Are we fit enough?

[Teflon]

Plugger please explain to me how "mentally shot" Nick Riewoldt us again....Im fascinated

Who said he was? I cant explain something that i dont see to be true. Maybe you know more because i have no idea why you asked me that question.

I do know more - that goes without saying.

That said, do elaborate on "who is cooked" from the older guys as to past GF failures now meaning we cant compete consistently.

Genuinely interested in the theory.

WHO are they???

[plugger66]

Plugger please explain to me how "mentally shot" Nick Riewoldt us again....Im fascinated

Who said he was? I cant explain something that i dont see to be true. Maybe you know more because i have no idea why you asked me that question.

I do know more - that goes without saying.

That said, do elaborate on "who is cooked" from the older guys as to past GF failures now meaning we cant compete consistently.

Genuinely interested in the theory.

WHO are they???

I actually think most of the older guys are cooked mentally and as age gets to them physically. Dal had a great year after the 2 failed attempts but hasnt been very good for the last 2 years. Joey had a good year last year as a tagger and has been in and out this year. Fisher has struggled the last 2 years. Hayes has again been fantastic but maybe age mat be his problem as with Milne. Rooy was poor after the 2 loses but has been great for the last 2 years. BJ was poor after the 2 loses but has picked up at another side. A new lease of life. I have no doubt players are effected by those loses and who could blame them. 2 of the cruelest loses in the games history in 2 consecutive years.

[SainterK]

Dal, Milne, Fisher, Schneider...

[White Winmar]

I think the "mentally cooked" theory has merit, but it doesn't offer a complete explanation. The past has told us that many premierships have been won by teams that gained a physical edge. It goes back over one hundred years to the Carlton team that won three on the trot through 1906-08. It was the first team to be coached and use physical development strategies. Remember "Kennedy's Commandos", the WCE's remarkable physical "growth" in the early 90's, and Sydney's incredible run with injury in 2005 under Dave Misson, not to mention the physical beasts Geelong became in 2007?

I'd hate to think we've dropped behind the leaders in physical conditioning, but it stands to reason the poorer clubs will struggle to keep up. Even the recent Essendon drugs fiasco points to wealthy clubs trying anything to get an edge. Ourselves, the dogs, kangas and dees just can't compete financially and in terms of staff they can hire. Interesting to note where those four teams are on the ladder ATM. This year we've consistently faded out of games, something which didn't happen last year. At least Roo is playing like a man who still believes, but then again he's a freak when it comes to physical ability and endurance.

[sunsaint]

I think the "mentally cooked" theory has merit, but it doesn't offer a complete explanation. ...
I'd hate to think we've dropped behind the leaders in physical conditioning, but it stands to reason ....

agreed
and the GFs while still raw in our minds is really a long time ago in relation to personnel and paychecks at the club
We arent fit enough, and just as importantly we arent strong enough. Im not going to use the word soft and then point out players, but when watching games we get pushed off the contest very easily, go to ground far too often, and tackles are usually nothing more than a love hug on your opponent.
It has nothing to do with kids dropping off in the last 1/4, our spread of ages is actually not that remarkable, and is really just an excuse for results this year. It does have a lot to do with not converting turnovers into scores, doing all the hard work only to watch a poor disposal coming rebounding back over your head quicker than lightning. You naturally drop your head, and the hunger for the next contest drops away.
The carlton game a perfect example, they were three down, & had turnovers galore in the first half. They tidied up after half time & ran all over us, we started getting messy (with fatigue) and were only just lucky to get a way with it.

[White Winmar]

Spot on sun saint. Nothing destroys morale more than a pathetic turnover that results in an opposition goal. It's not just our fitness that is suspect, our skills under pressure have been poor. The two are inextricably linked.

[noob]

Didn't we get the fitness guy who left bulldogs end of last year? Bulldogs faded massively in the 2nd halfs in 2012.

[sunsaint]

Spot on sun saint. Nothing destroys morale more than a pathetic turnover that results in an opposition goal. It's not just our fitness that is suspect, our skills under pressure have been poor. The two are inextricably linked.

it compounds in the second half when fitness level drops away - we are under pressure more and then you get the lazy sloppy disposal creep in that werent there earlier

[Teflon]

Good discussion

I certainly don't discount the mental fatigue theory for older guys but what scares me is... If some them really go over the edge we will be massively exposed ... as late in games is showing.

We haven't been flogged yet aka Dogs et al.... I'm not sure we've hit the bottom of the curve yet.....

[sunsaint]

Didn't we get the fitness guy who left bulldogs end of last year? Bulldogs faded massively in the 2nd halfs in 2012.

the personnel debate always makes me smile a bit
surely the wisdom & technique of the much heralded Misson would hang round the club and players for a while after they leave
why would you suddenly go backwards when they walk out the door?
unless the new guy doesnt train the players, and the guys love sitting round playing xbox, then you might have an argument
Its the exact reason why a club goes overseas, to pick up new ideas and techniques and bring them back with you, it just doesnt stay in colorado.
Intensity and desire from players training is a whole other issue, and it might be where the problem lies

[supersaints]

Didn't we get the fitness guy who left bulldogs end of last year? Bulldogs faded massively in the 2nd halfs in 2012.

We did ...there were posts early in the season indicating a bit of a worry that we were recruiting the fitness guy from a side that had the worst fade- outs for a long time.
I was concerned then and still am.
Hope I'm wrong about him and it's not going to go the same way of the dogs

[WinnersOnly]

We are definitley not fit enough and have not ran out any of our games convincingly. Perhaps it is the game style as we seem to chasing fresh air a fair bit under Watters, but they should be fitter than they are!

The Saints new Fitness Coordinator came from the Western Bulldogs - well they were hardly a cutting edge team while he was there. Why is we continue to collect other clubs discards. Whilst on that it is time for WATTERS to have a complete clean out of Assistant Coaches at season end. They are all rejects from non sucessful clubs - WHY do we keep grabbing these blokes!

Dean LAIDLEY - most miserable individual on the AFL scene!
Adam KINGSLEY - was soft when he played and it is showing in his coaching.
Danny Sexton (Assistant Coach) - Has he even played the game?

Replacements -
Midfield Coach - Cameron LING
Forward Coach - Barry HALL
Defensive Coach - Max HUGHTON

[darylcowie]

I think our results will improve now that finals are out of the question and we start to fly underneath the radar between finals contenders (north, west coast, carlton, richmond, port and adelaide) and dud teams (melbourne, gws, bulldogs, gold coast, brisbane). The only game we failed to run out that resulted in an upset loss against us was the gold coast game so far.

We can still beat the bulldogs, west coast here, melbourne, richmond, carlton, port here, and brisbane there, but after that, the hawks, swans there and freo here look beyond us. Still I had us winning 9 games at the start of the season and I think we can still achieve this in 2013.

I also forgot gold coast here in round 22, which makes 10 wins! Nothing but blue skies from hereon in for this sainter.

[White Winmar]

Didn't we get the fitness guy who left bulldogs end of last year? Bulldogs faded massively in the 2nd halfs in 2012.

We did ...there were posts early in the season indicating a bit of a worry that we were recruiting the fitness guy from a side that had the worst fade- outs for a long time.
I was concerned then and still am.
Hope I'm wrong about him and it's not going to go the same way of the dogs

Well, the dogs have been outscored in second halves by 580 points in their past 19 games, of which our man was there for 11 of them. Getting regularly rolled that way says something about your fitness. They have continued it into this year. I hope his methods haven't had a lingering effect, otherwise we could be in trouble.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

and how much of an impact in thats stat do you think the fact the dogs had gutted almost half their teams experiance in two seasons has made ?

the dogs had and still do have a very inexperianced playing group , a lot of big jobs are given to kids with very little game time under their belts ... they perform well for half the game then in the second half the hurt starts to set in to the younger bodies the hits dont get softer from the oppersition the older stronger more experianced opponent doesnt slow down he stays at the same pace where as the younger less seasoned bodys naturally run out of puff ... this is what we are experiancing now at the Saints and it will only get worse the longer the season goes and the more hardened teams we come up against ...

im noticing on here we have people trying to find "Bogey men" to pin the blame for the teams down turn , some blame Scotty some blame Pelch , some target Laidley and the other assistants and now it seems its our fitness guys turn , the fact is we are in the rebound , we are not Geelong we dont have the luxury of being up while rebuilding we have to go about it in the more traditional way . we will get floggings they are comming we will have games that will have us supporters pulling out our hair but its all part of the rebuild process .. look at our last crop of stars .... Roo Lenny NDS Joey Goddard Ball Fisher all of these guys were part of some almighty floggings in their first couple of years they had some super experianced players to guide them in Harvey Loewe Burkey we only started to see the rise up the ladder once these guys got up to their 50 games/100games mark ...

give it time guys we it might seem we are heading in the wrong direction right now but in the big picture it is the right direction

[Teflon]

Are people looking for bogey men or just stating where they think we can improve?

IMO we all know we are rebuilding and expect some pain - but we also equally know, for example, this midfield is not as bad as it is performing. We also know that having only 3 mids in the centre in the last qtr when we are fading fast and desperately needing a clearance is dumb. The buck stops somewhere for those decisions

Wins/losses for me right now are irrelevant - Im after signs of improvement a sense of a structure or game plan and with some consistently poor performances from very good players and some odd selections (TDL still has me totally stuffed) I think we also have a right to ask the question.

Gone are the days if "trust blindly in Grant guys.... we're in good hands...."

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Are people looking for bogey men or just stating where they think we can improve? - the problem is we are in the natural decline so improvment isnt going to come fast and chopping coaches two years into a rebuild only put the rebuild back a further two years... it comes from frustration i get that the team are sliding and you need someone to blame but the truth is regardless of who we have in charge we are still going to be in the same situation lets just give the guys we have got a chance to do their job before we condem them
IMO we all know we are rebuilding and expect some pain - but we also equally know, for example, this midfield is not as bad as it is performing. We also know that having only 3 mids in the centre in the last qtr when we are fading fast and desperately needing a clearance is dumb. The buck stops somewhere for those decisions - that was one move that honestly your the only person i have seen mention it , it was obviously a mistake but i hate to break it to ya but in the rebuild mode sometimes mistakes are going to be made we learn and we grow from them ... its hardly a hangable crime
Wins/losses for me right now are irrelevant - Im after signs of improvement a sense of a structure or game plan and with some consistently poor performances from very good players and some odd selections (TDL still has me totally stuffed) I think we also have a right to ask the question. - so win/loss is irrelevant but you keep on harping on about one play that was a mistake ?!?!? you are after signs of improvement well i suggest you look at the guys who we have brought into the club guys like Wright Webster Newnes Saunders , look at how far guys like Armo Steven and McEvoy have come ... look at the development not the results - TDL has been discussed at length on her so no point in flogging this dead horse anymore that is done was it a mistake yeah looks like it was it the worst mistake in our history hell no
Gone are the days if "trust blindly in Grant guys.... we're in good hands...." - so you would rather return to the days of the tail wagging the dog at St Kilda ? revert to the good old sack em and try again days ? pass i would rather we took the Geelong approach and stick to the plan regardless of the distractors and have faith that the plans the club put forward will work ...

[Scollop]

and how much of an impact in thats stat do you think the fact the dogs had gutted almost half their teams experiance in two seasons has made ?

the dogs had and still do have a very inexperianced playing group , a lot of big jobs are given to kids with very little game time under their belts ... they perform well for half the game then in the second half the hurt starts to set in to the younger bodies the hits dont get softer from the oppersition the older stronger more experianced opponent doesnt slow down he stays at the same pace where as the younger less seasoned bodys naturally run out of puff ... this is what we are experiancing now at the Saints and it will only get worse the longer the season goes and the more hardened teams we come up against ...

im noticing on here we have people trying to find "Bogey men" to pin the blame for the teams down turn , some blame Scotty some blame Pelch , some target Laidley and the other assistants and now it seems its our fitness guys turn , the fact is we are in the rebound , we are not Geelong we dont have the luxury of being up while rebuilding we have to go about it in the more traditional way . we will get floggings they are comming we will have games that will have us supporters pulling out our hair but its all part of the rebuild process .. look at our last crop of stars .... Roo Lenny NDS Joey Goddard Ball Fisher all of these guys were part of some almighty floggings in their first couple of years they had some super experianced players to guide them in Harvey Loewe Burkey we only started to see the rise up the ladder once these guys got up to their 50 games/100games mark ...

give it time guys we it might seem we are heading in the wrong direction right now but in the big picture it is the right direction

Another quality post st_Trav. When a few of our youngsters have notched up some pre-seasons under their belt and all hit 50+ games we will be a different team. We need some luck with the pelican plucking a KPP or quality A graders in the draft and fast development of our talls in White, Lee and Siposs and perhaps Hickey as well and you never know...we could be contenders again