Worries - BJ, young-gun mids, & where to from here?

[dragit]

As I said at the time, reckon this has cost at least 5000 members this year alone.

I honestly don't think it would have cost us any members…
in 2010, 2011 we had around 39,000…
then last year we had 35,000, this year it will be about 32,000
clubs clearly get more members when they play finals and are close to a premiership, but having Goddard this year wouldn't have meant either of those things would happen.

Unless you have met some disgruntled fans that have not renewed because we let Goddard go, I don't think the drop in numbers could possibly be attributed to this. I haven't met one, have you?

[gringo]

Roberton probably wouldn't have been picked up had BJ stayed and is offering more than last year with BJ on effort if not the class. We won't probably see if we win for up to 4 years. Hickey should be the archetypal ruckman in a few years. Lee has talent but raw.

BJ had to go because despite having a heap of past it players we were stretched in the salary cap. Essendon will probably end up stretched by putting him in so they will be raided. Just the new era of footy.

[cwrcyn]

Would Goddard make all the difference in 2014 when there's no Koschitzke, Hayes, Milne, Blake, Jones, and Gram like there were in 2012? He'd just be playing in an even more diluted mix of talent and don't forget, Goddard is not a ball winner like Hayes. Goddard is the icing, not the cake.

You have to move on at some point as a football club. You have to make decisions in the best interests of the club and there are a few types of short fixes, traps which our club has fallen into in the past. One is paying overs for a guy who is in the latter part his career because you fear a decline and you become desperate to hang onto any talent, not facing up to the fact that the decline is inevitable anyway, and all you're achieving is a temporary stay of execution. The other is picking up old players from other clubs due to the very same fear, trying to appease supporters and senior players, merely to tread water for the short term benefit of your coaching record.

Thankfully, Watters and Pelchen have not buckled at the knees. Hard and brave decisions have been made already, and they'll continue to be made. It started last year and it will continue for at least another 18 months, and I'm right behind them in this respect.

[maverick]

As I said at the time, reckon this has cost at least 5000 members this year alone.

I honestly don't think it would have cost us any members…
in 2010, 2011 we had around 39,000…
then last year we had 35,000, this year it will be about 32,000
clubs clearly get more members when they play finals and are close to a premiership, but having Goddard this year wouldn't have meant either of those things would happen.

Unless you have met some disgruntled fans that have not renewed because we let Goddard go, I don't think the drop in numbers could possibly be attributed to this. I haven't met one, have you?

Met a few that don't want to or aren't going much any more.
There are heaps of empty seats around my reserved seats, they were there previously.

[maverick]

Would Goddard make all the difference in 2014 when there's no Koschitzke, Hayes, Milne, Blake, Jones, and Gram like there were in 2012? He'd just be playing in an even more diluted mix of talent and don't forget, Goddard is not a ball winner like Hayes. Goddard is the icing, not the cake.

You have to move on at some point as a football club. You have to make decisions in the best interests of the club and there are a few types of short fixes, traps which our club has fallen into in the past. One is paying overs for a guy who is in the latter part his career because you fear a decline and you become desperate to hang onto any talent, not facing up to the fact that the decline is inevitable anyway, and all you're achieving is a temporary stay of execution. The other is picking up old players from other clubs due to the very same fear, trying to appease supporters and senior players, merely to tread water for the short term benefit of your coaching record.

Thankfully, Watters and Pelchen have not buckled at the knees. Hard and brave decisions have been made already, and they'll continue to be made. It started last year and it will continue for at least another 18 months, and I'm right behind them in this respect.

It's not overs to keep the structure and spirit of the club together.
You don't see the Cats offloading players for salary cap, they have built a culture.
We yet again are hell bent on destroying ours.

[Con Gorozidis]

It's not overs to keep the structure and spirit of the club together.
You don't see the Cats offloading players for salary cap, they have built a culture.
We yet again are hell bent on destroying ours.

1. Helps when you have 3 flags.
2. Ablett and Mumford left

[gringo]

It's not overs to keep the structure and spirit of the club together.
You don't see the Cats offloading players for salary cap, they have built a culture.
We yet again are hell bent on destroying ours.

1. Helps when you have 3 flags.
2. Ablett and Mumford left

And Ryan Gamble

[Rosco]

It's not overs to keep the structure and spirit of the club together.
You don't see the Cats offloading players for salary cap, they have built a culture.
We yet again are hell bent on destroying ours.

1. Helps when you have 3 flags.
2. Ablett and Mumford left

And Ryan Gamble

Charlie Gardiner.

Don't forget Steven King.


On the 95% salary cap payment and space for free agents - we don't need FAs now, we chase them when we are on the way up, are more attractive and know our biggest needs. Now is the time to develop what we have and draft what we don't. Sign the players we know we want to keep and front end their contracts, freeing up space for later.

[Scollop]

As I said at the time, reckon this has cost at least 5000 members this year alone.

Bollocks!! I renewed my membership at the end of last year and my 12 yr olds' junior membership but only been to 1 home game so far. We went to nearly every home game in '08, 2009 and 2010.

I honestly don't think it would have cost us any members…
in 2010, 2011 we had around 39,000…
then last year we had 35,000, this year it will be about 32,000
clubs clearly get more members when they play finals and are close to a premiership, but having Goddard this year wouldn't have meant either of those things would happen.

Unless you have met some disgruntled fans that have not renewed because we let Goddard go, I don't think the drop in numbers could possibly be attributed to this. I haven't met one, have you?

Spot on dragit. Just as you said; the decision on Goddard will be clearer in a couple of years time. Hopefully we draft well and maybe get some elite midfielders or a key defender. And I'm looking forward to seeing Lee and Hickey do everything required to earn their positions as regulars on our list

[Rosco]

Shannon Byrnes!!!

[Rosco]

As I said at the time, reckon this has cost at least 5000 members this year alone.

Bollocks!! I renewed my membership at the end of last year and my 12 yr olds' junior membership but only been to 1 home game so far. We went to nearly every home game in '08, 2009 and 2010.

I honestly don't think it would have cost us any members…
in 2010, 2011 we had around 39,000…
then last year we had 35,000, this year it will be about 32,000
clubs clearly get more members when they play finals and are close to a premiership, but having Goddard this year wouldn't have meant either of those things would happen.

Unless you have met some disgruntled fans that have not renewed because we let Goddard go, I don't think the drop in numbers could possibly be attributed to this. I haven't met one, have you?

Spot on dragit. Just as you said; the decision on Goddard will be clearer in a couple of years time. Hopefully we draft well and maybe get some elite midfielders or a key defender. And I'm looking forward to seeing Lee and Hickey do everything required to earn their positions as regulars on our list

agreed. the reason for not wanting to pay Goddard for the next 4 years is because we are not going to play finals and want to bottom out, develop with a spacious salary cap, and then attract FAs.

membership is down because we are not going to win many games and we are not going to play finals.

one didn't cause the other, the same thing caused both.

[maverick]

As I said at the time, reckon this has cost at least 5000 members this year alone.

Bollocks!! I renewed my membership at the end of last year and my 12 yr olds' junior membership but only been to 1 home game so far. We went to nearly every home game in '08, 2009 and 2010.

I honestly don't think it would have cost us any members…
in 2010, 2011 we had around 39,000…
then last year we had 35,000, this year it will be about 32,000
clubs clearly get more members when they play finals and are close to a premiership, but having Goddard this year wouldn't have meant either of those things would happen.

Unless you have met some disgruntled fans that have not renewed because we let Goddard go, I don't think the drop in numbers could possibly be attributed to this. I haven't met one, have you?

Spot on dragit. Just as you said; the decision on Goddard will be clearer in a couple of years time. Hopefully we draft well and maybe get some elite midfielders or a key defender. And I'm looking forward to seeing Lee and Hickey do everything required to earn their positions as regulars on our list

I'm glad you've renewed, just ring the other 5000 and ask where the bloody hell are you?
Supporters need hope we killed it.
The north game is only the beginning

[MrCordz]

by MrCordz » Sun 02 Dec 2012 12:50pm

Backline aside, I feel the major issue for us going forward will be midfield strength.
With the rest of the competition topping up with elite young midfielders over the past 3-4 years, we have done little in comparison and are in real danger in falling behind in this critical area.
With Goddard gone, Hayes in his last years and Dal and Montagna entering their twilight years I wonder how we are going to be able to get the ball to our surplus of forward talent after the next year or 2.
If you load up with forwards and have an elite midfield you can cover a weaker backline by pure weight of scoring.
Seb Ross, Ledger are stil unknowns - Steven and Armo are still a couple of pegs below elite. Ray and Jones will never be elite but fulfill roles.
THere is a situation developing there that has me a little worried as we build toward our next flag tilt in the next 5 years.
Humbly St. Kilda
MrCordz
Club Player

Posts: 125
Joined: Tue 21 Jun 2011 12:46pm
Location: Mordialloc

[cwrcyn]

Maverick, Geelong didn't waste their time and energy picking up the likes of Brett Peake, Dean Polo, Adam Pattison etc. Their management of their list supports the last part of my argument. And in many ways it supports the first part of my argument in that had we managed our list like Geelong, we would not have had to consider losing Goddard in order to get some talented young players into the club. We would already have had them on our list.

Watters is not trying to destroy our culture. How about if Watters, at the beginning of 2012, decided to keep playing all the existing older players on the list until 2015, without a regard for where the club would be positioned in 7 years time Does that sound familiar? And where has that strategy from 2007 to 2010 gotten us?.

Culture shmulture - one of the most over-used cliches in modern football. How about planning for tomorrow. How about just picking the best young talent available and putting time and effort into making them ready and capable for AFL football and ensuring that your list doesn't have a gaping hole in the middle of it.

[Megamaguire]

I know we need a big presence as in big defender to add 2 our defensive structures but we have to keep adding to our midfield possibilities on an annual basis for a while.
We can't just assume our current young guns will successfully and quickly transfer into magic midfielders.
My gut feeling is that the club needs to attract an A grade mid.
Attracting the likes of Hamill/ gehrig is one approach but carlton luring Judd from the clutches of WC was another structural approach solely focused on the midfield.
Obviously Judd was well estab. @ WC before joining carls... but to be honest i don't even know what type of brillient but slightly underpaid and established midfielder we could attract.
I hope the club already has some idea on who could be persuaded to come over and virtually do the impossible - fill the shoes of Lenny Hayes.
Fingers crossed.

GO SAINTS!

[Sainternist]

What? Anthony Kiedis is a St Kilda supporter? I hope not.

[Tevi]

Reading all these comments I think many of you miss the main point of why BJ left the Bombers offered him something that he believed that he thought the Saints could never match and that was the chance to win a premiership. Money was only ever a part of the equation. I regard to some of the other other issues it was interesting to hear Scott Watters talk about the recruiting from 2006 - 2010 and the club's lack of retention of players from that period compared with other clubs. He did not name Ross Lyons but we all know that while he was a great strategic coach he coached to win a premiership and when he walked out he left out club in a mess recruiting wise and Watters is paying the price for it.

[skeptic]

Make no mistake, the Saints wanted him to leave

Elaborate

[Kiedis]

What? Anthony Kiedis is a St Kilda supporter? I hope not.

Or It's possible this St Kilda tragic was an Anthony Kiedis supporter? Definitely back in '06 anyhow..

But short & truthful answer - yes, yes he is.

[bigcarl]

We need to give Lee a series of games in the seniors to see what eventuates, and I expect he will be a useful player.

I heard Lee was one of the best of a bad lot for the Zebras last week, so it's puzzling that we're going with Maister this week.

Maister's useful, but is never going to be much more than that. Lee's got the potential to be a better player

[cwrcyn]

Lee has just come off an ankle injury, and from what Watters said a couple of weeks ago, he believes Lee has some work to do before being reconsidered for senior selection. I tend to agree with him

[saintsRrising]

BJ is a good player, but has hardly been dominating at the Dons. Has also been playing mainly the same role as he did with us, and not the midfield role that some stated as a reason why he left.

BJ would not have made much difference this year to us, and he was not worth matching at the salary he wanted.

We are in transition, and that is the cold hard reality of the situation. BJ staying may have eased some of the losses, but at the end of the day would not have made much difference and moreso with the likes of Fisher, Lenny and Schneider either carrying injuries or being out injured.

Whether Pelchen is making the right calls, or not, on his picks and trades we will not know for a couple of years.