Caro's Arrow...

[SainterK]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.

Reverse the accuracy equation and we win.

We effectively lost both GF's by a kick.

You could go over each of those games and point to just about any event or stat to 'prove' just about any theory you care to.

It's brain damage territory.

You don't think it lies somewhere in the middle though mark?

I'm sure the coaches and players all replay moments and wish they'd done better.

Ross himself mused about it when interviewed walking of the field on the day, he knew he should of given Luke a couple more 'bursts' or something like that....that was what he himself processed as a major reason for losing.

I guess I get annoyed that since then, he mentions players running into open goals and missing, and nothing about his own 'what ifs'

You're all in it together.

Aren't you?

[markp]

You don't think it lies somewhere in the middle though mark?

I'm sure the coaches and players all replay moments and wish they'd done better.

Ross himself mused about it when interviewed walking of the field on the day, he knew he should of given Luke a couple more 'bursts' or something like that....that was what he himself processed as a major reason for losing.

I guess I get annoyed that since then, he mentions players running into open goals and missing, and nothing about his own 'what ifs'

You're all in it together.

Aren't you?

It lies somewhere in the middle if you want it to.

That's my point.

Who the hell knows, maybe if Ball played longer we would've lost by more...? (And I thought Lyon said could've, not should've)

Though if we'd kicked straighter you could say it is closer to a dead certainty we would've won.

I personally just blame the footy gods... I distinctly remember at the start of the last in 2009 that it started raining in our forward line but not theirs... and thinking 'oh dear...'

[southernsaint]

Well maybe she is right and maybe she is wrong but i know one thing it dosent matter time to look forward and forget the past, the only thing that matters is this rebuild so we can finally get our hands on that cup

[spert]

When we pull out our AFL history book, there's no mention of how close, or if only the bounce went the other way, or various other excuses etc...it shows who won the premiership that year or any year, and who was the coach- the coach of the premiership team, and they are rated as top coaches- that's all that counts. Let's move on

[kosifantutti]

When we pull out our AFL history book, there's no mention of how close, or if only the bounce went the other way, or various other excuses etc...it shows who won the premiership that year or any year, and who was the coach- the coach of the premiership team, and they are rated as top coaches- that's all that counts. Let's move on

My book gives me the scores. You need a better book.

[SaintPav]

When we pull out our AFL history book, there's no mention of how close, or if only the bounce went the other way, or various other excuses etc...it shows who won the premiership that year or any year, and who was the coach- the coach of the premiership team, and they are rated as top coaches- that's all that counts. Let's move on

I wish I was as stoic as you.

For the rest of us, here's ten easy steps to be more stoic and to learn to let things go. Good luck.

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Stoic

[SaintPav]

When we pull out our AFL history book, there's no mention of how close, or if only the bounce went the other way, or various other excuses etc...it shows who won the premiership that year or any year, and who was the coach- the coach of the premiership team, and they are rated as top coaches- that's all that counts. Let's move on

I wish I was as stoic as you.

For the rest of us, here's ten easy steps to be more stoic and to learn to let things go. Good luck.

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Stoic

I just read this. I'd rather be f****** dead than live like that.

[Johnny Member]

I'm saying JB is harsh on the players, and the coach always shares some responsibility for the outcome surely?

Dont think I am harsh at all. Bad kicking is bad football.

If 7.7 is translated into 9.5 or 10.4 we are three or four goals up at halftime on a wet windy Grand Final day.

The outcome may well have been the same, nobody can tell.

And thats my whole point.

All this blaming of Lyon for doing this and not doing that etc.

Were you aware that we were in the bottom 7 for accuracy in 2009. And Geelong were above us.

In 2010 Collingwood were 5% more accurate than us for the season. From 2009-2010 our accuracy didn't improve.


To be shocked that we kicked poorly in the GF is strange. We'd been coached a certain, played a certain way - and then lo and behold, repeated it in the GFs!



It was no fluke we kicked poorly.

[SainterK]

No, he selected players that weren't a given in front of goal.

Even selected them for two more grand final appearances after that.

So he backed them in knowing that.

No point lamenting someone for missing who often misses.

[kosifantutti]

No, he selected players that weren't a given in front of goal.

Even selected them for two more grand final appearances after that.

So he backed them in knowing that.

No point lamenting someone for missing who often misses.

How many do we have who are a "given" in front of goal? Kosi was playing, Schneider was playing, Milne, Goddard both played. Should we have dropped Riewoldt?

[kosifantutti]

I'm saying JB is harsh on the players, and the coach always shares some responsibility for the outcome surely?

Dont think I am harsh at all. Bad kicking is bad football.

If 7.7 is translated into 9.5 or 10.4 we are three or four goals up at halftime on a wet windy Grand Final day.

The outcome may well have been the same, nobody can tell.

And thats my whole point.

All this blaming of Lyon for doing this and not doing that etc.

Were you aware that we were in the bottom 7 for accuracy in 2009. And Geelong were above us.

In 2010 Collingwood were 5% more accurate than us for the season. From 2009-2010 our accuracy didn't improve.


To be shocked that we kicked poorly in the GF is strange. We'd been coached a certain, played a certain way - and then lo and behold, repeated it in the GFs!



It was no fluke we kicked poorly.

Where are these stats coming from? In 2009 55% of our scoring shots were goals and Geelong were only 54%.

We were at 55% again in 2010 and Collingwood at 50%. Both years we were above the average.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/seas/2009.html#lad
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/seas/2010.html#lad

[saintsRrising]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.
.

There are misses, and then there are misses.

I am not sure if you recall the game in the first half or not, but a lot of our misses were dead easy sodas. Easy shots missed from very close to goal. Shots that should have been goals 99% of the time.

How on earth Mini ever missed his for example (probably too busy mentally celebrating!!)....

The Cats misses were normal misses in the game.

And if we had drill all of the chances that we should have gotten (ie all the easy ones) then the game would have been virtually over BEFORE half time. We were dominating except on the scoreboard.

Then Hawkins kicked a behind and was awarded a goal (so you may want to adjust your figures...) just when the Cats were really struggling to kick a goal. The ball then went to the middle and within a minute Gablett had another Cats goal. Game momentum shifted and Cats got back into a game that should have been by then beyond their reach,

We had our foot on their throats, but failed to push down when we had the chance.

In a GF your opponent is likely to be a good team too. It is odd thinking to think that on any given game that they will not have runs too, and players who will get on top.
That is why it matters a great deal what you do when your team has it's run. Our run was most of the first half, but we scored no where near the number of goals that we should have for the play we had.

Our misses were not just misses. but amazingly poor misses. Not just one, but many.

The Cats players took their chances, the Saints players missed many of theirs in that first half.

[joffaboy]

No, he selected players that weren't a given in front of goal.

Even selected them for two more grand final appearances after that.

So he backed them in knowing that.

No point lamenting someone for missing who often misses.

Like to comment on kosifantuitti's stats quoted above?

Instead of relying on JMembers made up figures, maybe have a look at what kosi quoted.

On BTW Milne, Schneider, Roo and Kosi are all high scoring forwards.

Who would you have dropped?

[joffaboy]

There are misses, and then there are misses.

I am not sure if you recall the game in the first half or not, but a lot of our misses were dead easy sodas. Easy shots missed from very close to goal. Shots that should have been goals 99% of the time.

How on earth Mini ever missed his for example (probably too busy mentally celebrating!!)....

The Cats misses were normal misses in the game.

And if we had drill all of the chances that we should have gotten (ie all the easy ones) then the game would have been virtually over BEFORE half time. We were dominating except on the scoreboard.

Then Hawkins kicked a behind and was awarded a goal (so you may want to adjust your figures...) just when the Cats were really struggling to kick a goal. The ball then went to the middle and within a minute Gablett had another Cats goal. Game momentum shifted and Cats got back into a game that should have been by then beyond their reach,

We had our foot on their throats, but failed to push down when we had the chance.

In a GF your opponent is likely to be a good team too. It is odd thinking to think that on any given game that they will not have runs too, and players who will get on top.
That is why it matters a great deal what you do when your team has it's run. Our run was most of the first half, but we scored no where near the number of goals that we should have for the play we had.

Our misses were not just misses. but amazingly poor misses. Not just one, but many.

The Cats players took their chances, the Saints players missed many of theirs in that first half.

+1

Exactly right.

However many Lyon haters overlook this salient fact and concentrate on if a midfielder should have got 5.6% mkore time on the field or not.

[SainterK]

I'm not a Lyon hater.

I just think his DNA is as much over the grannies as the players.

[Johnny Member]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.
.

There are misses, and then there are misses.

I am not sure if you recall the game in the first half or not, but a lot of our misses were dead easy sodas. Easy shots missed from very close to goal. Shots that should have been goals 99% of the time.

How on earth Mini ever missed his for example (probably too busy mentally celebrating!!)....

The Cats misses were normal misses in the game.

And if we had drill all of the chances that we should have gotten (ie all the easy ones) then the game would have been virtually over BEFORE half time. We were dominating except on the scoreboard.

Then Hawkins kicked a behind and was awarded a goal (so you may want to adjust your figures...) just when the Cats were really struggling to kick a goal. The ball then went to the middle and within a minute Gablett had another Cats goal. Game momentum shifted and Cats got back into a game that should have been by then beyond their reach,

We had our foot on their throats, but failed to push down when we had the chance.

In a GF your opponent is likely to be a good team too. It is odd thinking to think that on any given game that they will not have runs too, and players who will get on top.
That is why it matters a great deal what you do when your team has it's run. Our run was most of the first half, but we scored no where near the number of goals that we should have for the play we had.

Our misses were not just misses. but amazingly poor misses. Not just one, but many.

The Cats players took their chances, the Saints players missed many of theirs in that first half.

Are there any examples of goals that we kicked that could be considered 'lucky' or 'abnormal' goals?


For every easy one we missed, the tough ones need to be considered also.

[Johnny Member]

No, he selected players that weren't a given in front of goal.

Even selected them for two more grand final appearances after that.

So he backed them in knowing that.

No point lamenting someone for missing who often misses.

Like to comment on kosifantuitti's stats quoted above?

Instead of relying on JMembers made up figures, maybe have a look at what kosi quoted.

On BTW Milne, Schneider, Roo and Kosi are all high scoring forwards.

Who would you have dropped?

They're not made up.

They don't count simple 'goals and behinds'. They count actual misses and don't include rushed behinds.


Therefore, are far more relevant to this discussion.

[Enrico_Misso]

There are misses, and then there are misses.

I am not sure if you recall the game in the first half or not, but a lot of our misses were dead easy sodas. Easy shots missed from very close to goal. Shots that should have been goals 99% of the time.

How on earth Mini ever missed his for example (probably too busy mentally celebrating!!)....

The Cats misses were normal misses in the game.

And if we had drill all of the chances that we should have gotten (ie all the easy ones) then the game would have been virtually over BEFORE half time. We were dominating except on the scoreboard.

Then Hawkins kicked a behind and was awarded a goal (so you may want to adjust your figures...) just when the Cats were really struggling to kick a goal. The ball then went to the middle and within a minute Gablett had another Cats goal. Game momentum shifted and Cats got back into a game that should have been by then beyond their reach,

We had our foot on their throats, but failed to push down when we had the chance.

In a GF your opponent is likely to be a good team too. It is odd thinking to think that on any given game that they will not have runs too, and players who will get on top.
That is why it matters a great deal what you do when your team has it's run. Our run was most of the first half, but we scored no where near the number of goals that we should have for the play we had.

Our misses were not just misses. but amazingly poor misses. Not just one, but many.

The Cats players took their chances, the Saints players missed many of theirs in that first half.

+1

Exactly right.

However many Lyon haters overlook this salient fact and concentrate on if a midfielder should have got 5.6% mkore time on the field or not.

Totally agree on that first half.
The Schneider miss was the worst of many.

The stat that most sticks in my mind was that at half time no side since they began recording inside 50s had EVER had a bigger positive differential and gone on to lose a game.
That's statistical talk for "WE EFFIN BLEW IT"

[markp]

The truth is it was Raph's fault.

[Dis Believer]

I am not sure if you recall the game in the first half or not, but a lot of our misses were dead easy sodas. Easy shots missed from very close to goal. Shots that should have been goals 99% of the time.

How on earth Mini ever missed his for example (probably too busy mentally celebrating!!)....

The Cats misses were normal misses in the game.

And if we had drill all of the chances that we should have gotten (ie all the easy ones) then the game would have been virtually over BEFORE half time. We were dominating except on the scoreboard.

Then Hawkins kicked a behind and was awarded a goal (so you may want to adjust your figures...) just when the Cats were really struggling to kick a goal. The ball then went to the middle and within a minute Gablett had another Cats goal. Game momentum shifted and Cats got back into a game that should have been by then beyond their reach,

We had our foot on their throats, but failed to push down when we had the chance.

In a GF your opponent is likely to be a good team too. It is odd thinking to think that on any given game that they will not have runs too, and players who will get on top.
That is why it matters a great deal what you do when your team has it's run. Our run was most of the first half, but we scored no where near the number of goals that we should have for the play we had.

Our misses were not just misses. but amazingly poor misses. Not just one, but many.

The Cats players took their chances, the Saints players missed many of theirs in that first half.

Really good post. I remember saying at quarter time that I hoped we weren't kicking ourselves out of the game. Had the scoreboard been 12.2 - 7.1 Geelong would have been on the verge of being mentally gone, and our guys would have had some breathing space to cope with an onslaught, ride it out, and then snag a couple of goals and snuff out the challenge. A four to five goal advantage in the wet is worth a hell of a lot more than a one or two goal lead and has a different impact on the mentality of your opponent. We kicked ourselves out of a flag early in that game. Accept it, move on, and don't repeat the mistake. Recruit palyers with good footskills and train to maximise accuracy. A team that maximises its scoring opportunities doesn't have to work as hard, as it doesn't have to generate as many opportunities. It is conceivable to extrapolate that to the theory that it is possible to enjoy a lower injury rate if your team is more accurate.

[joffaboy]

Are there any examples of goals that we kicked that could be considered 'lucky' or 'abnormal' goals?


For every easy one we missed, the tough ones need to be considered also.

I remeber Clint Jones bouncing one through from a ball up that was tough/lucky.

Cant remember any others. Can remember at least four gimme's that we missed.

7.7 to 7.1 at HT. 9.3 or 10.4 at HT and we probably win.

But......like surmising idf Ball should have been played a % more if Raph should have been benched or if Roo should have moved up the ground or any other alternate reality, just one of those behinds becomes a goal and the game changes. The ball goes back to the middle and the whole future of the game is different.

My whole point, one change in isolation, in hindsight means the whole game changes one way or another.

[joffaboy]

I'm not a Lyon hater.

I just think his DNA is as much over the grannies as the players.

Didn't say you were.

Of course Lyon had a major influence. My beef are those who try to equate a positional change here or there and then saying Lyon lost us the GF.

It is all based on the fact he is not the Saints coach anymore. Everyone takes responsibility for the loss not just the players, not just the coach, but everyone.

Who takes responsibility for our list nowdays?

Lyon.

[kosifantutti]

No, he selected players that weren't a given in front of goal.

Even selected them for two more grand final appearances after that.

So he backed them in knowing that.

No point lamenting someone for missing who often misses.

Like to comment on kosifantuitti's stats quoted above?

Instead of relying on JMembers made up figures, maybe have a look at what kosi quoted.

On BTW Milne, Schneider, Roo and Kosi are all high scoring forwards.

Who would you have dropped?

They're not made up.

They don't count simple 'goals and behinds'. They count actual misses and don't include rushed behinds.


Therefore, are far more relevant to this discussion.

If you could quote the source they would be relevant.

[SainterK]

I'm not a Lyon hater.

I just think his DNA is as much over the grannies as the players.

Didn't say you were.

Of course Lyon had a major influence. My beef are those who try to equate a positional change here or there and then saying Lyon lost us the GF.

It is all based on the fact he is not the Saints coach anymore. Everyone takes responsibility for the loss not just the players, not just the coach, but everyone.

Who takes responsibility for our list nowdays?

Lyon.

Yes everyone.

That is what I'm trying to say.

The premise if this thread started because someone wanted to highlight one if these negatives.

Which is fair.

[SaintPav]

I was standing on ground level that day in 09. While they probably should have nailed a couple, it was a wet and windy day so the so called "sodas" were not as easy as some suggest.