Best taggers in the AFL

[footynut]

According to the Age, Jones is the 17th Best Tagger in the league. How then can he demand a regular game! We need players that can run both ways. You need to be able to blanket your opponent while being dangerous. Jones has positives such as his strong work ethic, atttact on the footy and ability to stick to game plans. Despite this giving him a game is taking away opportunities from younger players such as Newnes, Curren, Geary, Webster and Wright who could play a similar role. Even players such as Ray, Dempster and Gilbert could be more effective.

[Cairnsman]

I'm critical and confused by Champion Data especially some journalists interpretation of the Champion data.

After reading that article I'm not sure you can be negative of CJ on the tagger argument alone. I actually thought CJ was given license last year to take the game on and it certainly looked like he tried to dispose of the pill more by foot and his kicking even appeared to be better at times.

That article just supports the argument that Champion Data needs to overhaul it's system and get with the modern game, point in case the premiers didn't even register a tagger-stat by CD's measure.

[Jacks Back]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

From Wikipedia - "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

[Con Gorozidis]

People kept saying CJ had a great year.
He was top 10 b & f but reality is we finished 3rd bottom.
If he was top 10 b & f - its not because he had a great year - its because we were very very ordinary for 90% of the year.

The fact is to be play finals you need 4 elite players under the cd system to make a gf you need 5 - melbourne have nil.

we have 2 but both are over 30.

this means we need to find 5 elite players in the next 4 - 5 years. No easy feat ( i think with jack we already have 1 in the making) - so we need another 4.

CJ is an ordinary player - he had some good quarters and some shockers.

I still like the idea of Geary becoming our future tagger.

[gringo]

CJ didn't do a lot of tagging last season might help explain it. He had a good year and deserved his spot. Tagging seems less fashionable right now. Champion data is an okay guide but is far from fool proof. The contested stats alone are misleading where a player only has to be near you to register as contested and fails to differentiate true stats in a lot of other areas.

[The Redeemer]

CJ didn't do a lot of tagging last season might help explain it. He had a good year and deserved his spot. Tagging seems less fashionable right now. Champion data is an okay guide but is far from fool proof. The contested stats alone are misleading where a player only has to be near you to register as contested and fails to differentiate true stats in a lot of other areas.

So if Jones was not tagging, what was he actually doing?

[footynut]

I'm critical and confused by Champion Data especially some journalists interpretation of the Champion data.

After reading that article I'm not sure you can be negative of CJ on the tagger argument alone. I actually thought CJ was given license last year to take the game on and it certainly looked like he tried to dispose of the pill more by foot and his kicking even appeared to be better at times.

That article just supports the argument that Champion Data needs to overhaul it's system and get with the modern game, point in case the premiers didn't even register a tagger-stat by CD's measure.

He may have tried to dispose of it a bit more by foot but is that really a good thing?
When he has the footy I find myself cheering when he hits a target and doesn't handball to someone under pressure!

[Con Gorozidis]

I think a reality check is in order.

We finished 3rd bottom.
Only ahead of gws and Melbourne .

Our top 3 were awesome.

But after that there wasn't much and a big gap.

CJ is not all that.

[White Winmar]

I think a reality check is in order.

We finished 3rd bottom.
Only ahead of gws and Melbourne .

Our top 3 were awesome.

But after that there wasn't much and a big gap.

CJ is not all that.

CJ is far from awesome. If he's in our best few, then we are in trouble.

[skeptic]

CJ has been an average player for a long time now. Since about mid 2010 when the opposition started paying him more respect. The obvious strategy used to combat him was to peel off him when the Saints had the ball and hope we passed it to him.

Because of his general standoutedness, his extremely high work rate sees him usually do 3-4 really good 1%s or things that really made him stand out, and made supporters (and coaches too) think he played better then he did.

I think in general, his all round good clubmanship, near elite level preparation and positive attitude has resulted in coaches, players and supporters really respecting and believing in him to the point where his presence is believed to add a substantial intrinsic benefit.

I like the guy but he has been an absolute liability on the field for sometime and we have gained nothing by persevering with him for as long as we have.
How some ppl can argue he was a better pick then Tom Ledger this season to me is still the most bizarre and irrational line of thinking the club has demonstrated

[Con Gorozidis]

I think a reality check is in order.

We finished 3rd bottom.
Only ahead of gws and Melbourne .

Our top 3 were awesome.

But after that there wasn't much and a big gap.

CJ is not all that.

CJ is far from awesome. If he's in our best few, then we are in trouble.

our top 3 were Roo, Joey, Jack...

then daylight

CJ is a long way from those 3 - and I agree - if he was in our top 3 - we should be playing VFL - not AFL.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

absolute liability on the field????? .... three times he was picked to play in the biggest game of all ... all three times it was not a lineball decision he was a lock to play ... played pretty influencial roles in all of them and imo would hold his head high over his return in two of the three (worth noting imo only BJ deserves to take something away from the third game)...
yeah i know its not 2009 or 2010 but lets show the guy just a tad respect ... he is coming towards the end of his career no shame in slowing down at the end most players do but to me CJ is still one of the most reliable players we got in the team .. he aint flashy he aint gunna get brownlow votes or rack up huge numbers but he will run hard from start to finish he will put his body on the line he will try to play within his limits and above all will push himself to give everything he has on field ... you wanna know what he brings to the team he sets the example of how to make the most out of what you got .. CJ has massive flaws in his game yet he shows that by working your arse off you can still make a good show of it , to me thats exactly what you need the young fellas seeing week in week out not many are going to be blessed with the skills of a Dal Santo or the tank of Roo or the outright courage of a Hayes and while learning off these champs is going to be great its also worth looking at how the less skilled players managed to push themselves to their best

[st_Trav_ofWA]

btw i do realise Dal Santo isno longer here but was making referance to the learnings from last season

[stevie]

CJ didn't do a lot of tagging last season might help explain it. He had a good year and deserved his spot. Tagging seems less fashionable right now. Champion data is an okay guide but is far from fool proof. The contested stats alone are misleading where a player only has to be near you to register as contested and fails to differentiate true stats in a lot of other areas.

So if Jones was not tagging, what was he actually doing?

Helicopters, hand balling and igniting dwarves.

Busy lad

[Stian]

absolute liability on the field????? .... three times he was picked to play in the biggest game of all ... all three times it was not a lineball decision he was a lock to play ... played pretty influencial roles in all of them and imo would hold his head high over his return in two of the three (worth noting imo only BJ deserves to take something away from the third game)...
yeah i know its not 2009 or 2010 but lets show the guy just a tad respect ... he is coming towards the end of his career no shame in slowing down at the end most players do but to me CJ is still one of the most reliable players we got in the team .. he aint flashy he aint gunna get brownlow votes or rack up huge numbers but he will run hard from start to finish he will put his body on the line he will try to play within his limits and above all will push himself to give everything he has on field ... you wanna know what he brings to the team he sets the example of how to make the most out of what you got .. CJ has massive flaws in his game yet he shows that by working your arse off you can still make a good show of it , to me thats exactly what you need the young fellas seeing week in week out not many are going to be blessed with the skills of a Dal Santo or the tank of Roo or the outright courage of a Hayes and while learning off these champs is going to be great its also worth looking at how the less skilled players managed to push themselves to their best

VERY, VERY, VERY well said. You have to love the derision of the armchair critics on here who couldn't even get a helicopter kick in CJ's place.

[plugger66]

absolute liability on the field????? .... three times he was picked to play in the biggest game of all ... all three times it was not a lineball decision he was a lock to play ... played pretty influencial roles in all of them and imo would hold his head high over his return in two of the three (worth noting imo only BJ deserves to take something away from the third game)...
yeah i know its not 2009 or 2010 but lets show the guy just a tad respect ... he is coming towards the end of his career no shame in slowing down at the end most players do but to me CJ is still one of the most reliable players we got in the team .. he aint flashy he aint gunna get brownlow votes or rack up huge numbers but he will run hard from start to finish he will put his body on the line he will try to play within his limits and above all will push himself to give everything he has on field ... you wanna know what he brings to the team he sets the example of how to make the most out of what you got .. CJ has massive flaws in his game yet he shows that by working your arse off you can still make a good show of it , to me thats exactly what you need the young fellas seeing week in week out not many are going to be blessed with the skills of a Dal Santo or the tank of Roo or the outright courage of a Hayes and while learning off these champs is going to be great its also worth looking at how the less skilled players managed to push themselves to their best

VERY, VERY, VERY well said. You have to love the derision of the armchair critics on here who couldn't even get a helicopter kick in CJ's place.

Well thats obviously true but I dont think that means we cant comment. The worst player the saints have ever had play for them is probably better than 99.9% of people who comment on here.

[bergholt]

CJ is an ordinary player - he had some good quarters and some shockers.

I reckon he's about as good as Andrew Thompson was. Both solid, professional players who are a bit limited and never going to win a Brownlow, but you could do worse as your fifth or sixth midfielder.

[Stian]

absolute liability on the field????? .... three times he was picked to play in the biggest game of all ... all three times it was not a lineball decision he was a lock to play ... played pretty influencial roles in all of them and imo would hold his head high over his return in two of the three (worth noting imo only BJ deserves to take something away from the third game)...
yeah i know its not 2009 or 2010 but lets show the guy just a tad respect ... he is coming towards the end of his career no shame in slowing down at the end most players do but to me CJ is still one of the most reliable players we got in the team .. he aint flashy he aint gunna get brownlow votes or rack up huge numbers but he will run hard from start to finish he will put his body on the line he will try to play within his limits and above all will push himself to give everything he has on field ... you wanna know what he brings to the team he sets the example of how to make the most out of what you got .. CJ has massive flaws in his game yet he shows that by working your arse off you can still make a good show of it , to me thats exactly what you need the young fellas seeing week in week out not many are going to be blessed with the skills of a Dal Santo or the tank of Roo or the outright courage of a Hayes and while learning off these champs is going to be great its also worth looking at how the less skilled players managed to push themselves to their best

VERY, VERY, VERY well said. You have to love the derision of the armchair critics on here who couldn't even get a helicopter kick in CJ's place.

Well thats obviously true but I dont think that means we cant comment. The worst player the saints have ever had play for them is probably better than 99.9% of people who comment on here.

No, I'm not bothered by the fact that people comment - after all, that's what this forum is for. What I find offensive is the "smugness" in the comments (sorry, I can't think of a better word) or lack of respect for the efforts made by a player wearing OUR jumper.

[plugger66]

VERY, VERY, VERY well said. You have to love the derision of the armchair critics on here who couldn't even get a helicopter kick in CJ's place.

Well thats obviously true but I dont think that means we cant comment. The worst player the saints have ever had play for them is probably better than 99.9% of people who comment on here.

No, I'm not bothered by the fact that people comment - after all, that's what this forum is for. What I find offensive is the "smugness" in the comments (sorry, I can't think of a better word) or lack of respect for the efforts made by a player wearing OUR jumper.

Yep fair enough. i agree about that.

[dragit]

I am a pretty harsh critic of Jones, he had a reasonable 2013… but was still chopped up by his opponent plenty of times.

I thought he was done, particularly after the dwarf incident… which would be hard to understand from an 18 year old, let alone a 30 year old man.

I hope he doesn't hold any young players back this year… Clarke & Peake would probably still be in our "best 22" if they were on the list, but I don't think we are missing them and I don't think we'll miss CJ.

[Con Gorozidis]

If he is our 5th/6th mid then we are bottom 3.

I think Andrew Thompson was much better.

He was our 2nd 3rd or 4th best mid when we were runner up in 1997.

[dragit]

If he is our 5th/6th mid then we are bottom 3.

I think Andrew Thompson was much better.

He was our 2nd 3rd or 4th best mid when we were runner up in 1997.

We are bottom 3 Con, didn't you get the memo?

I'd take Thomo over CJ, Thomo was a little slow but had reasonable skills and footy smarts, I don't really enjoy CJ's headless chook antics and he is comfortably the worst kick in the league.

[bergholt]

I think Andrew Thompson was much better.

He was our 2nd 3rd or 4th best mid when we were runner up in 1997.

97? Nah, I don't think you're remembering right. He was pretty good for a first year player straight from the ammos but didn't have many standout games. A glance at the stats shows he averaged less than 15 touches. Plenty better than him: Harvey, Burke, Jones, Brown. Joel Smith and Winmar were pretty solid as well until injury and tragedy struck respectively. Thommo was in a group in the middle along with Lappin, Cripps, Sziller, Matty Young, Jack Daniels.

He was pretty good in 98 but his best years were when we were s***, 1999 to 2002. Not much competition then so he started in the midfield the whole time. By the time we got good again he was too old.

I remember him a bit like Joffa Cunningham. OK player in a horrible team, but wouldn't have got a game for the good teams of the time.

[plugger66]

I think Andrew Thompson was much better.

He was our 2nd 3rd or 4th best mid when we were runner up in 1997.

97? Nah, I don't think you're remembering right. He was pretty good for a first year player straight from the ammos but didn't have many standout games. A glance at the stats shows he averaged less than 15 touches. Plenty better than him: Harvey, Burke, Jones, Brown. Joel Smith and Winmar were pretty solid as well until injury and tragedy struck respectively. Thommo was in a group in the middle along with Lappin, Cripps, Sziller, Matty Young, Jack Daniels.

He was pretty good in 98 but his best years were when we were s***, 1999 to 2002. Not much competition then so he started in the midfield the whole time. By the time we got good again he was too old.

I remember him a bit like Joffa Cunningham. OK player in a horrible team, but wouldn't have got a game for the good teams of the time.

Harsh on Joffa. may not have been the best kick but was great mark and very fast and was always one of the better players in the interstate games he played. Reckon he was much better player than AT and certainly CJ. though both were very good honest players.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

I am a pretty harsh critic of Jones, he had a reasonable 2013… but was still chopped up by his opponent plenty of times.

I thought he was done, particularly after the dwarf incident… which would be hard to understand from an 18 year old, let alone a 30 year old man.

I hope he doesn't hold any young players back this year… Clarke & Peake would probably still be in our "best 22" if they were on the list, but I don't think we are missing them and I don't think we'll miss CJ.

Jones is an older player now so yeah he would get chopped up from time to time especially when you take on guys like Swan & Ablett ... its all part of footy Roo will prob go down as one of our greatest player ever yet on pleanty of occasions in his career he has been chopped up by his opponent

the dwarf saga i think get pushed onto CJ more than it really needs to be.. there are many layers on that scandal that are disapointing firstly and most importantly the actual hiring of a dwarf performer ... it seems the maturity of most of the guys on that night was below acceptable levels as word is it was an ongoing prank by the boys to set eachother on fire CJ just made the bigger error of doing it to someone outside of the participating group .. to me the blame for that is on the leaders of the group for hiring the dwarf in the first place then the entire group who participated in the idiotic game of lighting eachother on fire ... Cj is just the dumb one who pushed it over the edge..

as for Raph and Peake they prob would be in the best 22 but they were moved on early .. CJ obviously has shown he had a little more to offer .. to my previous post about CJ being an example of making the most of what you have i dont think Raph of Peake were in that catagory both never really hit their true potential (well Peake sorta did in 2010) .. i kinda put them in the "if only" type of players