If Lyon had stayed at the Saints

[White Winmar]

What would our team be like now? Would he have attempted to keep "topping up" the list, while squeezing the last drops of effort from our core of veteran guns? Would Goddard still be a saint? Would we have won more than three games this year? What would the list look like?

I'm firmly of the belief that Lyon never intended to stay beyond 2011. He knew the gig was up, and as much I appreciate his years in charge, I get the feeling that in the end, when we didn't salute, we became a stepping stone in his coaching CV. If the shockers had not offered him a great deal, and he was stuck with us, as he put it, at "the end of an era", what do you think he would've done? Crystal balls at the ready, Saintsationalists!

[Teflon]

Must say Ive wondered this and really who knows?

This question is as much about Lyons ability to "build" with a list as it about being a good coach - that remains unanswered.

Crystal balling is tough - part of me says he couldnt keep topping up cause ageing stars would bite him and the club was losing patience already....but equally, had he gone the Watters tough road and still tried to implement the same game plan....not sure that could work for him either. It was fine to kick bugger all scores and strangle sides when your 19-0..........when you are 3-xx...........playing that brand....not sure he'd have gotten the same grace.

On reflection Lyon did himself a favour and most likely St Kilda.

Still a great coach who has PROVEN again he can get a list to adhere to his discipline like few can.

[SainterK]

This is just my opinion....

I'd say we'd have a few more wins in bank, we'd be playing a heavily flooded game...none of this learning to win your one on one that Scott is trying to achieve.

We may of picked up a mature age or two (or three or four) from the last two seasons trade weeks.

BJ would still be around.

He'd have struggled with the injuries to Kosi, Blake, Fisher, Schneider though preferring the bigger seasoned bodies.

Armo would be gone, maybe some others as well would of left for more opportunity?

We would not be in the eight though, surely?

[Hallalj#3]

I for one wish he did stay.. He's the best in the game widely regarded as so, you have the best at something you dont let them go, i really don't think the club wanted him to stay 100% and i think in the end Ross new that. ATM i can't really see what Watters is trying to implement, what does he stand for as a coach?

Last yr i thought okay we are going to be a attacking side that takes risks play on through the middle. This year has been a different approach i think he Loves how Hawthorn play and i do too, so if we are going to be a skilled team a team that loves uncontested marks that's fine, like i said i love how Hawthorn play..

But defensively we are disgusting this is where if Ross was still coach i think it wouldn't matter who is in your team you have a structure where every player knows his role. Would we have the talent to be in the finals if our list was at 100% all year i'd say yes we would be. But in saying that Watters is doing all the right things in a development sense i think he does have a good eye for talent more so then lyon our last 2 draft suggestest that.

So the differnence between the 2. I think Watters is going to be Very good when he gets the list he wants so sign him up till 2016. Ross doesn't need a great list he has a great plan which will always have him on top of the pile in my opinion.

[SainterK]

I for one wish he did stay.. He's the best in the game widely regarded as so, you have the best at something you dont let them go, i really don't think the club wanted him to stay 100% and i think in the end Ross new that. ATM i can't really see what Watters is trying to implement, what does he stand for as a coach?

Last yr i thought okay we are going to be a attacking side that takes risks play on through the middle. This year has been a different approach i think he Loves how Hawthorn play and i do too, so if we are going to be a skilled team a team that loves uncontested marks that's fine, like i said i love how Hawthorn play..

But defensively we are disgusting this is where if Ross was still coach i think it wouldn't matter who is in your team you have a structure where every player knows his role. Would we have the talent to be in the finals if our list was at 100% all year i'd say yes we would be. But in saying that Watters is doing all the right things in a development sense i think he does have a good eye for talent more so then lyon our last 2 draft suggestest that.

So the differnence between the 2. I think Watters is going to be Very good when he gets the list he wants so sign him up till 2016. Ross doesn't need a great list he has a great plan which will always have him on top of the pile in my opinion.

I've been sceptical of some of Watters selection decisions this year, but really, did anyone see what Ross was trying to implement in 2007?

It wasn't until the preseason competition of 2009 that something resembling a gameplan emerged.

[Hallalj#3]

I for one wish he did stay.. He's the best in the game widely regarded as so, you have the best at something you dont let them go, i really don't think the club wanted him to stay 100% and i think in the end Ross new that. ATM i can't really see what Watters is trying to implement, what does he stand for as a coach?

Last yr i thought okay we are going to be a attacking side that takes risks play on through the middle. This year has been a different approach i think he Loves how Hawthorn play and i do too, so if we are going to be a skilled team a team that loves uncontested marks that's fine, like i said i love how Hawthorn play..

But defensively we are disgusting this is where if Ross was still coach i think it wouldn't matter who is in your team you have a structure where every player knows his role. Would we have the talent to be in the finals if our list was at 100% all year i'd say yes we would be. But in saying that Watters is doing all the right things in a development sense i think he does have a good eye for talent more so then lyon our last 2 draft suggestest that.

So the differnence between the 2. I think Watters is going to be Very good when he gets the list he wants so sign him up till 2016. Ross doesn't need a great list he has a great plan which will always have him on top of the pile in my opinion.

I've been sceptical of some of Watters selection decisions this year, but really, did anyone see what Ross was trying to implement in 2007?

It wasn't until the preseason competition of 2009 that something resembling a gameplan emerged.

Yeah he was trying to teach our players 2 way football. if you remember how many games where we would run out of gas in the second half because we weren't fit enough.

[Teflon]

I for one wish he did stay.. He's the best in the game widely regarded as so, you have the best at something you dont let them go, i really don't think the club wanted him to stay 100% and i think in the end Ross new that. ATM i can't really see what Watters is trying to implement, what does he stand for as a coach?

Last yr i thought okay we are going to be a attacking side that takes risks play on through the middle. This year has been a different approach i think he Loves how Hawthorn play and i do too, so if we are going to be a skilled team a team that loves uncontested marks that's fine, like i said i love how Hawthorn play..

But defensively we are disgusting this is where if Ross was still coach i think it wouldn't matter who is in your team you have a structure where every player knows his role. Would we have the talent to be in the finals if our list was at 100% all year i'd say yes we would be. But in saying that Watters is doing all the right things in a development sense i think he does have a good eye for talent more so then lyon our last 2 draft suggestest that.

So the differnence between the 2. I think Watters is going to be Very good when he gets the list he wants so sign him up till 2016. Ross doesn't need a great list he has a great plan which will always have him on top of the pile in my opinion.

I've been sceptical of some of Watters selection decisions this year, but really, did anyone see what Ross was trying to implement in 2007?

It wasn't until the preseason competition of 2009 that something resembling a gameplan emerged.

I think most knew in 2007 Lyon wanted greater defence and that was his trademark - the questions were around could we deliver/buy into it.

When we did in 2009 we were dominant - a side most feared to play against and going to the footy was all about "expecting" to win cause we did.

[Munga]

I wouldn't even bother contemplating it. Lyon is "a career coach", he's not interested in building a list. He saw the writing on the wall and put us in the 'too hard' basket.
As soon as Freo are over the hill he'll be out of there too.

[whiskers3614]

If Lyon had stayed Sandringham may have been undefeated this year & last.
Newnes,Murdoch,Roberton,Wright Etc Etc would have barely started their four year apprenticeships!

[saintsRrising]

What would our team be like now? Would he have attempted to keep "topping up" the list, while squeezing the last drops of effort from our core of veteran guns? Would Goddard still be a saint? Would we have won more than three games this year? What would the list look like?

Pelchen was appointed BEFORE Lyon left

Pelchen is the one making the calls re the list.

So to answer your questions:

* List would be the alsmost the same. Zac would still be at the Saints.
* Goddard would be at Essendon. He left as the Don's got into him with $$$$$ and as we are presently rebuilding, rather than in flag mode.
* I would imagine that we would have won more games as Zac would still have been at FB, and our defence would thus be have functionally been a lot better.

[SaintPav]

No doubt we would have won more games and may have played finals last year.

We would have won maybe up to 6 more games this season but no finals.

So overall, more wins, less player development.

We also would have been boring as dog sh!t to watch.

[WellardSaint]

Hard to look back at what might have been. Like looking at a house that you sold 2 years ago.
Better to look forward and be positive.

[samuraisaint]

I've expected to win every match since the begiining of 2003. I still think we can beat Sydney. Crazy? Maybe, but I reckon we could win all three games in the final rounds. Not saying we will, just saying I think we could.

[samuraisaint]

No doubt we would have won more games and may have played finals last year.

We would have won maybe up to 6 more games this season but no finals.

So overall, more wins, less player development.

We also would have been boring as dog sh!t to watch.

Yep. I think that is what we would have if Lyon had stayed. It is arguably better to bottom right out anyway. Alright for Geelong and the Bulldogs with their father-son selections. Lockett, Frawley and Burkey all had daughters

Although, looking ahead a decade or so, Everitt has said that he wants his son to front up for the Saints, and Harvs has Connor

[bergholt]

I wouldn't even bother contemplating it. Lyon is "a career coach", he's not interested in building a list. He saw the writing on the wall and put us in the 'too hard' basket.
As soon as Freo are over the hill he'll be out of there too.

Fair enough too. I'd leave my job if it looked like we were all going to get fired in a couple of years anyway. No-one in football is loyal except the supporters - that's just the way it is.

[spert]

What if Harvey had have stayed on as coach at Freo, and had a fit list this season? Probably would have done pretty well.

[plugger66]

What if Harvey had have stayed on as coach at Freo, and had a fit list this season? Probably would have done pretty well.

They havent had a fit list though. probably be 8th at the moment. No idea actually. RL would have continued to play the young guys as he did in his final year because he wouldnt have had much choice. Who knows how we would be going. One think I could guess though is we would be more wins but still heading south. Time was up for RL. And we will know in a few year whether we have the right coach now.

[spert]

I remember in Lyon's final year with us, that he was being widely criticised for not blooding young players, and finally relented, but when asked, you could sense he wasn't happy about it, and probably made his mind up to go at that stage.

[skeptic]

I dunno, I think he might have done ok in that he clearly u/s that the list had past its peak and he needed to rebuild

He would mot likely have thrown heaven and earth to maintain the structure of the list so I dare say we'd have some at FB now and I think we'd def look better than we do now.

My ??? though relate to the speed of the build up... it's very clear that the current team are aware of the full term rebuild hence are not rushing out and paying overs or short period players to get the necessary specialist areas covered.

E.g. Would RL have drafted another equivalent of Matty Clarke and left a Barry Brooks in the VFL? Would he have traded a first rounder for a ready made fullback that was just ok?

Watters seems more than happy to wait until the right deal comes up.

Much like with SW, if RL stayed on, the jury would be out

[gringo]

I think he never intended staying unless there was nothing on offer. My mate who's dad was a board member for Freo for about 10 years told me that he had been talking to them well before the announcement including a shopping list of support staff who were conveniently all ready to go. I think we might have had no Armo by the sounds of it and Cripps and Lynch pretty much were on the way out as he left so a lot would have been forced on him.

Finey was on the radio saying that players knew where they stood with him as the all powerful coach and they played for him- he didn't want anything to do with Sandy players unless the door was being ripped down.

Pelchen was apparently the catalyst for Lyon getting shitty about the way we were treating him- he saw it as them putting a boss in over the top of him and limiting his vision for the club. It seems some on the board were getting worried about the lack of quality being developed internally. He definitely seems to have gone too far in his trying to find rough diamonds at other clubs.

[stinger]

melbourne thought that he had committed to them...so...no he wasn't staying.....he was stuffed with us as far as a premiership was concerned the moment he gave bally the arse..ad he knew it...it was only the massive hearts and talents of our top remaining players in roo, bj, dal,joey, fish and lenny that kept us in it in 2010.....

[Kickit]

I'd be questioning whether Lyon would be as good at young player development as Watters.
I'd also be wondering about the sustainability of his game plan.
He demands 100% from all of his players all of the time, on field and off.
OK you can absolutely do this for a couple of years when you have the belief and the blood pumping. But can you do it every season for a decade, through the highs and lows?
To me the Saints were only really really good for part of the 2009 season, they peaked early and, while still good, were not as dominant during finals.
2010 we were pretty lame really, we won a huge number of games by the skin of our teeth. Take away a bit of luck and you had the 2011 season.

Lyons game plan consisted of putting numbers back. In the end ( when we weren't playing two legit ruckmen ) that often meant we only had one full time tall forward, which meant that the forward had to be pretty damn good just to function. Replace Riewoldt ( in that game plan ) with Beau Maister and we would have been lucky to score anything.
Then weaken the backline, take away the full back and injure Fisher, and we have a game plan that would have leaked goals while giving very little opportunity to score.

[Bluthy]

Well put Kickit.

THE THINGS PEOPLE FORGET ABOUT LYON

1) Lyon waltzed in to an unbelievable finals hardened list who had bonded strongly - Roo, Hayes, Ball, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Milne, Fisher, Gilbo etc etc etc. Even Thomas (who a lot of people still scratch their how the hell he got an AFL coaching job) could get this team into prelims.

2) His teams could never score enough in big games as he was obsessively defensive minded and risk averse. Esp in Grand finals when goals are at a premium we never had the structure to get enough points on the scoreboard. We just scraped home in prelims as well.

3) Recruiting for the future/young player development IS part of the coaches job. He neglected this badly (albeit supported by the club desperate for a 2nd flag).

4) His obsessive unrelenting style creates burn out in players and staff. He said the next four games for Freo will be treated like Grand finals! He treats players like robots you can run at top speed all year. He doesn't seem to have any concept of peaking for the finals.

[matrix]

i couldnt give a crap
he is gone
im glad he is gone

imo we wouldnt be seeing ten new players this year if he had of stayed

soon as that siren went in GF2 most of us knew the ride was over
it was time to regroup and think of the future

[sunsaint]

He would be less wealthy. FULLSTOP