extraordinary when the pressure is greatest. Geelong players believed themselves capable of doing something magical despite whatever stifling "system" they were up against. You make your own luck.
I know he was triple teamed and didn't have much support up forward but I felt even Riewoldt was reduced to playing a "role" under Lyon (pushing up on the wings as a link up out of defence) rather than let him dominate they way he could. When you have someone that great, let them do what they do. I thought Pavlich had the ability to tear apart that last quarter but he seemed restrained by the game plan. Lyon makes his players fit his system, instead of the system fitting the talents of the players he has.Spinner wrote:Bluthy wrote:He may yet manage to sneak one by a goal or so, but there is a real pattern now of his players not standing up under the intense pressure of the grannies including bad kicking. I don't think Lyon is very good at building up individuals belief in themselves. His rigid approach is subliminally saying to his players "Your footballing nous is not going to win us a premiership, the system will win us a premiership". What does that do to a players confidence in himself as a footballer who can make things happen? Everyone said Maxwell was a spud when he was appointed captain (and geelong still do). In that last 15 minutes of the drawn grand final he was a f****** general holding back the tide against the odds. That is Malthouses genius in his ability to help players find their best selves, respecting their individuality and nurturing it (while still balancing it with sticking to team tactics). Lyon is obsessed with micro-managing the nuts and bolts of play and his system and doesn't have the patience or vision to encourage that sort of inner player development but I think the best coaches do. It allows players to be extraordinary when the pressure is greatest. Geelong players believed themselves capable of doing something magical despite whatever stifling "system" they were up against. You make your own luck.plugger66 wrote:Not sure about that. Were the other coaches imaginative and risk taking in the GF's? Also was the side he coached favourite in any GF. maybe we were against Geelong but that would have been close. The other sides were clearly favourite. maybe they werent good enough or made errors like kicking for goal.
I just find it strange that you can get so close in 3 GF's and then people ay his type of coaching wont win GF's. Like I said i would agree if the sides were never in the game but they were.
Can you give me an example of a st Kilda player not using their football nous in a grand final?
. There is some truth in that (we were a bounce of the ball from a flag), but the danger of a complete systems approach is it becomes predictable and gets unpacked by other teams. But jeez, we were loaded up with some brilliant, creative players - why not allow them to use it? I see it as a coach is like the General who sets the structures and game style (eg Malthouse's going along the wings) at high level and then has lieutenants bedding in the details, adding in their own ideas, but always reporting back to the top. A Generals job is often to man manage those under him to bring out their best and make sure everyone stays on track for the big picture. I imagine being an assistant coach under Lyon would like being a Nazi and just "obeying orders" so you miss out on the creativity of the assistant coaches to make your team a little less predictable and multi-pronged. In retrospect St Kilda was a bit one-dimensional, without enough goal scoring options. Surprise, surprise so is Freo.bergholt wrote: I don't completely agree with you, but I think that's a pretty insightful call about coaching styles. Stan Alves is an example of the motivator coach who unfortunately couldn't get it done when it counted. Not much of a tactician but he got a solid list all pushing in the right direction for about 20 games in 97.
I wonder if it depends how much you've got in terms of resources? Malthouse can afford to be a pure mentor and motivator to his players because he's got a whole bunch of others around him doing skills coaching and tactical drills - and for that matter recruiting the right players in the first place. On the other hand, if you can't afford to do everything then betting on "system" is probably not a bad idea, helps you make up for variable quality players, worse skills, more rudimentary tactics.
I think he was very imaginative in the 2nd half of GF1 in 2010, so much so that he nearly won a game we should never have got close in…plugger66 wrote:spert wrote:...plugger66 wrote:
I think that may make sense if he was being smashed in GF but 3 out of 4 of them could have been won with an extra little luck and better kicking.
with a bit more imaginative and risk-taking coaching
Not sure about that. Were the other coaches imaginative and risk taking in the GF's? Also was the side he coached favourite in any GF. maybe we were against Geelong but that would have been close. The other sides were clearly favourite. maybe they werent good enough or made errors like kicking for goal.
I just find it strange that you can get so close in 3 GF's and then people ay his type of coaching wont win GF's. Like I said i would agree if the sides were never in the game but they were.
) yet not enough time to move a non saints thread on the main page into the general sport area