Eight years of pain coming ...

[plugger66]

Hearing this from Terry Wallace it gives me great hope. He forgets that not every list is managed by a clown like himself and the way he butchered Richmonds list is in no way a indication of other clubs list management.

agree
wallace is a flog of the highest order !
I have no idea why the media think he is so fantastic .
In 12 seasons of coaching he coached the dogs to 2 victories in finals , and the tigers never played finals !
WOW !!!!!! what a supercoach !

So that means he is wrong? Tell us how he is wrong.

[markp]

Pain is watching years of drama and building come to nought.

Pain is missing out on a flag by a toe poke, then another by a bounce.

Several years of development may not always be fun but it doesn't have to be painful.

As long as we learn the lessons of the past... and we don't implode or fritter away our opportunities.

Let's hope the footy gods have big plans for the player destined to be pick 3.

[Megamaguire]

Saints need to get the best 'A' grade midfielder the club can get to start building a midfield that has some realistic chance of pushing into the top HALF of the table. I'm wondering how the club will think in the hypothetical scenario where the best fwd. in the 2013 draft (lets call him Boyd if he is that player) is available at pick #3 or #2 but the second or third rated midfielder is also available as well.
Make it simple and just pick who you think is the best player or if it's very close
in regard to impressions go with a potential 'A' Grade MID?

Perhaps this is a pointless question but looking into the crystal ball even if we secured Plugger Mark 2
with a severely compromised midfield would it improve the team enough.
or the reverse - go with a highly rated mid ?
I can only speculate but hopefully the recruiting brains trust are all across the top 10 cream of the draft for 2013.
I can just see this conundrum presenting itself to St.Kilda Football Club come draft day.

G O S A I N T S!

[Con Gorozidis]

We need to make every decision a winner.
That means who we let go and who we keep.
who we trade and who we draft
AND
Same for all coaching staff - not just the head coach.
We cant afford to make the mistakes we made from 2006-2010.
Everyone blames that on the 'Lyon era' - but his job was just head coach - he cant be expected to do everything. The recruiting and development was appalling and that wasnt the head coachs problem. It was club-wide.

[Dis Believer]

WE will be bottom four or botom six next year. WE won't be much better the follwoing year but I expect to see us finishing the 2015 season stronger than we start it. that will have been two more off-seasons/preseasons and given that we turned over half our list int he past two off-seasons. I think the potential for list development is huge in that period. The kids that are playing now who are under 30 games (many under 10 games) will be in the 50 to 100 game bracket by that stage with two more pre-seasons of conditioning. We are currently playing boys against men - you can't win that way.

Ross, Wright, Newnes, Markworth, Steven, Roberton & Webster will all be top shelf. White could be exceptional.

[tony74]

WE will be bottom four or botom six next year. WE won't be much better the follwoing year but I expect to see us finishing the 2015 season stronger than we start it. that will have been two more off-seasons/preseasons and given that we turned over half our list int he past two off-seasons. I think the potential for list development is huge in that period. The kids that are playing now who are under 30 games (many under 10 games) will be in the 50 to 100 game bracket by that stage with two more pre-seasons of conditioning. We are currently playing boys against men - you can't win that way.

Ross, Wright, Newnes, Markworth, Steven, Roberton & Webster will all be top shelf. White could be exceptional.

I agree with most of that but I think you will see the improvement at the end of next year and a very solid season in 2015. We have plenty of room for some serious list development next year and a further pre season into the young mid fielders will do them an enormous help. Try to view some early footage of Dal and Joey and you can see how important strength and conditioning is. I think in exactly 12 months we will still be poor but that will be our lowest ebb and we will finish off 2014 season with optimism. And we will have a player that kids will want to put that number on their jumper. And it's not who you think.

[SAAD]

We'll get there, there are peaks and valleys and right now we are in the valley. Give it 4-5 years and we should be starting to rise up the peaks again. We will be bottom of the ladder for the next 2-3 years though. About 7 years before we maybe have a decent enough list to contend for a granny.

We just have to hope we don't draft and DEVELOP players like Melbourne that is the key.

Also we have a bit of cash up our sleeve with Goddard, Gram, Lenny, Kosi all gone or on their way out this year so maybe we can pinch a few decent players who knows?

Sitting at the G yesterday with the game over at half time is going to be a common feeling for the next couple years.

And Tony74 who is that player?????

[thejiggingsaint]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

[Richter]

According to Terry Wallet. That's how long he reckons it will take for us to play finals again.

I sincerely hope the club is taking a shorter-term view as I'm not sure the membership as a whole will tolerate consistent failure over that sort of period.

I reckon the trajectory has to be upwards be the end of next season of Watters may be in trouble,

Its funny isnt it. All the scribes say that it will take 8 years, etc, etc, and yet they know that no coach will be given that time frame.

How the hell did port turn it around so fast. I am starting to wonder if we should have got Hinkley, but we would prob need kochie as well

Port got to a GF in 2007. In 5 seasons since then they have finished 10th twice and bottom 5 on 3 occasions. They are mid-table now and challenging for a spot in the lower half of the 8. Port drafted shrewdly in the years they were at the bottom... all of these players are under 23 and were top ten draft picks - Hartlett, Butcher, Moore, Wingard, Wines. In comparison our highest dp under 23 yo is Nathan Wright.

We have been beaten twice this season by 10 goals or more (Roos and Tigers)... but it had been around 6 years since we had such a loss.

So whilst there is bound to be some hand-wringing about out perfomances, a little context is useful. If we compare ourselves to Port Adelaide then we have another two seasons AFTER this one of finishing near the bottom of the table. If we transport ourselves forwards then by 2016 we will have a core of players who will be in their early to mids twenties (Steven, McEvoy, Armitage, Geary, Siposs, Ross, Saunders, Murdoch etc.) with a few older heads (Gwilt, Gilbert), possibly a couple of veterans (Joey, Dal) and a new brigade of under 21yos.... who should include at a minimum 3 top 5 dps and 3 top 25 dps.

By 2015/16 I expect us to bottom out. We then need to make sure that we are primed to resume a climb after that by emulating Port rather than doing what Melbourne did (double dipping). The rate of improvement after 2015/16 is clearly anyone's guess and depends on a number of factors, most important of which is the quality of the talent we pick up over the next three drafts and how we nurture those players.

[CURLY]

People under estimate how quickly a team can change simply by adding one player in the off season. If Mitch Brown SamGilbert and Fisher all played yesterday the result would have been vastly differant. That ripple effect cannot be undersold.

[Richter]

WE will be bottom four or botom six next year. WE won't be much better the follwoing year but I expect to see us finishing the 2015 season stronger than we start it. that will have been two more off-seasons/preseasons and given that we turned over half our list int he past two off-seasons. I think the potential for list development is huge in that period. The kids that are playing now who are under 30 games (many under 10 games) will be in the 50 to 100 game bracket by that stage with two more pre-seasons of conditioning. We are currently playing boys against men - you can't win that way.

Ross, Wright, Newnes, Markworth, Steven, Roberton & Webster will all be top shelf. White could be exceptional.

TB I think you're being over-optimistic.

At this stage I would say that all those players may certainly aspire to being B grade but some may not make it (Ross?) and some may overacheive (Wright?). Also White could be anything means that he could also be nothing. As far as I can gather apart from one gallop mid-season for the Zebs he has been pretty incognito this year... it is unusual for a top rated key forward to emerge from outside the top 5 of the draft (excluding father-sons) with Tex Walker, Jack Riewoldt and Kurt Tippett being exceptions. At this stage White is still more hope than anything else.

IMO we have been sliding for 2.5 years whilst the next 2.5 years being the pits... so I agree with your assx that it won't be until the second half of 2015 that we can expect to see a turn around in our fortunes. I hope to be wrong but it is also useful to be realistic.

[saintspremiers]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

Of course we are entering a 1998-2002 period. That is obvious.

[thejiggingsaint]

To you maybe (and blind freddy of course!) but many of us don't agree with your assessment SP

[maverick]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

Of course we are entering a 1998-2002 period. That is obvious.

Why do we think we are enetering 1998-2002?
I would have thought we are at least half way through the period.

[tweedaletomanning]

Pain is watching years of drama and building come to nought.

Pain is missing out on a flag by a toe poke, then another by a bounce.

Several years of development may not always be fun but it doesn't have to be painful.

As long as we learn the lessons of the past... and we don't implode or fritter away our opportunities.

Let's hope the footy gods have big plans for the player destined to be pick 3.

great post!

[SaintPav]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

Of course we are entering a 1998-2002 period. That is obvious.

Why do we think we are enetering 1998-2002?
I would have thought we are at least half way through the period.

hopefully 2013 is the equivalent of 2000.

[plugger66]

WE will be bottom four or botom six next year. WE won't be much better the follwoing year but I expect to see us finishing the 2015 season stronger than we start it. that will have been two more off-seasons/preseasons and given that we turned over half our list int he past two off-seasons. I think the potential for list development is huge in that period. The kids that are playing now who are under 30 games (many under 10 games) will be in the 50 to 100 game bracket by that stage with two more pre-seasons of conditioning. We are currently playing boys against men - you can't win that way.

Ross, Wright, Newnes, Markworth, Steven, Roberton & Webster will all be top shelf. White could be exceptional.

I agree with most of that but I think you will see the improvement at the end of next year and a very solid season in 2015. We have plenty of room for some serious list development next year and a further pre season into the young mid fielders will do them an enormous help. Try to view some early footage of Dal and Joey and you can see how important strength and conditioning is. I think in exactly 12 months we will still be poor but that will be our lowest ebb and we will finish off 2014 season with optimism. And we will have a player that kids will want to put that number on their jumper. And it's not who you think.

I dont get how that can happen in 2015. GC and GWS have had a huge number of picks and one has gone backwards in its second year and the other is still a year or 2 off finals. They have had many top 10 picks. We have had none and wont till this year and it will only be one top 10 pick. We also lose nearly all our previous AA players by 2015 and they will be replaced by only Steven, Ben and Matbe Armo has high end B graders. The kids who are playing now will have 50 games under their belt but none are top 10 picks which suggest we may fluke one or at the most 2 A graders by 2015. I cant see any side imprving with only 2 A graders and maybe 3 or 4 B graders and then the rest just kids. We are in for a few years of Pain IMO and hopefully our so called supporters hang in there.

[thejiggingsaint]

I'm in! Who's with me?

[Dis Believer]

I dont get how that can happen in 2015. GC and GWS have had a huge number of picks and one has gone backwards in its second year and the other is still a year or 2 off finals. They have had many top 10 picks. We have had none and wont till this year and it will only be one top 10 pick. We also lose nearly all our previous AA players by 2015 and they will be replaced by only Steven, Ben and Matbe Armo has high end B graders. The kids who are playing now will have 50 games under their belt but none are top 10 picks which suggest we may fluke one or at the most 2 A graders by 2015. I cant see any side imprving with only 2 A graders and maybe 3 or 4 B graders and then the rest just kids. We are in for a few years of Pain IMO and hopefully our so called supporters hang in there.

So we are only going to be drafting? No free agents or trades? Luke Ball went to Collingwood for pick 30 in the draft, I am sure we can manufacture similar deals, or simply free agent recruiting when we have struck a front-ended deal no-one else can match for a poor lost Victorian boy wanting to come home, ala Dylan Roberton........

[plugger66]

I dont get how that can happen in 2015. GC and GWS have had a huge number of picks and one has gone backwards in its second year and the other is still a year or 2 off finals. They have had many top 10 picks. We have had none and wont till this year and it will only be one top 10 pick. We also lose nearly all our previous AA players by 2015 and they will be replaced by only Steven, Ben and Matbe Armo has high end B graders. The kids who are playing now will have 50 games under their belt but none are top 10 picks which suggest we may fluke one or at the most 2 A graders by 2015. I cant see any side imprving with only 2 A graders and maybe 3 or 4 B graders and then the rest just kids. We are in for a few years of Pain IMO and hopefully our so called supporters hang in there.

So we are only going to be drafting? No free agents or trades? Luke Ball went to Collingwood for pick 30 in the draft, I am sure we can manufacture similar deals, or simply free agent recruiting when we have struck a front-ended deal no-one else can match for a poor lost Victorian boy wanting to come home, ala Dylan Roberton........

Of course we will trade and maybe get FA but it is very hard to get A graders doing that. GC and GWS have had better opportunities than us and look how they are going. GC improving but at least next year before finals and they also have one GA as well as so many picks we will not get. Out of the sides around us who will we be better than in 2015?

[PADDLEPOP1001]

Me!

[thejiggingsaint]

Eight years of pain? Ten years of pain? Twenty years of pain? Eight years of success? Ten years of success? Twenty years of success? throughout it all one thing will remain constant for this kiddie; I WILL SUPPORT MY CLUB! In whatever way I can!

[maverick]

WE will be bottom four or botom six next year. WE won't be much better the follwoing year but I expect to see us finishing the 2015 season stronger than we start it. that will have been two more off-seasons/preseasons and given that we turned over half our list int he past two off-seasons. I think the potential for list development is huge in that period. The kids that are playing now who are under 30 games (many under 10 games) will be in the 50 to 100 game bracket by that stage with two more pre-seasons of conditioning. We are currently playing boys against men - you can't win that way.

Ross, Wright, Newnes, Markworth, Steven, Roberton & Webster will all be top shelf. White could be exceptional.

I agree with most of that but I think you will see the improvement at the end of next year and a very solid season in 2015. We have plenty of room for some serious list development next year and a further pre season into the young mid fielders will do them an enormous help. Try to view some early footage of Dal and Joey and you can see how important strength and conditioning is. I think in exactly 12 months we will still be poor but that will be our lowest ebb and we will finish off 2014 season with optimism. And we will have a player that kids will want to put that number on their jumper. And it's not who you think.

I dont get how that can happen in 2015. GC and GWS have had a huge number of picks and one has gone backwards in its second year and the other is still a year or 2 off finals. They have had many top 10 picks. We have had none and wont till this year and it will only be one top 10 pick. We also lose nearly all our previous AA players by 2015 and they will be replaced by only Steven, Ben and Matbe Armo has high end B graders. The kids who are playing now will have 50 games under their belt but none are top 10 picks which suggest we may fluke one or at the most 2 A graders by 2015. I cant see any side imprving with only 2 A graders and maybe 3 or 4 B graders and then the rest just kids. We are in for a few years of Pain IMO and hopefully our so called supporters hang in there.

How many A graders did the Pies have in 2010?
Pendles
Swan

Maybe
Thomas

Cloke wasn't then
Their skipper was a rookie
Didak was at the tail end, like Kosi he is old for his age
Their key position players were teen picks at best.
They pinched Ball
They traded for Jolly

That's how it's done, they bottomed out for two years tops.

As I said in another thread, with all the top picks at two clubs, trading will be easier, we could do a 2000 trade period at the end of next year if we have the terrible year some on here are expecting.

[maverick]

Hearing this from Terry Wallace it gives me great hope. He forgets that not every list is managed by a clown like himself and the way he butchered Richmonds list is in no way a indication of other clubs list management.

agree
wallace is a flog of the highest order !
I have no idea why the media think he is so fantastic .
In 12 seasons of coaching he coached the dogs to 2 victories in finals , and the tigers never played finals !
WOW !!!!!! what a supercoach !

So that means he is wrong? Tell us how he is wrong.

it simply doesn't take 8 years, that's why he is wrong.

[plugger66]

agree
wallace is a flog of the highest order !
I have no idea why the media think he is so fantastic .
In 12 seasons of coaching he coached the dogs to 2 victories in finals , and the tigers never played finals !
WOW !!!!!! what a supercoach !

So that means he is wrong? Tell us how he is wrong.

it simply doesn't take 8 years, that's why he is wrong.

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.