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st_Trav_ofWA wrote:my take on it .... footy clubs are a lot like some offices they work in a area of comfort and routine once that changes then there is a settling in period .. some take to the change easily, some fight the change (and usually get moved on), others go with the change but resent the fact the change is happening and be against it until they get used to it ... we have seen this over and over again.... in our most recent history GT is loved by all the players (except Milne), GT gets the arse and we have a fall out (to the point Roo is quoted as looking at options away from st kilda), in comes Lyon word trickles out the players hate him his game plan makes no sence he shuns some guys from the team (Leigh Fisher Goose) eventually Lyon gets buy in we win games the players learn to love him , he walks ... in comes Scotty ...
Chris Pelchen has said when he got to St Kilda his first task was to sort out the SC mess , he mentions that the way the pay scale was set out at St Kilda we had 6 blokes who consumed over 40% of the cap yeah we kept players but we were over paying them to keep them ... his job was then to bring that down , that in its self would make for grumpy players - we also have the issue of rebuilding the list so in the tune guys who under the Ross Lyon rule were "safe" guys who were pretty much walk up starts are suddenly finding themselves playing more VFL finding their names pushed around at trade time and find their roles changing - again makes for grumpy players
in the end Scott was employed to do a job and that was to build the next st kilda premiership team , the club have a long term veiw to this they dont expect a quick climb they know that he and pelch are tasked with replacing once in a generation players- no easy task - to me everyone needs to lower the expectation and just give it time ....
do i think Scotty will coach us to a flag ? prob not history will say he is more likely to be the stepping stone to build the team that someone will take the next step with , but i dont think sacking him will do anything but distable the club and make us look like a joke of a club
Very wise but you could also have said that guys like Siposs and Ledger who are not given game time could be pissed off. Seniors used to winning could need to blame someone. In short losing clubs are not nice environments. Destabilised ones are worse though that's why the lions have about 5 players who were high picks all wanting out.
Con Gorozidis wrote:Well said st trav
I think the issue is people have unrealistic expectations based on a very simplistic view of footy .
they see some familiar names that they got used to seeing up the top and wonder why with these same names we arent still at the top.
The next point of logic is 'it must be the coach' . Its quite child like.
If there is any criticism for Scott from me is he should have communicated very clearly and so it was easy to understand from day 1 that we were rebuilding and that it will take 3-4 years. He has over-estimated the fans and players ability to work it out for themselves. In reality he should have treated them like babies and gently but clearly lowered their expectations.
that said scotty did need some buy in from the older blokes early on as well as the members so i can forgive him for pulling a furthy with his one last crack talk ....
fact is early in seasons our club have to rely on hope to get the members on board especially this year when our draft picks were not really early picks and we used them on "mature" players ... next year we get a genuine early pick that brings excitement ...
we all know we are prob going to be the same if not worse next year but the eyes are now looking beyond
"The team that wins in the most positions and makes the least amount of mistakes, usually wins the game." -- Allan Jeans
gringo wrote:
Very wise but you could also have said that guys like Siposs and Ledger who are not given game time could be pissed off. Seniors used to winning could need to blame someone. In short losing clubs are not nice environments. Destabilised ones are worse though that's why the lions have about 5 players who were high picks all wanting out.
Sipposs did not deserve games this year. Had a very poor year. Ledger showed enough in the final two games to make me believe he may have a got a few more.
Yes but the older guys like Roo, Joey and in the latter part of the season, Dal Santo had pretty good years. Lenny signs for another year.
Who has put their hands up to be out of the Saints so far? Not saying it wont happen but nothing like the Lions.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
gringo wrote:
Very wise but you could also have said that guys like Siposs and Ledger who are not given game time could be pissed off. Seniors used to winning could need to blame someone. In short losing clubs are not nice environments. Destabilised ones are worse though that's why the lions have about 5 players who were high picks all wanting out.
Yep. Egos are the player here. Losing sides are unhappy and players dont want to ever admit 'we are no good anymore' so its much easier on the ego to blame the coach.
My approach is the players don't need to feel bad about themselves and the coach shouldn't be blamed either - lets point the blame at where it really belongs -------> 2004-2010 recruitment and development.
Cairnsman wrote:Garry Ayres is your perfect example of what Ross Lyon could become. Ross Lyon is lauded as the super coach but there are 5 coaches that are in the current system that are better than him based on the fact that they have won a flag since he become a senior AFL coach.
So to answer the earlier question by SainterK, "is anyone convinced either way on SW"? is exactly the same question that should be asked of RL if we are going to boil the debate down to that simplicity. (not having a crack SainterK)...just making a point.
P66 says a similar thing in a different way when he says I will wait until until next year to make a judgement...well DERRRRR!...(now I'm having a crack but only at P66).
Come on Cairns Man. Ross is a way better coach than Conan. Bees d!ck from two flags and now another prelim and most likely another tilt.
Love him. Hate him. He's a very very good coach.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
for what it's worth Ox on SEN just said that he knows that the young players are very happy with SW. Older players not so much as they are being moved out to make room....or words to that effect.
One thing I dont understand about this "losing sides are unhappy" meme is the way we ended the season.
After we got thumped by Geelong it looked as though we were going to get 100 point whackings from then on.
In the last four game we managed to finish the season off OK, a good win against GC and then a gift win, but a great day at the football for two wins at the end of the season.
If the team was so unhappy, the Finey prediction of us completely falling away after Geelong, would have come true. But that was not the case, and the feeling towards Kosi, Milney, and Blakey by the players seemed to be one of real comradeship.
Just feel that things dont seem to be stacking up re all this unhappiness.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
fingers wrote:for what it's worth Ox on SEN just said that he knows that the young players are very happy with SW. Older players not so much as they are being moved out to make room....or words to that effect.
A guy rang and said he's a family friend of Jack Steven and Watters spent more time in the first three weeks with him than the whole time Ross was there. I think there is a culture shift away from the guys who Ox said were paid 40% of our salary cap and we needed to off load someone to pay out our cap commitments.
Watters has an inglorious job and no one is going to massage our list in to anything like Port adelaide because we haven't got the cattle. We have 10 players that played in the GF in 2010 that won't be there after this year and Lenny, schniedes and Sam Fisher, Sam Gilbert all missed games. If we lose Dal and Fisher we will only have about 7 or 8 from that still listed left alone playing.
We are in a different world people it's not 2010 anymore.
Well Derrr what ever that means why are you then telling us how good SW is now if its obvious we need to wait until next year. You are the one though who did say Rooy and BJ were cancers of the club.
hehe!...what a cracker...I always know you've got a weak argument when you pull out that hoary old chestnut.
As opposed to say its obvious we need to wait until next year but then in the same breath tell us how good SW is going.
You do realise that it is plainly obvious to most that you verbalise a poster when you are finding the debate a little tricky. If you are referring to any comments in this thread then can you please outline where I said "in the same breath how good SW is going". Yes I have posted positive comments regarding SW throughout this season but I can't find where I said anything of that nature in this thread so you are clearly making things up to distract us away from the funny story that is the irrelevant thing your third cousin said to your Dads neighbour. Can you walk down to the back fence and pass on my best regards to your third cousin.
savatage wrote:What is his incoherently rambling about now???
Just said a whole bunch of nothing. Ranting and raving and only mentioned the sacking of Greg Hutchison.
Thanks for the negative publicity two days in a row.
retro is cool these days and we are kicking it old school. A toxic high profile warlord trying to bully the under siege coach who fails to over come all the obstacles put in front of them. Wants his mates put in. We should stop paying the players now.
joffaboy wrote:One thing I dont understand about this "losing sides are unhappy" meme is the way we ended the season.
After we got thumped by Geelong it looked as though we were going to get 100 point whackings from then on.
In the last four game we managed to finish the season off OK, a good win against GC and then a gift win, but a great day at the football for two wins at the end of the season.
If the team was so unhappy, the Finey prediction of us completely falling away after Geelong, would have come true. But that was not the case, and the feeling towards Kosi, Milney, and Blakey by the players seemed to be one of real comradeship.
Just feel that things dont seem to be stacking up re all this unhappiness.
You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to look beyond the BS and hidden agendas. Clearly you don't understand how things work JB. Get a grip and rip into the coach with half irrelevant truths.
joffaboy wrote:One thing I dont understand about this "losing sides are unhappy" meme is the way we ended the season.
After we got thumped by Geelong it looked as though we were going to get 100 point whackings from then on.
In the last four game we managed to finish the season off OK, a good win against GC and then a gift win, but a great day at the football for two wins at the end of the season.
If the team was so unhappy, the Finey prediction of us completely falling away after Geelong, would have come true. But that was not the case, and the feeling towards Kosi, Milney, and Blakey by the players seemed to be one of real comradeship.
Just feel that things dont seem to be stacking up re all this unhappiness.
How did the last game show that we were disrespecting the stars? Kosi did not deserve to get a game but he got to his 200th after he was promised by the coach he would be given every opportunity if he prepared properly. I thought that was really good.
Then he criticises Watters for not wanting Martin at the Saints. He went off five years ago when we backed off Cousins.
The guy has the same MO over and over again.
The comment by Fine to sack the coach was a look at me comment and was way over the top.
He's boring and very predictable.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
joffaboy wrote:One thing I dont understand about this "losing sides are unhappy" meme is the way we ended the season.
After we got thumped by Geelong it looked as though we were going to get 100 point whackings from then on.
In the last four game we managed to finish the season off OK, a good win against GC and then a gift win, but a great day at the football for two wins at the end of the season.
If the team was so unhappy, the Finey prediction of us completely falling away after Geelong, would have come true. But that was not the case, and the feeling towards Kosi, Milney, and Blakey by the players seemed to be one of real comradeship.
Just feel that things dont seem to be stacking up re all this unhappiness.
How did the last game show that we were disrespecting the stars? Kosi did not deserve to get a game but he got to his 200th after he was promised by the coach he would be given every opportunity if he prepared properly. I thought that was really good.
Then he criticises Watters for not wanting Martin at the Saints. He went off five years ago when we backed off Cousins.
The guy has the same MO over and over again.
The comment by Fine to sack the coach was a look at me comment and was way over the top.
He's boring and very predictable.
BTW Finey. Beva says hi.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
Cairnsman wrote:Garry Ayres is your perfect example of what Ross Lyon could become. Ross Lyon is lauded as the super coach but there are 5 coaches that are in the current system that are better than him based on the fact that they have won a flag since he become a senior AFL coach.
So to answer the earlier question by SainterK, "is anyone convinced either way on SW"? is exactly the same question that should be asked of RL if we are going to boil the debate down to that simplicity. (not having a crack SainterK)...just making a point.
P66 says a similar thing in a different way when he says I will wait until until next year to make a judgement...well DERRRRR!...(now I'm having a crack but only at P66).
Come on Cairns Man. Ross is a way better coach than Conan. Bees d!ck from two flags and now another prelim and most likely another tilt.
Love him. Hate him. He's a very very good coach.
Yes he is I suppose but my point is that unless he wins a flag then he will arguably only be remembered in a similar way to Garry Ayres as an AFL coach after his career end...which is hardly at all. And just like Ross Lyon, Garry Ayres was the beneficiary of a half decent list. He then skipped over to Adelaide and failed again with regards to not securing a flag. It just doesn't make sense to compare RL and SW. Not yet anyway IMO.
It really just sounded like he had his panties in a bunch over the - "too long have they accepted mediocrity" line...
I get that it isn't particularly tactful, but i get what SW means... he is just implying that as a club we should only be thinking about success... in whatever form it takes...
however, I am not sold on SW, i guess i have been giving him some time to adjust and demonstrate his worth, and I have been hoping that his development work makes up for his miserable strategic and game day coaching...
but if he cant develop, and we all know the other side of his game isn't strong, then i say kick him to the curb...
If there is a better development coach out there i.e. Alan Richardson, then get him on board....
Finey puts it well... Footy is a brutal business, and we should be brutal with our coaching appointment.... go get the best saints... dont accept a mediocre coach
SaintPav wrote:Was anyone sold on Ross Lyon at the end of 2008?
Anyone?
I was sold on him when he dropped Dal and Milne in 2007. Expanding on a very good post from StTrav above regarding the comparisons to change in an office/business, at some point the new boss may have to show he means business by sacking/retrenching a person as a strategic move to get the attention of the whole workforce and refocussing them to his ways.
I think RL arrived when he dropped two of the biggest names at our club and made a statement and I've wondered when SWs statement/stand will come. You have to pick your moment and make sure you don't overdo the strong stuff too early ala Mark Neeld style. I've got a feeling we might see more assertiveness come from SW in 2014.
SaintPav wrote:Was anyone sold on Ross Lyon at the end of 2008?
Anyone?
I was sold on him when he dropped Dal and Milne in 2007. Expanding on a very good post from StTrav above regarding the comparisons to change in an office/business, at some point the new boss may have to show he means business by sacking/retrenching a person as a strategic move to get the attention of the whole workforce and refocussing them to his ways.
I think RL arrived when he dropped two of the biggest names at our club and made a statement and I've wondered when SWs statement/stand will come. You have to pick your moment and make sure you don't overdo the strong stuff too early ala Mark Neeld style. I've got a feeling we might see more assertiveness come from SW in 2014.
that was in 2008 and ironically was for a game against Freo.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
For me , the biggest point was....
St.kilda is in disarray ,with the lines of communications between coach -parts of the footy dept--and the board.
Beyond repair.
The point being is he getting the info from a well sourced insider or a personal take.?
I figure he has info but won't divulge the source.
Or is this the next breaking story coming our way in the off season.
You live and die by he sword,so hes put a fair bit on the line if its all bulls*** IMO .
On Martin , I'd like him at he club as I feel he's got talent,22 and a long term project.
Give confidence for other talented recruits to come to our club.
The sack will await a bad boy attitude.
Seems alot of people don't want SW sacked,but don't want his contract extended either.
Do you bite the bullit now or has the board dug itself a bigger hole .
I'm not fussed either way, we will always get another coach, just don't want to spiral the club down further with the wrong coach ....watch this space .....
