Saints, this is the future (news article)

[Saints94]

For all the knockers at least you can see Stkilda's strategy going forward including recruiting kids with " Character " mental toughness than some other clubs.

This at least gives them a chance to get it right.

+100.

[CURLY]

A question about this article in regard to Pelchens claims. If what he says is true why would he have offered two picks for Mitch Brown? Thats if thats true.

[jonesy]

Looks great written nicely on paper

The proof is in performance on the weekends. It's not going to happen over night,but I want to see good improvement in some of our younger talent that aren't showing much at the moment by the end of the season. otherwise,it's just another scrap heap article

[Old Mate]

A question about this article in regard to Pelchens claims. If what he says is true why would he have offered two picks for Mitch Brown? Thats if thats true.

That was a ridiculous trade suggestion and I hope it was nothing but a rumour. Breaking the 'rumour' down further I think it was we trade picks 24 and 25 to Geelong for pick 16 then on-trade pick 16 to WC for Brown.

[Old Mate]

Looks great written nicely on paper

The proof is in performance on the weekends. It's not going to happen over night,but I want to see good improvement in some of our younger talent that aren't showing much at the moment by the end of the season. otherwise,it's just another scrap heap article

Yup, indeed. Even know the model is not to completely bottom out we will still see some pain over the next few years however if all goes accordingly we remain somewhat competitive and shoot back up the ladder sooner rather than later.

[Saints94]

A question about this article in regard to Pelchens claims. If what he says is true why would he have offered two picks for Mitch Brown? Thats if thats true.

That was a ridiculous trade suggestion and I hope it was nothing but a rumour. Breaking the 'rumour' down further I think it was we trade picks 24 and 25 to Geelong for pick 16 then on-trade pick 16 to WC for Brown.

I think your on the money there old mate...

[st_Trav_ofWA]

never mind the Dee's ... imagine if we traded pick 13 (Tom Lynch) for two in the 30's .....

[Old Mate]

never mind the Dee's ... imagine if we traded pick 13 (Tom Lynch) for two in the 30's .....

We at least got Newnes for Lynch.

[Dr Spaceman]

never mind the Dee's ... imagine if we traded pick 13 (Tom Lynch) for two in the 30's .....

Or simply used pick 13 on someone else

[st_Trav_ofWA]

truth about trade week is its all speculation about what is actually offered ... im sure the clubs worked through many differant combo's and deals to get the job done many that would have been shot down by either party ... as a rule i dont take the trade week rumours of what was offerd up and waht was rejected too seriously

[Saints94]

never mind the Dee's ... imagine if we traded pick 13 (Tom Lynch) for two in the 30's .....

Or simply used pick 13 on someone else

Like Zaharakis, Shuey or Fyfe

[Old Mate]

never mind the Dee's ... imagine if we traded pick 13 (Tom Lynch) for two in the 30's .....

Or simply used pick 13 on someone else

Like Zaharakis, Shuey or Fyfe

Or Tom Lee (went pick 60)?

[CURLY]

truth about trade week is its all speculation about what is actually offered ... im sure the clubs worked through many differant combo's and deals to get the job done many that would have been shot down by either party ... as a rule i dont take the trade week rumours of what was offerd up and waht was rejected too seriously

Yes the Luke Ball trade springs to mind. Every time a Collingwood player kicked a goal or took a mark that year the commentaters would blab and StKilda could have had him for part of the ball trade. By the end of the year we where offered everyone but Swan and Pendlbry.

[stinger]

Really interesting article i thought id share. certainly gives me confidence for the future.

thanks for that mate...good read

...and for those interested

[Richter]

At some stage we'll need genuine stars - even Swans have them to build around

Interesting times.

Which begs the question, where did the Swans starts come from, given their paucity of low draft picks over the last 10 years and how does that compare with us?

(drafted unless otherwise mentioned)

Adam Goodes - #43 in 1997
Jude Bolton - #8 in 1998
Ryan O'Keefe - #56 in 1999

Jarrad McVeigh - #5 in 2002
Ted Richards - traded for #19, #50 in 2005
Shane Mumford - traded for #28 in 2007
Kieren Jack - NSW zone rookie in 2005
Josh Kennedy - traded with Ben McGlynn for #39, #46, #70 in 2009

Daniel Hannenbury - #30 in 2008
Gary Rohan - #6 in 2009
Lewis Jetta - #14 in 2009
Luke Parker - #40 in 2010

----------------

To summarise...

3 are 30+ yo veterans (could be equivalent in 2016/17 to Dal, Joey and Chips for us) - all drafted originally by the club.

5 are mid-age (24-29 yo) players - 2 drafted and 3 traded for (so to match the Swans we'd be looking for 4-5 stars out of of Gwilt, Gilbert, Milera, McEvoy, Armitage, Saad, Dunell, Steven, Stanley, Lee, Hickey, Roberton, Markworth, Ferguson, Siposs)

4 are younger players who were drafted 3-5 years ago (again we'd need 3 stars out of the 2011-14 drafts/trade/free agency: Newnes, Ross, Webster, Minchington, Wright, Saunders, Murdoch, White +)

----------------

IMO our list looks in a very similar position now to where Sydney were at in 2008/9. We've got te veteran stars, we've got a mixture of drafted and traded players in that mid-age range, and we've started to stock up on younger players picked up through the draft.

Further comparisons,

Sydney's ladder positions from 2005-2008 - 3, 4, 7, 6 then they went 12, 5, 7, 3
St Kilda's ladder positions from 2009-2012 - 1, 3, 7, 9

Based on this comparison I would predict that we need to have at least 2 more bottoming out years to enable us to pick up some better draft picks and allow the younger group to get some development, but by 2016 we can be cherry ripe for another tilt.

[bigred]

I don't reckon we will "bottom out" too heavily.

I think we will end up being on the fringe of the eight for a couple of years. Beating teams below us and not beating sides above.

The comparisons to Sydney are sound though. Foundations of a good TEAM without many standout individuals.

Time will tell. White looks to be a great prospect. Like Rhys, he will take time to get his body where it needs to be.

[gringo]

I still have my doubts re Pelchen, of course I want to be wrong though, and will be very happy to have my post bumped and reminded of it.

Doubts about what? Whether he's any good at recruiting? Because that's the only thing that he should be being judged on - the rest is purely speculation.

I don't think he can be blamed for that even -his role is more of the strategist with the list management and planning a rebuild with types. He is apparently a hard task master and very demanding- put Ross Lyon's nose out and Jeff Kennetts.

I saw why Kennedy wasn't at the Hawks last night- it seemed dumb to let him go but he caused a heap of really bad turn overs including spotting up a Geelong player 20 meters out from goal going backwards from there goal. The Hawks wanted accuracy and he seems to lack it. A bit like Shane Tuck, gets it heaps but wastes it.

I remember watching Alan Christensen when he was playing in the state squad and he looked a gun, seriously we got Winmar in that draft and he looked a spud in his highlights reel yet we got him before Christensen. Who ever was watching the WAFL and sending us info should be shot.

We seem to be doing a lot more research and not filling spots for the sake of it.

[defacto]

i cant see us doing any more trading on the first rounder. i think we'll use the first and 2nd rounders in the draft now

[OldGeorgeYoung]

I've been following SS weekly since around 2006 but haven't got involved in the argy bargy of posting.
I just wanted to say that I think everyone's contribution & response to this article are some of the most intelligent & logical football discussions that I've seen in the last couple of years! Well done everyone

IMHO, I'm starting to think more & more that a player's potential success is 50% draft pick & 50% club development skills (nature/ nurture). Same clubs get bagged for making poor dp selections whilst others (unfortunately Geelong, Collinwood, Swan?) seem to get 'lucky' with their selection. e,g If only Dees selects a 'Beams' type (but would he have failed under their system) & would Watts succed at Geelong.

I can only hope that the commitment that the Saints have shown towards their academy setup will move us up the 'elite development' ladder, however these programs can take 5+ years to bear fruit (plus overall off fieled club stability & quality of player leadership/ values/ age spread. But based on my tipping I'm probably wrong. Thanks.

[Old Mate]

i cant see us doing any more trading on the first rounder. i think we'll use the first and 2nd rounders in the draft now

I share your sentiment defacto. Over the past two drafts we have traded our picks including our first rounders, or at least downgraded them for players such as Milera, Saad, Hickey, Lee, Roberton and Dennis-Lane who all fit into that age demographic that should have been drafted around 06-10 and these are the years that we wasted picks and development opportunities. I believe with the before mentioned players we've somewhat rectified that disastrous trade and development period and now we will look for some quality young talent in he upcoming draft with our early picks.

[gringo]

I've been following SS weekly since around 2006 but haven't got involved in the argy bargy of posting.
I just wanted to say that I think everyone's contribution & response to this article are some of the most intelligent & logical football discussions that I've seen in the last couple of years! Well done everyone

IMHO, I'm starting to think more & more that a player's potential success is 50% draft pick & 50% club development skills (nature/ nurture). Same clubs get bagged for making poor dp selections whilst others (unfortunately Geelong, Collinwood, Swan?) seem to get 'lucky' with their selection. e,g If only Dees selects a 'Beams' type (but would he have failed under their system) & would Watts succed at Geelong.

I can only hope that the commitment that the Saints have shown towards their academy setup will move us up the 'elite development' ladder, however these programs can take 5+ years to bear fruit (plus overall off fieled club stability & quality of player leadership/ values/ age spread. But based on my tipping I'm probably wrong. Thanks.

Interestingly I have a mate who had a nephew at the Pies- now gone won't mention who. He says that since the loss of the Malthouse set up of development the Pies have fallen away. Their family was very disappointed that he was left out of position in his preferred junior role once Watters etc left. Apparently Watters was very big on development and backing players in who showed promise and created an environment where young players strived to make it.

it's been mentioned before that he was mister cuddles at the Pies but I bet the Dees wish they had grabbed him for the stage they are now at. Neeld seems more a fire and brimstone type. I think for where we are at he was a pretty inspired choice.

[saintbrat]

related article on proposed new Zealand recruiting
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6625461204

The Saints are building their recruiting network in New Zealand.

"We need to be looking at basketball, soccer and other sports," Pelchen said.

"You are looking for an athletic component but, as much as that, a character and psychological component because these boys, like Kurt and Shem, have got a real competitiveness."

"Then, from there, you work on the player specific skills to AFL football."

[saintbrat]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6625464110


IN New Zealand, the people spruiking Australian football never call it that.

They try to separate the country from the game. It's AFL.

Auskick is KiwiKick and almost all the 80 missionaries working under the AFL NZ banner are New Zealanders.

"We just avoid Australians because we don't need the gospel," AFL NZ chief executive Rob Vanstam said. "We need to grow it from New Zealand's point of view."

They're starting with youth - 95 per cent of the 30,000 registered participants are five to 12-year-olds.The game has found a home on free-to-air TV - a new channel is showing six games live a week - and the first AFL match for premiership points will be played in Wellington on Thursday, Anzac Day.

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[Greg T]

Fantastic concise article.Least we look like we're heading in the right direction.good luck to them