what to make of the intangibles?
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2011 8:33pm
- Location: not victoria
- Has thanked: 12 times
- Been thanked: 76 times
what to make of the intangibles?
Great teams have great players - Geelong recently. Great players sometimes make almost great teams -Geelong of the 90's, the wonderful StKilda sides of the recent past. What is the difference? OK maybe for us not enough great players.
There is a real but hard to define difference between a great team and a team of great players. The so called intangibles that players describe as wanting to play for each other, wanting group success over individual success etc.
How is this shift in thinking and acting created? Moving a professional athlete from the focus on self, to the focus on team? The coach must have some part, but the players must also sign up. There must be a corp of leaders within the group so influential that the non negotiables are agreed and complied with. And leaders who pass on the task to an equally influential younger generation.
Many here have commented that we have yet to become a great club despite the undeniable list of great players we have had. Some of the best ever. Some of these we have seen head to other clubs. Plugger, Hall, Stewart ...even BJ.
Great players but not great leaders.
We must not loose our leaders or we will never make the grade. And we need a core of respected senior players who help the youngsters understand what is expected.
Thats why Dal should stay.
There is a real but hard to define difference between a great team and a team of great players. The so called intangibles that players describe as wanting to play for each other, wanting group success over individual success etc.
How is this shift in thinking and acting created? Moving a professional athlete from the focus on self, to the focus on team? The coach must have some part, but the players must also sign up. There must be a corp of leaders within the group so influential that the non negotiables are agreed and complied with. And leaders who pass on the task to an equally influential younger generation.
Many here have commented that we have yet to become a great club despite the undeniable list of great players we have had. Some of the best ever. Some of these we have seen head to other clubs. Plugger, Hall, Stewart ...even BJ.
Great players but not great leaders.
We must not loose our leaders or we will never make the grade. And we need a core of respected senior players who help the youngsters understand what is expected.
Thats why Dal should stay.
the invisible and the non existent look very much alike
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: what to make of the intangibles?
Listening to Travis Boak interview last week - player buy-in and doing selfless acts like you see the Swans and Hawks do is born of a belief that the team is a chance for success. This develops gradually and players make assessments based on how they rate their list relative to other sides.
If a critical mass of individual players starts believing the team has what it takes to have success they buy-in and you get the selfless acts and the 'team spirit' but players dont buy-in to team success until they believe they are a real shot- and that is based on their own assessment of where the team is at .
If keeping the status quo due to core leaders with non-negotiables was the key - why are we 3rd last? You cant argue for the status quo when we just finished 3rd last and our 'leaders' are getting worse not better.
The reality is - selfless acts grow when players are prepared to trade off personl success for team success and they will only do that when they really believe team success is on the cards. And they do that when they realise they have a lot of good players.
In 09 we had 10-12 very good players aged 25-28. So of course we had belief we could beat most sides.
In 2013 - we had Nil.
You cant manufacture team spirit - players arent that stupid.
I'm not saying trade Dal - but keeping him or not keeping is irrelevant to our future success. He wont be there next time we make finals that is for certain. But if we get a good offer the new person may be able to help us make finals and may even be a future leader.
This is why I am open-minded about Dal.
Players arent babies waiting to be lead. I want to see 22 players on the field who make the right decisions on their own. I want to build a real team. Not focus on some mystical qualities of a few 'leaders'. You contradict yourself and you also cant explain why we are third last.
If a critical mass of individual players starts believing the team has what it takes to have success they buy-in and you get the selfless acts and the 'team spirit' but players dont buy-in to team success until they believe they are a real shot- and that is based on their own assessment of where the team is at .
If keeping the status quo due to core leaders with non-negotiables was the key - why are we 3rd last? You cant argue for the status quo when we just finished 3rd last and our 'leaders' are getting worse not better.
The reality is - selfless acts grow when players are prepared to trade off personl success for team success and they will only do that when they really believe team success is on the cards. And they do that when they realise they have a lot of good players.
In 09 we had 10-12 very good players aged 25-28. So of course we had belief we could beat most sides.
In 2013 - we had Nil.
You cant manufacture team spirit - players arent that stupid.
I'm not saying trade Dal - but keeping him or not keeping is irrelevant to our future success. He wont be there next time we make finals that is for certain. But if we get a good offer the new person may be able to help us make finals and may even be a future leader.
This is why I am open-minded about Dal.
Players arent babies waiting to be lead. I want to see 22 players on the field who make the right decisions on their own. I want to build a real team. Not focus on some mystical qualities of a few 'leaders'. You contradict yourself and you also cant explain why we are third last.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5016
- Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:42am
- Location: Bayside
- Has thanked: 9 times
- Been thanked: 91 times
Re: what to make of the intangibles?
See I am not so sure about that.
Using Shane Crawford as an example.
He was 30 odd when Buddy, Roughy, Lewis & Ellis were recruited in 2004/2005.
By 2007 they were playing finals and had won a premiership, with him as a key player when he was 34.
I think Dal could still be part of things myself, especially as he could play off the HBF.
Using Shane Crawford as an example.
He was 30 odd when Buddy, Roughy, Lewis & Ellis were recruited in 2004/2005.
By 2007 they were playing finals and had won a premiership, with him as a key player when he was 34.
I think Dal could still be part of things myself, especially as he could play off the HBF.
- bobmurray
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7781
- Joined: Mon 03 Oct 2005 11:08pm
- Location: In the stand at RSEA Park.
- Has thanked: 497 times
- Been thanked: 226 times
Re: what to make of the intangibles?
Now they we are in a rebuild i'd like to see the team keep evolving.
Thanks Dal, being a 2 club player is not that bad, Allan Davis ended up playing for 4 clubs, now that is bad or desperate.
Thanks Dal, being a 2 club player is not that bad, Allan Davis ended up playing for 4 clubs, now that is bad or desperate.
Six debutants for the Saints so far in Season 2024. ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: what to make of the intangibles?
this year we hadmaverick wrote:See I am not so sure about that.
Using Shane Crawford as an example.
He was 30 odd when Buddy, Roughy, Lewis & Ellis were recruited in 2004/2005.
By 2007 they were playing finals and had won a premiership, with him as a key player when he was 34.
I think Dal could still be part of things myself, especially as he could play off the HBF.
hayes, milne, kosi, riewoldt, dal, fisher, montagna, blake, dempster, schneider - all senior 'leaders' , 'mentors' and 'helpers' and we finished 3rd bottom.
How many mentor/leaders do we need and do people think they really help as much as we like to imagine?
Maybe Joey will be a key player at 34?
What if it comes down to keeping Joey or Dal?
Maybe Joey can be our 'Shane Crawford' in your example? Maybe Roo will be our 'Shane Crawford'?
We are desperate for good young players. Sadly tough calls need to be made. We cant keep all these veterans .
Re: what to make of the intangibles?
I think I'd prefer Joey as the role model. A late draft pick he's never had the media attention of Dal Santo, but he worked his way into an elite status.Con Gorozidis wrote:this year we hadmaverick wrote:See I am not so sure about that.
Using Shane Crawford as an example.
He was 30 odd when Buddy, Roughy, Lewis & Ellis were recruited in 2004/2005.
By 2007 they were playing finals and had won a premiership, with him as a key player when he was 34.
I think Dal could still be part of things myself, especially as he could play off the HBF.
hayes, milne, kosi, riewoldt, dal, fisher, montagna, blake, dempster, schneider - all senior 'leaders' , 'mentors' and 'helpers' and we finished 3rd bottom.
How many mentor/leaders do we need and do people think they really help as much as we like to imagine?
Maybe Joey will be a key player at 34?
What if it comes down to keeping Joey or Dal?
Maybe Joey can be our 'Shane Crawford' in your example? Maybe Roo will be our 'Shane Crawford'?
We are desperate for good young players. Sadly tough calls need to be made. We cant keep all these veterans .
Forget about Saad, Milera, TDL. Plonk Joey in the forward line, he could be our version of Paul Chapman without the injuries.