Watters and Watson. History repeating?

[defacto]

look at how occupies the bottom 8 from the end of the ladder onwards. no surprise that its occupied by the poorer clubs, only exceptions are port and sydney

[Bernard Shakey]

The only similarity between Watters and Watson is that they both have inherrited an ageing an inexperienced list of players.

I rate Scott far more than Timid as a coach. Scott had prior experience as an assistant coach and a senior WAFL coach (premiership winning teams, no less). If Scott took over around the same as GT or RL, I think he would have been just as affective.

Timid's coaching resume, before joining St Kilda, consisted of coaching his then teenage son's (Jobe) basketball team. If Timid had a strong list of players he wouldn't have been able to coach them out of a paper bag.

Spot on Sainternist, there is no comparison whatsoever between the two.

I do have great respect for Tim Watson, because when he quit, he said he couldn't do the job and would never try to again, and he never has.

[southernsaint]

People just need to chill out. Alot of posters seem to be in shock as to where we really are at as a club and want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well hello wake up. The club is two years in front of you. Why do you think they got pelchan? Why do you think they changed the recruiting and list management areas? And why do you think they put the extra resourses into the players accademy. We have done very well in the last two drafts, its just going to take a little time. So just get behind the club and enjoy the kids develope. it will be even a better ride than the last one.

[White Winmar]

Well, is anyone starting to see the parallels now?

[Old Mate]

Well, is anyone starting to see the parallels now?

It's difficult to tell if the list is just that bad or if it's Watters. Perhaps we hired Watters because he was the worst candidate of the bunch and we are after low draft picks

[plugger66]

Well, is anyone starting to see the parallels now?

Did Watson lose most the senior players?

[Con Gorozidis]

I don't think Jock McHale and Leigh Matthews love child could do much better. Our list stinks.

Seems like sh*t coaching in the first quarter though.

[whiskers3614]

What are you hinting at Plugger?
How has Watters lost the senior players?

[saintspremiers]

Well, is anyone starting to see the parallels now?

It's difficult to tell if the list is just that bad or if it's Watters. Perhaps we hired Watters because he was the worst candidate of the bunch and we are after low draft picks

Lol. But does make sense.

[PADDLEPOP1001]

Saad no kicks,Sippos 2 kicks ,Mcevoy and Hickey both terrible,Fisher Kickless to half time .Not much the coach can do if the players won"t at least have a go.Least a few of the kids turned up.

[8856brother]

We are better than what we showed today. I am getting a bit worried. The coach doesn't seem to be getting the best out of our players. My pet slug could do a better job than Fisher ATM. It's going to be LONG and PAINFUL.

[andrewg]

Is anyone else out there getting a sense of déjà vu about the current situation? I have briefly mentioned this before, but I think it warrants closer inspection. The parallels are significant. Stan Alves coached us into a Grand Final in 1997. Despite following up with a finals appearance the following year, Stan was sacked.

Enter Tim Watson, a legend of the game and considered to have one of the best football brains in the business. He inherits what is still a decent and relatively experienced list, that is still considered a serious contender. The first half of his first season goes according to plan. The saints are 7 & 3 and cruising. What follows is the infamous "Hawthorn fade out" game, where we blew a 63 point ead. The side never recovered from this, but still finished the year a respectable 10 & 12. The list still featured the Wakelins, Hudghton, Loewe, Burke, Harvey, Peckett, Everitt, Hayes, Jones and Hall, amongst others.

What follows is an unexpected disaster. Our worst season since 1985, featuring a meagre two wins. The coach walks a year early, and Blight is hired. No one has answers, but it delivers us the first two picks in the draft, including you know who at number one.
A couple of canny trades, and the upswing in the cycle begins. Despite having the list from heaven and making 5 prelims and paying in 3 GFs, we still come up empty.

Despite making the finals in the year following the 2010 GF, Ross Lyon leaves the club. Depending on who you believe, he was treated poorly and was effectively sacked, or he is a greedy, duplicitous manipulator who engineered a better deal and left us with time still on his contract. Either way, we lose the second most successful coach in the club's history. The list still boasts the likes of Reiwoldt, Fisher, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Kosi, Schneider, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, McEvoy, Steven, Gwilt and Milne. An impressive core, most of whom have plenty of good football left in them. The new coach makes a reasonable fist of his first year, with a 12-10 record and ninth place. Some trading and drafting seems to top the list up and the future looks promising.

What follows is shaping up as another 2000. The team clearly lacks an ability to run out games, culminating in last night's disaster, in which we were out finished by a team that had lost its past 19 second halves by a total of 580 points, and which had won only once in that period. Watching the dogs outrun and out spread us last night was hard to bear. But the writing has been on the wall since pre season. Ironically, our performance "guru" i s the very same bloke who oversaw the dogs' disastrous run of fade outs last year. And before anyone mentions the youth of our list, how do you explain the power's efforts so far?

In the end, in typical saints fashion, we'll bend over and take the cyclical mediocrity, in the hope that it will bring draft riches that will allow us to contend again in 4-5 years time. Unfortunately, the nature of the game has changed significantly in tha past decade. Early draft picks are no longer enough to guarantee a rise up the ladder. Just look at the dogs and dees. At the other end, it is the clubs that put resources into development and acquire the best staff to do this, that prosper. Clubs such as Geelong, Swines, Filth and Hawks. Interestingly ourselves, Dees and dogs are the only Victorian based clubs that haven't saluted in the past 35 years. I doubt they will anytime soon.

I don't know if SW is the right man for the job. He may well be. Time will tell. I have faith that the pelican is very good at what he does. Again, time will tell. But for those who think we'll rise again, purely on the back of poor performance that delivers an advantageous draft position, think again. FA's won't come to unsuccessful clubs and the lack of funds is crippling. Then consider the difficulty in attracting sponsors and falling membership. We are about 7,000 down on where we were two years ago. Frightening.

I fear the modern game is developing into a multi-tiered, class system. The well resourced Victorians, the AFL backed non Victorians and the rest that make up the numbers for the TV rights. No prizes for guessing which category we're currently in. All suggestions as to how we can extricate ourselves from our current predicament, before we are forced to relocate, merge or become nomads for hire, are welcome. I'll be all ears.

Another s*** doomsday post

[andrewg]

Not sure it matters if he has lost the old players....they are worthless to his cause in the long term........and will not be there in two years time.

[plugger66]

What are you hinting at Plugger?
How has Watters lost the senior players?

I can honestly say i have no idea but it appears to me there is real problems. I hope i am wrong.

[White Winmar]

Is anyone else out there getting a sense of déjà vu about the current situation? I have briefly mentioned this before, but I think it warrants closer inspection. The parallels are significant. Stan Alves coached us into a Grand Final in 1997. Despite following up with a finals appearance the following year, Stan was sacked.

Enter Tim Watson, a legend of the game and considered to have one of the best football brains in the business. He inherits what is still a decent and relatively experienced list, that is still considered a serious contender. The first half of his first season goes according to plan. The saints are 7 & 3 and cruising. What follows is the infamous "Hawthorn fade out" game, where we blew a 63 point ead. The side never recovered from this, but still finished the year a respectable 10 & 12. The list still featured the Wakelins, Hudghton, Loewe, Burke, Harvey, Peckett, Everitt, Hayes, Jones and Hall, amongst others.

What follows is an unexpected disaster. Our worst season since 1985, featuring a meagre two wins. The coach walks a year early, and Blight is hired. No one has answers, but it delivers us the first two picks in the draft, including you know who at number one.
A couple of canny trades, and the upswing in the cycle begins. Despite having the list from heaven and making 5 prelims and paying in 3 GFs, we still come up empty.

Despite making the finals in the year following the 2010 GF, Ross Lyon leaves the club. Depending on who you believe, he was treated poorly and was effectively sacked, or he is a greedy, duplicitous manipulator who engineered a better deal and left us with time still on his contract. Either way, we lose the second most successful coach in the club's history. The list still boasts the likes of Reiwoldt, Fisher, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Kosi, Schneider, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, McEvoy, Steven, Gwilt and Milne. An impressive core, most of whom have plenty of good football left in them. The new coach makes a reasonable fist of his first year, with a 12-10 record and ninth place. Some trading and drafting seems to top the list up and the future looks promising.

What follows is shaping up as another 2000. The team clearly lacks an ability to run out games, culminating in last night's disaster, in which we were out finished by a team that had lost its past 19 second halves by a total of 580 points, and which had won only once in that period. Watching the dogs outrun and out spread us last night was hard to bear. But the writing has been on the wall since pre season. Ironically, our performance "guru" i s the very same bloke who oversaw the dogs' disastrous run of fade outs last year. And before anyone mentions the youth of our list, how do you explain the power's efforts so far?

In the end, in typical saints fashion, we'll bend over and take the cyclical mediocrity, in the hope that it will bring draft riches that will allow us to contend again in 4-5 years time. Unfortunately, the nature of the game has changed significantly in tha past decade. Early draft picks are no longer enough to guarantee a rise up the ladder. Just look at the dogs and dees. At the other end, it is the clubs that put resources into development and acquire the best staff to do this, that prosper. Clubs such as Geelong, Swines, Filth and Hawks. Interestingly ourselves, Dees and dogs are the only Victorian based clubs that haven't saluted in the past 35 years. I doubt they will anytime soon.

I don't know if SW is the right man for the job. He may well be. Time will tell. I have faith that the pelican is very good at what he does. Again, time will tell. But for those who think we'll rise again, purely on the back of poor performance that delivers an advantageous draft position, think again. FA's won't come to unsuccessful clubs and the lack of funds is crippling. Then consider the difficulty in attracting sponsors and falling membership. We are about 7,000 down on where we were two years ago. Frightening.

I fear the modern game is developing into a multi-tiered, class system. The well resourced Victorians, the AFL backed non Victorians and the rest that make up the numbers for the TV rights. No prizes for guessing which category we're currently in. All suggestions as to how we can extricate ourselves from our current predicament, before we are forced to relocate, merge or become nomads for hire, are welcome. I'll be all ears.

Another s*** doomsday post

Great, insightful post. Dripping with denial. Another s*** post, denying the obvious and contributing nothing to the argument

[kaos theory]

Well, is anyone starting to see the parallels now?

No, you are overreacting. Its too early to draw conclusions. We are going through significant change in personnel, there are young players all over the place, without the experience and conditioning.

Also, watson had no real coaching background, watters has had a successful stint in WA and as a assistance coach in a AFL premiership winning team. He can coach, just needs time, like the team to develop over this year...

It constantly surprises me how people think the coach is the root cause of all problems in today's game. We need to move on from that limited thinking. There are so many factors at play in today's game, complexities, support staff, conditioning, planning & money.

Do you think Sir Alex Ferguson, whouyld be hailed as one of the great managers/coaches if he was only picked up by Luton Town instead of the massive resources of Man U? He would have been a nobody by now...

[Devilhead]

What are you hinting at Plugger?
How has Watters lost the senior players?

I can honestly say i have no idea but it appears to me there is real problems. I hope i am wrong.

So you have no idea??

Finally you speak the truth

Seriously if you have no idea then stop spreading rumours snd shut the hell up

[The Redeemer]

The only similarity between Watters and Watson is that they both have inherrited an ageing an inexperienced list of players.

I rate Scott far more than Timid as a coach. Scott had prior experience as an assistant coach and a senior WAFL coach (premiership winning teams, no less). If Scott took over around the same as GT or RL, I think he would have been just as affective.

Timid's coaching resume, before joining St Kilda, consisted of coaching his then teenage son's (Jobe) basketball team. If Timid had a strong list of players he wouldn't have been able to coach them out of a paper bag.

Spot on Sainternist, there is no comparison whatsoever between the two.

I do have great respect for Tim Watson, because when he quit, he said he couldn't do the job and would never try to again, and he never has.

Agreed.

As a person, it is a huge thing to admit defeat and move on.

Good on him for doing so.

[Con Gorozidis]

We had one crap quarter.
North beat us last year and are clearly better than us atm.

Just not sure what people expect. People need to let go of 2009 and face the new normal.
We need to rebuild a new side from the ground up. There are no short cuts.

[plugger66]

What are you hinting at Plugger?
How has Watters lost the senior players?

I can honestly say i have no idea but it appears to me there is real problems. I hope i am wrong.

So you have no idea??

Finally you speak the truth

Seriously if you have no idea then stop spreading rumours snd shut the hell up

Go away you little little moronic lose. I will say what I think and that is what I think but I have the courage to say i have no proof at all. No wonder people laugh in your face.

[bergsone]

WHAT are these issues,its a simple question

[Devilhead]

I can honestly say i have no idea but it appears to me there is real problems. I hope i am wrong.

So you have no idea??

Finally you speak the truth

Seriously if you have no idea then stop spreading rumours snd shut the hell up

Go away you little little moronic lose. I will say what I think and that is what I think but I have the courage to say i have no proof at all. No wonder people laugh in your face.

Again too gutless to elaborate on your opinion which is looking like it has no substance

Wow for some who has so much to say you really have absolutely nothing to say at all and you call it courage

I wonder who is laughing at who's face - your credibility is fast approaching zero

[Devilhead]

WHAT are these issues,its a simple question

Cmon Plug - thats about 5 posters and counting asking you to elaborate on these issues you keep harking on about

[White Winmar]

I'm not blaming Watters entirely. There are clearly problems in a number of areas. I too, think it's just too easy to blame the coach for everything. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that circumstances seem to be repeating themselves. Yes, Tim lost the players, but that didn't happen overnight. It all seems to be heading into disturbingly familiar territory for the saints. I fear P66 might not be far from the mark, unfortunately.

I know SW coached in the WAFL, but that is an entire universe away from the pressure cooker of the AFL. Plenty can succeed at the lower level. Not many can at the highest level. I don't know if SW will make it, but his cliche riddled, predictable responses in the media don't fill me with hope. There doesn't seem to be much innovation in his words or actions. Sounds like somebody that I used to know (sorry Gotye).

[SainterK]

How does this translate into being smashed in the centre though?

As far as I can recall, it's happened since 2011 which was under Ross, and hasn't improved since.

Coincided with Gardi retiring and Tudor leaving IMO.