Selection for the 2013 season

[mad saint guy]

While it is very early in the year and we have been competitive in both our games, what is plainly obvious is that the team that rose to the top in 2004 is now sliding to the bottom. Maybe we'll just miss the finals again, maybe we'll finish around 12th (most likely) or maybe we'll crash and burn into the bottom four. What is certain is that we need to start building for the future, and this means a selection bias towards players who might still be around next time we are a top four contender.

I think a solid policy is that if an older player can consistently win his position, then he is safe from selection bias. There's no point in playing a good quality player in the reserves and it would breed poor club culture. But kids should get preference over older players who are struggling for form and consistency or who just don't have the ability anymore. This is how I think the players aged 26 and up should be considered:

High quality AFL players and should always play when available

Hayes
Fisher
Riewoldt
Montagna
Dal Santo
Dempster


Players who must maintain solid form to stay in the side (ie: constantly under the pump and treated somewhat harshly)

Schneider
Milne
Maister
Ray
Gwilt
Gilbert

And then - players who should not be selected unless they hit outstanding VFL form or we have no other option for the position

Kosi
Blake
Jones


For this week we have 5 of the first category available and 4 of the second category. Milne would want to hit some form soon but he has enough credits to get a few weeks. We have plenty of options to play in the roles category 3 would play in so none of them should play.

Even though Newnes and Siposs haven't performed well so far, they stay in. Wright has shown plenty through the pre season and should get his debut.

Going forward (while Gwilt, Dempster, Hickey, Ray, Ferguson and Markworth are injured) in the short/medium future I think our team should be something like this

B: Simpkin, Fisher, Geary
HB: Roberton, Stanley, Newnes
C: Montagna, Hayes, Dal Santo
HF: Schneider, Riewoldt, Siposs
F: Milne, Maister, Saad

Foll: McEvoy, Armitage, Steven
Int from: Wright, Ross, Dunell, Gilbert, Milera, Murdoch, Curren, Ledger, Saunders, Lee, Webster

If we continue to play only a few kids each week while many mediocre older players are in the side then the rebuild will be much slower than it needs to be.

[Teflon]

good post agree.

time is now.

Weve had the AFL GF drug for 2 great years now........making up numbers doesn't cut it........lets get back there sooner than later so that means kids in now.

[rexy]

Big the best side on form/ability/commitment/fitness and opposition strength, every week IMO! Don't pick due to age be it young or old!
You can't pick a side for next year, it's only this year!

[mad saint guy]

Big the best side on form/ability/commitment/fitness and opposition strength, every week IMO! Don't pick due to age be it young or old!
You can't pick a side for next year, it's only this year!

So you think it's better to finish 9th-10th with our most senior players than 12th-13th while getting a heap of games into the kids?

I think you can absolutely pick a side for the future. There is obviously a line that you don't cross (which teams like Melbourne did - delisting/retiring their best players) but we shouldn't be playing ordinary players 26+ who won't get us into the finals this year and have no scope for improvement.

[rexy]

Big the best side on form/ability/commitment/fitness and opposition strength, every week IMO! Don't pick due to age be it young or old!
You can't pick a side for next year, it's only this year!

So you think it's better to finish 9th-10th with our most senior players than 12th-13th while getting a heap of games into the kids?

I think you can absolutely pick a side for the future. There is obviously a line that you don't cross (which teams like Melbourne did - delisting/retiring their best players) but we shouldn't be playing ordinary players 26+ who won't get us into the finals this year and have no scope for improvement.

Think it's better that kids in 2s are pushing themselves to legitimately get past senior blokes and into a side sitting 9th than gifted games into a side where we accept sitting 13th!

Yes

Just my way of looking at it!

[Griggsy]

Big the best side on form/ability/commitment/fitness and opposition strength, every week IMO! Don't pick due to age be it young or old!
You can't pick a side for next year, it's only this year!

So you think it's better to finish 9th-10th with our most senior players than 12th-13th while getting a heap of games into the kids?

I think you can absolutely pick a side for the future. There is obviously a line that you don't cross (which teams like Melbourne did - delisting/retiring their best players) but we shouldn't be playing ordinary players 26+ who won't get us into the finals this year and have no scope for improvement.

Think it's better that kids in 2s are pushing themselves to legitimately get past senior blokes and into a side sitting 9th than gifted games into a side where we accept sitting 13th!

Yes

Just my way of looking at it!

No doubt either way is a tough call.
Making them earn it is a great policy, and Lyon enforced it rigidly and it did pay off, just falling short; though the selection process is far from the reason for that.

However the future does have to play at some point and trialing them can't hurt when you arn't a finals contender. My nightmare is we hang on to middle of the table for too long then decline to the bottom. Seems like a waste time and talent.

[gringo]

We are a little early in the season for chucking in the towel. I would rather play fewer kids in a more competitive environment.

[rexy]

Example, if Simpkin can't legitimately justify his position in front of a 30 something Blake, or a ledger/Ross can't go passed say a poorly skilled Jones on merit then thy will never be the right guys!

Still relies on coach selecting them when they are deserved, not saying be conservative just saying must be earnt!

I want Sippos to stay this week, massively important player to us in the medium term and we have GWS. Not dropping him sends a very poor message to him and others though IMO!

[bigcarl]

Swans and others have shown you can rebuild while remaining competitive without bottoming out. Pick the best side based on merit, and let's neither 1) give games to people who haven't earned them or 2) drop older players whose form is still good. Always try to win every game.

[plugger66]

CJ cant be dropped no matter what stage our club is at. You must reward players when they play well and CJ did last week. On the other hand Blake didnt and shouldnt play again unless we are really struggling in that position or his form is just to good to overlook.

And never gift games to any player no matter how young they are. Must show a bit in the seconds.

[borderbarry]

It is not the youngsters that are being gifted games so far this year, it is the likes of Blake. He is keeping a youngster out.

[spert]

CJ cant be dropped no matter what stage our club is at. You must reward players when they play well and CJ did last week. On the other hand Blake didnt and shouldnt play again unless we are really struggling in that position or his form is just to good to overlook.

And never gift games to any player no matter how young they are. Must show a bit in the seconds.

Jones has done a pretty good job so far, and a few others need to play with his intensity.

[dragit]

Agree MSG, good lists… funnily enough it basically breaks down into AA veterans - always play, our B - down veterans need to be playing well to stay in the side… (though you have milne in the second list). Gwilt & Gilbert are pretty safe unless they absolutely stink, because we just don't have any young players strong enough to put pressure on them IMO.

Also agree plugger, it wouldn't be right to drop CJ this week after a mighty effort last week. I think he is pretty fortunate that Montagna was out suspended round 1, but saying that, he has thrown everything he has at staying in the side. I do think though CJ is still at the very fringe of selection, not through lack of effort just skills to play the game effectively (kicking).

I wonder how much a young player learns by playing alongside AA veterans. Hayes may only have 20 games left… and you can't play many kids in the midfield each week, but say Ross, Wright, Ledger, Curren… how much would they benefit from 5 games each alongside Lenny? How much would Lee & White learn about hard running, playing alongside Roo for a few games?

What do we gain from Milne kicking a bag this week? I know he has credits in the bank and this time last year people were calling for him to retire, I'm sure he will come good again, but we plainly have too many specialist small forwards in the side at present. Milne & Saad have been around the same mark this year so do we drop the promising 23 YO or the champion 33YO?

[matrix]

sooooo
according to the OP
jonesy should not be picked in the 22
unless he hits 'outstanding form in the vfl'


i like the op, i read his posts but, dude...seriously wtf??

all because he apparently cant kick?????
because im telling you he does EVERYTHING else right
id drop milne before jones on the last two games form

[SainterK]

It should be about which veterans can bring youngters in the game...

A handball off to boost confidence, a willingness to block to help them to excel, making space in the forward line, giving them a rub on the head for an effort that may not be an actual stat, that kind of thing.

Clint leads by example by his work ethic, but doesn't really play a role that lends itself to on field instruction?

Glad I don't have to make the decisions, one very AWKWARD season coming up for Scott.

[cwrcyn]

Give games to those who deserve it. Important to maintain the competition for spots, otherwise you're compromising the team's ability to win games. Players still need the incentive of winning. It's not simply a matter of replacing the old with the new. Watters will sometimes need to replace the new with the new in order to serve the team well (eg Siposs for Wright, Newnes for Murdoch). As the older players drop off, then incoming players will have had a sufficient amount of game time to be assessed and to be ready for regular selection and performance.

There's no point in selecting players who are not up to the task, and having as many experienced, hard bodies around as possible is very important. All new guys need to come into team that will teach and support them the most, rather than being thrown to the wolves.

[dragit]

sooooo
according to the OP
jonesy should not be picked in the 22
unless he hits 'outstanding form in the vfl'


i like the op, i read his posts but, dude...seriously wtf??

all because he apparently cant kick?????
because im telling you he does EVERYTHING else right
id drop milne before jones on the last two games form

Think he is saying in general for this year… not this week, obviously CJ has taken his chance with both hands at present, but with a full list to choose from, someone needs to make way if we are to gain experience in our under 25's… CJ is on the fringe, behind 5 other mids, 3 x AA's, Steven/Armo.

It is FOOTball we are playing, so not being able to kick, for a midfielder is pretty significant.

[matrix]

rightio
lets get rid of one of our major ball winners and stoppers

[Con Gorozidis]

Good post msg. I agree with you 100%

And cj. So what if hes just in our best 22. Absolutely nothing to gain by playing him even in the unlikely event he helps us win a game.
Lets develop kids and prepare for a new era. If we get a high draft pick more power to us.

[matrix]

good lord
anyone would think he is 33 y.o.

we';re two games into the season
he has performed well in both games

i would say there is a few under him to go first
one of them being a forward pocket who hasnt performed

he stays for mine
for this year at least

[dragit]

rightio
lets get rid of one of our major ball winners and stoppers

You having trouble reading?
I said he has earned his spot for now, but he is definitely on the fringe, hence being out of the side last year.

b.t.w the guy he 'stopped' was probably best on ground, again last week.

[Dis Believer]

If games are gifted to players on the basis of them being young, you end up with the Melbourne FC.....

You cannot simply tip all the young guys into the team at once and not expect it to harm their development.

I don't know how many of you remember back to the game against Sydney when Daniel Wulf kicked the ball into the goal post and we ended up in a draw, after the worst game of football ever? But the problem we had was chronic levels of injury to senior players. Our most experienced KP defender had about 10 games to his name, and we had a bunch of kids playing against men. We flooded massively to try and minimise the damage because we had no choice. We weren't overflowing with senior talent, but what we did have was in the medical rooms.

Kids need to earn acheivement through hard work, that "culture" is as important as helping them develop AFL capable bodies. It shows in a team like Geelong, when they are able to dig deep late in a game and find a way to win from behind. Kids that are gifted games don't develop the ability to overcome adversity, because it is not required of them.

[matrix]

rightio
lets get rid of one of our major ball winners and stoppers

You having trouble reading?
I said he has earned his spot for now, but he is definitely on the fringe, hence being out of the side last year.

b.t.w the guy he 'stopped' was probably best on ground, again last week.

who says i was replying to you?
i didnt quote you
you have trouble getting off that horse???

[Con Gorozidis]

Melbourne are a rank comparison.
All the top sides retire off their mediocre older players and play kids.
Remember tarkyn lockyer .
The eagles pies crows and power were all ruthless and unsentimental with guys they deemed not part of their next flag.
And sure you gift a kid games but if they don't perform send them back to the vfl. The pies are masters at that. What you don't do is gift them 50 games.

Gifting games is but one of a plethora if issues at Melbourne.

[Con Gorozidis]

Milne and Blake are the first on the chop imho.
Should be given dignity and respect but both shouldn't play anymore after a send off game.
Last year for Len dog as well.