The Moment I Saw

[skeptic]

Can some shrink this down for an avatar pic please

fair points JB, RE developing players was a reference to 2010 where he persisted with Mini ahead of Armo and Steven though he was sucking (at the time)

[matrix]

but carry on regardless

[saintspremiers]

Because Milne and Schneids had never missed easy shots before?

Meh.

I'm over that argument.

They missed shots prior to 2009, after 2009, and I'm sure they will in the future.

It's a part of their game, something Ross would of taken into account when HE selected them.

Why did you bother responding to a post from a halfwit??

[bergholt]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second.

He coached a team which drew a grand final. The result of a game that close could go either way depending on luck. It's moronic then to say that he "only knows how to come second".

[st.byron]

Ridiculous to say categorically that Lyon can only ever come second. Was a bee's penis away from two flags. Agree that we blew the 2009 GF in front of goal in the second quarter. Milne, McQ and Schneider's misses in retrospect were the difference. Would have been a very different game with a four goal half time lead.
Ball shouldn't have warmed the bench so much - that was Lyon's stuff-up, but to say he can't coach and can only come second is nonsense.

[saintspremiers]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second.

He coached a team which drew a grand final. The result of a game that close could go either way depending on luck. It's moronic then to say that he "only knows how to come second".

Has he coached a premiership team?

[kosifantutti]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second.

He coached a team which drew a grand final. The result of a game that close could go either way depending on luck. It's moronic then to say that he "only knows how to come second".

Has he coached a premiership team?

Had Longmire coached one before 2012?

Had Blight coached one before '97?

Had Jeans coached one before '66?

Pretty poor argument to say he's never one won so he never will.

[Cairnsman]

Done to death...what a deadset understatement of massive proportions.

What post are you referring to

The OP states he knows it's been done to death.

[plugger66]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second.

He coached a team which drew a grand final. The result of a game that close could go either way depending on luck. It's moronic then to say that he "only knows how to come second".

Has he coached a premiership team?

What a stupid thread. Nearly as silly as your comment SP. Why would you even ask the question and more to the point, what is the point. All I will say is people in the media rate RL as the top 2 or 3 coaches in the AFL. They are the people with certainly less bias than people on here. On here we have the people who say RL cant do any wrong and the others who as soon as someone leaves our club they are no good. Some of the stuff written about BJ is a perfect example of that.

RL was a very good coach and didnt coach for second spot. He made mistakes and because we lost both GF's we point his out more. Im sure MM and MT also made mistakes in the GF.

Anyway he is gone 2 years ago so lets start a thread on him now. Surely we should have started one on Tony Lockett and say he only plays or is capable of second. Matter of fact every Saints player or coach that wasnt involved in 1966 is only capable of second or worse in our clubs history. Lenny Hayes, Robert Harvey, Nathan Burke and the list goes on. There are 1531 players and god knows how many coaches who not able to win the big one at our club.

[3rd generation saint]

Yes we missed goals in 09, but remember, that changes the sequence of events, because the ball goes back to the middle and is not kicked out. Who is to say that at half time we may have been 10.4, but because of the 3 extra centre bounces Geelong we're 10.1. because they managed goals from those bounces.
It is all hypothetical and there is no answer because it never happened that way.
The 09 Gramd Final was lost due to a great spoil by Dawson followed by one of the biggest moments of luck when Scarlett was able to toepoke the ball back to Ablett, who in turn found Chapman and sadly the rest is history.
If Scarlett had of missed and we got the ball, it was a foot race to our goal, but that never happened either.
Lyon 09-10 was a very, very good coach who had us playing, especially in 09 a brand of tough, defensive, pressure but exciting brand of football, because it caused turnovers, which in turn caused goals. we we're 3rd or 4th in offence in 09, and if we had played anyone but frigging Geelong in that Grand Final, we would have won easily.
But something went wrong, and my speculation is it started when Roo went down. RL compensated, which is why we won god awful games like that 1st one against the WB at etihad where we can from no where to snatch victory.
But in 2011, RL seemed to forget Roo was back from injury, and we played this ultra defensive crap, that even though we won, it was just painful to watch and not enjoyable.
Plus we kept seeing the same old tried and not really succeeded players over and over, we saw recycled players, which we soon became aware as to why they we're let go from their original clubs and we saw some talented youngsters, who we're kept as Sandringham no matter how good they played.
At that point, I was happy to see RL go, because his gameplan that worked so well in 09, had become outdated and he refused to adapt ( in my opinion).
I do feel that SW is better for the club, because he has better ideas to develop young recruits into very good players
On the other hand, did not wamt BJ to leave as I felt BJ started to find his mojo again towards the end of last year and would still be a valuable asset to the club, plus I don't think BJ wanted to leave, he just wanted an extra year on the contract, and if he got that, probably would have stayed on less money that the Dopers offered him.
Mind you, a few weeks ago that 3 year deal was probably looking a lot better to him and if worse case scenario plays out at allegedly dopeland, he will be kicking himself he didn't take it.

[BigMart]

Overachieved with a list that included about 8-10 all Australians?

And a fist full of fist round draft picks most were jealous of, and why we were hated so much...

It can't be proven that M.Blight, GT or who ever couldn't have taken that list the distance

Midfield
Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna were stars
Jones, Ball had important jobs

Rucks
Gardner, King.... Experienced

HB's
Gram, Fisher, Goddard, Gilbert also at their best

Deep Backs
Baker, Blake, Dawson were honest stoppers

Forwards
Reiwoldt, Milne.... All time greats

Kosi, Schnieder, Mini all handy

Really it was a top line side

Not sure what Eddy was doing instead of Steven or Armitage

[plugger66]

Overachieved with a list that included about 8-10 all Australians?

And a fist full of fist round draft picks most were jealous of, and why we were hated so much...

It can't be proven that M.Blight, GT or who ever couldn't have taken that list the distance

Midfield
Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna were stars
Jones, Ball had important jobs

Rucks
Gardner, King.... Experienced

HB's
Gram, Fisher, Goddard, Gilbert also at their best

Deep Backs
Baker, Blake, Dawson were honest stoppers

Forwards
Reiwoldt, Milne.... All time greats

Kosi, Schnieder, Mini all handy

Really it was a top line side

Not sure what Eddy was doing instead of Steven or Armitage

Steven had bad groins both years. Armo was given 12 or so games in 2008 so he was given chances then. Obviously RL thought he lacked something for the game plan we played. And I reckon the sides we played had some pretty handy players as well. Both years the sides we played had more AA in that year than us. Suggests they had good players as well and both sides also probably had better depth.

[BigMart]

For someone with bad groins, gee I watched him play some good games in the VFL?

RL was incorrect about Armitage in 2009/10 if he believe he lacked something... Like all players he was not perfect, but on ability he was ahead of 3 players in both sides.... Geary was too for that matter.. Although he missed through injury once.

The fact both are still there and now in the leadership group..... Clarke, Eddy, McQualter are not?

On pure footballing ability the other lacked more.

Armitage has proved since, he is a better footballer than Ross thought?! Only thing he (and Ball) lacked was the coaches confidence.... He stuffed up with them and it cost him dearly....

Both players ferocity at the coal face is perfectly suited to finals footy..... And they weren't utilised.

[plugger66]

For someone with bad groins, gee I watched him play some good games in the VFL?

RL was incorrect about Armitage in 2009/10 if he believe he lacked something... Like all players he was not perfect, but on ability he was ahead of 3 players in both sides.... Geary was too for that matter.. Although he missed through injury once.

The fact both are still there and now in the leadership group..... Clarke, Eddy, McQualter are not?

On pure footballing ability the other lacked more.

Armitage has proved since, he is a better footballer than Ross thought?! Only thing he (and Ball) lacked was the coaches confidence.... He stuffed up with them and it cost him dearly....

Both players ferocity at the coal face is perfectly suited to finals footy..... And they weren't utilised.

Steven had bad groins. it is that simple. Is the VFL played at the same pace as the AFL? I dont think so. And because players arent there and those 2 are that makes them better options 3 and 4 years ago. Explain that logic? And Im glad you know more about Armo and the other guys than RL. What are your coaching credentials again? Armo was given something like 12 games in 2008 so RL obviously thought he could play a bit. It is only logical that RL thought others were better options the following year. Who knows why? Certainly not me or you unless of course you think RL was playing for second like this silly thread suggests. Or should I say only capable of coaching for second.

[matrix]

[skeptic]

Steven could have played

glad we went with Mini though and dropped Jack and Armo after 2 or so bad games

those 15 gifted games for mini in 2010 really paid off though.

I really enjoyed that 1 1/4 in late 2010 where he made a few tackles

[plugger66]

Steven could have played

glad we went with Mini though and dropped Jack and Armo after 2 or so bad games

those 15 gifted games for mini in 2010 really paid off though.

I really enjoyed that 1 1/4 in late 2010 where he made a few tackles

How do you know could have played? Did he tell you. He could not have played all the finals because of his groins and i doubt you would play him just in the GF. If footy was such a simple game morons like us would be coaching. There is structures and other things we wouldnt know a thing about. Mini was obviously more likely to follow the structure than Armo. I dont even count jack because of injury.

[Old Mate]

[BigMart]

So Ross was Right all the time was he?? Are you that silly??

And
Why was Jack playing with bad groins again?? Was the club being negligent? Your either fit to play or not, did we do a Luke Ball to him, maybe it's the club that wrecked his kicking??

Judging by some of your comment lately, I'm sure you volunteered to massage them at home for him??


I am in a very easy position to judge having hindsight to lean on.... Although, i think I may have argued this in 2009, anyways....At the time Ross went with who he thought and he could argue why... But clearly the selection of Rob Eddy was an error in all grand finals.... He was there to do a job, which did not work... Because 1) he was not good enough to make his opponent accountable, and 2) the opponent and opposition coach knew that...

Not Robs fault, terrific attitude, hard worker and would have given his all... But was ranked in the bottom 3 on the ground in all three games

You could argue at the time, Raph.... was more experienced than David and plays elsewhere ...., But Gwilt was playing VFL in 2009 and Mini had a great 09 deserved his spot

Dempster as a HFF, Mini in 2010??

Come on.... They were clear errors... All clubs make them, all coaches have

It's just the great coaches make less bad calls than good.....

Ross was a great coach... But he made a couple of obvious costly errors....

His use of Ball in 09 was embarrassing,,,, hindsight has also shown this

[stinger]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second. He will never coach the Fremantle Dockers to a premiership IMO in the same way he was never going to deliver with the Saints.

.

you may be on to something....but you got that bit wrong...the guy is an out and out prick...imhfo...

[plugger66]

So Ross was Right all the time was he?? Are you that silly??

And
Why was Jack playing with bad groins again?? Was the club being negligent? Your either fit to play or not, did we do a Luke Ball to him, maybe it's the club that wrecked his kicking??

Judging by some of your comment lately, I'm sure you volunteered to massage them at home for him??


I am in a very easy position to judge having hindsight to lean on.... Although, i think I may have argued this in 2009, anyways....At the time Ross went with who he thought and he could argue why... But clearly the selection of Rob Eddy was an error in all grand finals.... He was there to do a job, which did not work... Because 1) he was not good enough to make his opponent accountable, and 2) the opponent and opposition coach knew that...

Not Robs fault, terrific attitude, hard worker and would have given his all... But was ranked in the bottom 3 on the ground in all three games

You could argue at the time, Raph.... was more experienced than David and plays elsewhere ...., But Gwilt was playing VFL in 2009 and Mini had a great 09 deserved his spot

Dempster as a HFF, Mini in 2010??

Come on.... They were clear errors... All clubs make them, all coaches have

It's just the great coaches make less bad calls than good.....

Ross was a great coach... But he made a couple of obvious costly errors....

His use of Ball in 09 was embarrassing,,,, hindsight has also shown this

Who said RL was right all the time? How do you come with this stuff and then we have a sensible conversation and you get personal again. i said RL would know more than you or me about structures and why certain players are played. Are you saying that is incorrect? And I would imagine jack was playing with bad groins because playing wouldnt make them worse. That is a logical conclusion again unless you think our doctors are no good. Doesnt mean he was fit enough to play in the finals in the AFL. He wasnt.

I wish people would realise that no one has ever said RL didnt make errors but I suggest MM and MT also made them in the GF. For a start MM somehow couldnt manage to hold onto a 4 goal lead at half time of the first GF in 2010.

[joffaboy]

Big Mart, instead of getting into your usual pissing contest with Plugger66, can you address the OP and the statement that Lyon was and is incapable of winning a premiership and only ever coached for 2nd.

Do you believe he only coached for 2nd?

Seems to me your argument for a long time was and is that, in your eyes, Lyons greatest fault was that he was going all out for that premiership and neglected the future.

That would indicate to me that you dont agree with the OP and that he was never coaching for second as the OP states.

Personally I am very glad Lyon left. Watters and his crew seem to be looking forward and undoing some of the problems that Lyon left as his legacy.

[stinger]

Lyon lovers will accept no criticism of "master coach" writing it off as revisionism.
fact is some of us were expressing concerns right in the middle of that supposed golden era.
EG the Hawthorn game late in 2009, I wonder if we hadn't have won would it have been subject to tanking enquiries?

you would have to have some concerns during the replayed grannie too...or you know sfa about the game......i could have cried for roo alone inside the 50 metre zone with three filth players on him and with schneider and milne sitting on the bench...i thought...wtf...lyon lost me that day for good.....there was no way we were going to win with that game plan....

[dragit]

These cat pictures are way more interesting than the original topic.

[joffaboy]

I wish people would realise that no one has ever said RL didnt make errors but I suggest MM and MT also made them in the GF. For a start MM somehow couldnt manage to hold onto a 4 goal lead at half time of the first GF in 2010.

Problem is P66 people like to take the argument off tangent.

Lyon had plent of faults. His gameplan was as boring as bats.hit, but his results were good. He was lax on "developing" players because, this may have slipped some peoples minds, we had a team that was either No.1 or No.2 in the League in 2009 and 2010 and we were only one of two teams of each of those years who could win the flag. I doubt that was the time to experiment and "blood" players.

So my critisism of Lyon is thus. I believe he is a very good coach, but I percieve him as a parasite. Both at the Saints and now Freo he has taken a team developed by the hard work of someone else and wrung out every drop of potential in the aim of winning a flag.

Now he and his management team can be critisised for his poor recruiting, his pig headedness in losing Ball (compare that to the three players we got for Goddard), and other faults that now Watters and his new management team have to fix.

But to blithely state he couldn't coach and was only ever coaching for second place is pure and utter BS. As you state people in the football world, who know a hell of a lot more than nobodies on an internet forum rate him as one of the best coaches in the AFL.

But hey what would they know? Some "expert" on the internet has stated categorically that Lyon couldn't coach, so it must be a fact