A grade midfielder

[bergholt]

Yes don't really buy the 'getting back 2nd & 3rd Rnd picks' makes it ok. Sure it sweetened the deal quite a bit, esp if DP 24 & 43 turn out ok -
but IMO a downgrade of 12 picks in Rnd 1 is still a hefty price to pay.

Crap. We filled three spots on the list for pick 12: Lee, pick 24 (Wright) and pick 43 (Saunders). If we hadn't made the trade then we still would have needed to get three players onto the list, but it would have been pick 12, pick 90-odd and pick 100-odd.

Odds are that Lee, Wright and Saunders will turn out better as a package than whoever we would have taken with those three picks, considering two of the picks would have been a crap shoot.

[MCG-Unit]

Yes don't really buy the 'getting back 2nd & 3rd Rnd picks' makes it ok. Sure it sweetened the deal quite a bit, esp if DP 24 & 43 turn out ok -
but IMO a downgrade of 12 picks in Rnd 1 is still a hefty price to pay.

Crap. We filled three spots on the list for pick 12: Lee, pick 24 (Wright) and pick 43 (Saunders). If we hadn't made the trade then we still would have needed to get three players onto the list, but it would have been pick 12, pick 90-odd and pick 100-odd.

Odds are that Lee, Wright and Saunders will turn out better as a package than whoever we would have taken with those three picks, considering two of the picks would have been a crap shoot.

Why is it crap, It's my opinion, can't discuss without slamming? Saints DP prior to this trade were 12, 28, 40, 75 & 90. Why did they Have to get 3 players on the list before the drafts? Could they not have taken an 18 yo at DP12, then add 2 later, which may have even included Lee?

So no decent players are ever taken with late picks in the Nat, then PS, or Rookie Draft
They could have also left a vacant spot to upgrade an additional rookie. Many options, however if they really wanted Lee, so be it.
Next time chill out

[stinger]

Yes don't really buy the 'getting back 2nd & 3rd Rnd picks' makes it ok. Sure it sweetened the deal quite a bit, esp if DP 24 & 43 turn out ok -
but IMO a downgrade of 12 picks in Rnd 1 is still a hefty price to pay.

Crap.

Why is it crap, It's my opinion, can't discuss without slamming? Saints DP prior to this trade were 12, 28, 40, 75 & 90. Why did they Have to get 3 players on the list before the drafts? Could they not have taken an 18 yo at DP12, then add 2 later, which may have included Lee?

i wouldn't take much notice....

[MCG-Unit]

Edit: No need

[bergholt]

Why is it crap, It's my opinion, can't discuss without slamming? Saints DP prior to this trade were 12, 28, 40, 75 & 90. Why did they Have to get 3 players on the list before the drafts? Could they not have taken an 18 yo at DP12, then add 2 later, which may have included Lee?

OK, sorry if it came across aggressively, no excuse for that.

Nine players came onto the list this year. Three of them were direct trades (Hickey, Dennis-Lane, Roberton), one was a pre-listed player trade (Lee) and five were draft picks. If they hadn't made the Lee trade then we would have had six spots on the list, which would have corresponded to ND picks 12, 28, 40, 75, 90 and 103. They could then either have used 90 and 103 or taken two rookies. Instead, they presumably made the judgement that picks 90 and 103 were not worth much, so if they could get Lee, upgrade pick 90 by 66 picks and pick 103 by 60 picks, then that was a good deal. I'm not sure how you can argue that it wasn't, unless you think Kristian Jaksch is going to be the next Carey.

So no decent players are ever taken with late picks in the Nat, then PS, or Rookie Draft

Not many! You'd seriously prefer picks 90 and 103 to picks 24 and 43? For comparison, the four players taken after 90 in the last five years: Matt Maguire, Ryan Gamble, Dean Polo and Jackson Allen. Not a massive amount of quality there. Rookie draft has better success but it's a crap shoot - most teams get about one hit every two years.

They could have also left a vacant spot to upgrade an additional rookie.

There's a free spot now to upgrade a rookie and it hasn't been used, so I'm not sure why that would have helped.

[WinnersOnly]

Adam Treloar from GWS is the lad we need - get him Saints!

[MCG-Unit]

Fair enough Bergholt, you make some valid points - maybe I disagree partly.
Bottom line is, they must have really wanted Lee. At the time, downgrade in DP's or no, I thought it was still a hefty price to pay.
Hope he turns out to be a 150 game player

[BigMart]

Why?

Gardiner was a lot better footballer than Lovett he was an all Australian ruck men and we had Michael Rix

I would take a drug taker over a woman basher anyday! Drug addicts cause themselves some damage but unless they push it don't hurt others.

Difference between cousins, Gardiner and Lovett
Two were professional footballer and good blokes .... One was a lazy arsehole

[Richter]

it may be that we got higher picks in #24 & # 43 but pick # 12 is still in its own right a very high pick & Tom Lee will be assessed on this opportunity cost.

correct.

few will give a shyte about the also ran picks.

Yes don't really buy the 'getting back 2nd & 3rd Rnd picks' makes it ok. Sure it sweetened the deal quite a bit, esp if DP 24 & 43 turn out ok -
but IMO a downgrade of 12 picks in Rnd 1 is still a hefty price to pay.

Why not wait and see if Lee is still available in the ND at pick 40-60+ if not forget it? Take an 18 y o. Surely if someone pre-listed by GWS is not traded, he can enter the ND.

There was talk around trade time of Fremantle offering GWS their first dp (pick 17) for Tom Lee. He was also named in shifter Sheahan's draft at number 11! Hence I think it is fairly reasonable to suggest that he would not have been available at all in the draft beyond the first round, never mind pick 40+!

(http://www.supercoachhq.com/14/post/201 ... draft.html)

In terms of what we gave up, here is what history can tell us. Between 2000- 2005 there have been 60 players picked between 12-16 in the draft.
Here's a list of those who have played more than 100 games of AFL:

2000 Shaun Burgoyne, Ash McGrath, Daniel Harris, Simon Wiggins, Scott Thompson
2001 Brent Reilly, Nick Dal Santo, Rick Ladson
2002 Jay Schulz, Byron Schammer, Stephen Gilham
2003 Brent Stanton, Troy Chaplin
2004 Matthew Bate, Angus Monfires, Lynden Dunn
2005 Nathan Jones, Shannon Hurn, Grant Birchall, Travis Varcoe, Richard Douglas

That's 35% who have played 100 games.
2 are elite players (Scott Thompson and Dal) = 3.3%
8 have had seasons when they could arguably be considered A grade (Thompson, Dal, Burgoyne, Stanton, Jones, Birchall, Varcoe, Douglas) = 13.3%

Hence IMO we have made a shrewd decision in picking up Tom Lee in that we believed that he actually was a top 20 draft prospect anyway AND we got to pick up two further stabs.

The further reality is that in order to have a decent crack at picking up an A grade talent, your chances are MUCH higher with a top 10 pick, but beyond that it is very rare indeed.

[Dis Believer]

Fair enough Bergholt, you make some valid points - maybe I disagree partly.
Bottom line is, they must have really wanted Lee. At the time, downgrade in DP's or no, I thought it was still a hefty price to pay.
Hope he turns out to be a 150 game player

Word is that Carlton were set to take Lee at pick 11 in the draft. That is why we were straight in front of GWS first thing on the Monday morning to strike a deal.The fact is that Lee, besides having some talent was also a 21 year old, not an 18 year old, and will be ready to go MUCH quicker. That and the fact there is not a lot of quality KP forwards laying around after the expansion clubs have been allowed to pick the drafts bare for the past three years were probably significant factors in our thinking.

[Old Mate]

True Believer, Kevin Sheehan had Carlton taking Lee at 11 with his phantom draft. Are you getting confused with that? I know there was a strong rumour Freo offered pick 18 for Lee and we trumped them.

[MCG-Unit]

Yes don't really buy the 'getting back 2nd & 3rd Rnd picks' makes it ok. Sure it sweetened the deal quite a bit, esp if DP 24 & 43 turn out ok -
but IMO a downgrade of 12 picks in Rnd 1 is still a hefty price to pay.

Why not wait and see if Lee is still available in the ND at pick 40-60+ if not forget it? Take an 18 y o. Surely if someone pre-listed by GWS is not traded, he can enter the ND.

There was talk around trade time of Fremantle offering GWS their first dp (pick 17) for Tom Lee. He was also named in shifter Sheahan's draft at number 11! Hence I think it is fairly reasonable to suggest that he would not have been available at all in the draft beyond the first round, never mind pick 40+!

(http://www.supercoachhq.com/14/post/201 ... draft.html)

In terms of what we gave up, here is what history can tell us. Between 2000- 2005 there have been 60 players picked between 12-16 in the draft.
Here's a list of those who have played more than 100 games of AFL:

2000 Shaun Burgoyne, Ash McGrath, Daniel Harris, Simon Wiggins, Scott Thompson
2001 Brent Reilly, Nick Dal Santo, Rick Ladson
2002 Jay Schulz, Byron Schammer, Stephen Gilham
2003 Brent Stanton, Troy Chaplin
2004 Matthew Bate, Angus Monfires, Lynden Dunn
2005 Nathan Jones, Shannon Hurn, Grant Birchall, Travis Varcoe, Richard Douglas

That's 35% who have played 100 games.
2 are elite players (Scott Thompson and Dal) = 3.3%
8 have had seasons when they could arguably be considered A grade (Thompson, Dal, Burgoyne, Stanton, Jones, Birchall, Varcoe, Douglas) = 13.3%

Hence IMO we have made a shrewd decision in picking up Tom Lee in that we believed that he actually was a top 20 draft prospect anyway AND we got to pick up two further stabs.

The further reality is that in order to have a decent crack at picking up an A grade talent, your chances are MUCH higher with a top 10 pick, but beyond that it is very rare indeed.

That's quite some work you've done. Fair enough, hope you're right and Lee more than lives up to DP12.
I had not heard of the Docker offering DP17 for Lee. From memory there were mixed rankings of him in the better BF Phantom Drafts.
I had read of his drafting at DP60 by Adel then being delisted. Then his outstanding season in the WAFL last year.

Perhaps I had taken more interest in Hickey who the Saints traded DP13 for. There was talk that Coll had offered G Coast DP 20 for Hickey, so the Saints had to up the offer. Could be true as Coll traded for Lynch, drafted Hudson and Grundy to support Jolly.

[MCG-Unit]

Fair enough Bergholt, you make some valid points - maybe I disagree partly.
Bottom line is, they must have really wanted Lee. At the time, downgrade in DP's or no, I thought it was still a hefty price to pay.
Hope he turns out to be a 150 game player

Word is that Carlton were set to take Lee at pick 11 in the draft. That is why we were straight in front of GWS first thing on the Monday morning to strike a deal.The fact is that Lee, besides having some talent was also a 21 year old, not an 18 year old, and will be ready to go MUCH quicker. That and the fact there is not a lot of quality KP forwards laying around after the expansion clubs have been allowed to pick the drafts bare for the past three years were probably significant factors in our thinking.

I had not heard about the Carlton interest in Lee. As I've said elsewhere, from memory there were mixed rankings of him in some of the better BF Phantom Drafts. In that case, sounds like the Saints had to up the offer, as happened apparently with Hickey - Coll reportedly offering G Coast DP20. Hope Lee rewards the Saints faith with 150 games then.....

[Con Gorozidis]

Amongst the doom and gloom seb ross had his best game for Sandy.
Looking good.

[Dis Believer]

Amongst the doom and gloom seb ross had his best game for Sandy.
Looking good.

I had heard they were a little disappointed with his slow development over this preseason, so that's encouraging.

[bergholt]

Hope Lee rewards the Saints faith with 150 games then.....

Despite everything else, that's really all any of us can do at this point, isn't it? I reckon he's shown f***-all so far and he's got a long way to go, but maybe the next few months will see him take a couple of big steps and start to look like a player.

[saintly]

Hope Lee rewards the Saints faith with 150 games then.....

Despite everything else, that's really all any of us can do at this point, isn't it? I reckon he's shown f***-all so far and he's got a long way to go, but maybe the next few months will see him take a couple of big steps and start to look like a player.

Watters has always daid Lee was going to take time - a year or more

[SuperDuper]

Seb Ross seems to be a bit of a wet specialist... bring hin in if it rains! but at tis stage he seems a bit off AFL pace INO

[SuperDuper]

As for an A-grade midfielder, it will be interesting to see what happnes to Dayle Garlett thi syear... If he pulls his head in and knuckles down, he could be picked up next year.... or of course he could head fro the scrap heap! But he *may* have had the kick in the pants he needs and be an option

[groupie1]

Didnt realise that old. Need to look at the out of contract / free agent list.

Thats the problem getting someone from the FA list. They will all be at least that old.

I reckon one more tilt at it. With the Goddard salary gone; top up with Franklin and Thomas, hope like hell that the Saad, Milera, Stanley, Siposs bunch come good and give it one last crack in the Hayes/Roo era.
FA makes these windows almost irrelevant.
Also, we went from the 04-05 Harvey/Hamill/Gehrig era - lost prelims to the eventual premiers twice
to the 09-10 Roo/Hayes/Gardiner/Goddard era and almost pinched two flags.

One more spending spree ala 2001 and roll the dice.
Imagine our side without Gilbert, Jones, Blake, Ray and add Dale Thomas, Harry Taylor, another couple solid mids plus an improved Siposs, Stanley, Hickey, Saad, Milera and the ageing guns in their swansong year... we are right up there.

[noob]

It's good to think getting franklin will help but everyone was complaining about our ball use. So realistically we need to look at midfielders with decent kicking skills.

[groupie1]

yeah, i know... just using an example of a free agent.

[plugger66]

Didnt realise that old. Need to look at the out of contract / free agent list.

Thats the problem getting someone from the FA list. They will all be at least that old.

I reckon one more tilt at it. With the Goddard salary gone; top up with Franklin and Thomas, hope like hell that the Saad, Milera, Stanley, Siposs bunch come good and give it one last crack in the Hayes/Roo era.
FA makes these windows almost irrelevant.
Also, we went from the 04-05 Harvey/Hamill/Gehrig era - lost prelims to the eventual premiers twice
to the 09-10 Roo/Hayes/Gardiner/Goddard era and almost pinched two flags.

One more spending spree ala 2001 and roll the dice.
Imagine our side without Gilbert, Jones, Blake, Ray and add Dale Thomas, Harry Taylor, another couple solid mids plus an improved Siposs, Stanley, Hickey, Saad, Milera and the ageing guns in their swansong year... we are right up there.

I can honestly say IMO with those changes we would probably finsh 10th next year but just about certainly miss the finals.

[WinnersOnly]

Adam Treloar from GWS is the lad we need - get him Saints!

Treloar will cost a first round pick but is worth it - he is a rolls royce the way he moves.

The other boy I would have a crack at is Sam KERRIDGE from the Crows. He is a Bendingo boy whom we should have taken when we took Seb ROSS in the draft a couple of years ago. KERRIDGE is about to blossom he is a tall hard it mid who can kick goals and spread at speed unlike ROSS. Had 30 poss, 10 tackles adn 8 clearances for Sturt on weekend. The Crows believe he is there next Scott THOMPSON but he has a few other kids to compete with. KERRIDGE is consistently collecting high possession number in the SANFL.

The other kid we intended to take but missed out on in the same draft is Mitch GRIGGS who is also starting to play well in the SANFL.

[gringo]

Adam Treloar from GWS is the lad we need - get him Saints!

Treloar will cost a first round pick but is worth it - he is a rolls royce the way he moves.

The other boy I would have a crack at is Sam KERRIDGE from the Crows. He is a Bendingo boy whom we should have taken when we took Seb ROSS in the draft a couple of years ago. KERRIDGE is about to blossom he is a tall hard it mid who can kick goals and spread at speed unlike ROSS. Had 30 poss, 10 tackles adn 8 clearances for Sturt on weekend. The Crows believe he is there next Scott THOMPSON but he has a few other kids to compete with. KERRIDGE is consistently collecting high possession number in the SANFL.

The other kid we intended to take but missed out on in the same draft is Mitch GRIGGS who is also starting to play well in the SANFL.

Kerridge would be pretty hard to get out of the crows, they will have told him their plans for him and you would think unless he's really unhappy in SA he will be there for a long time.