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plugger66 wrote:Also Im unsure you can just tell a guy like Stanley with about 2 games experience in the backline that you will play FB when we play against a side who has a tall forward. He isnt going to magically be able to play on them. He isnt that good and not many others are either.
I think you may well be right, but since you've already made up your mind about whether Stanley can play back (without having seen him play there in a practice match) it is time for you to name your best 22.
From the backline, please, and the team that YOU would pick, not the team that will be picked.
plugger66 wrote:Also Im unsure you can just tell a guy like Stanley with about 2 games experience in the backline that you will play FB when we play against a side who has a tall forward. He isnt going to magically be able to play on them. He isnt that good and not many others are either.
I think you may well be right, but since you've already made up your mind about whether Stanley can play back (without having seen him play there in a practice match) it is time for you to name your best 22.
From the backline, please, and the team that YOU would pick, not the team that will be picked.
Thanks
I actually didnt say Stanley couldnt play back but I did say I dont think he can just swap back and forth depending on who we play. I want to see where Stanley plays and how others go before I could get even close to picking a side. i reckon people who pick their side now have already done their dream team.
plugger66 wrote:Also Im unsure you can just tell a guy like Stanley with about 2 games experience in the backline that you will play FB when we play against a side who has a tall forward. He isnt going to magically be able to play on them. He isnt that good and not many others are either.
I think you may well be right, but since you've already made up your mind about whether Stanley can play back (without having seen him play there in a practice match) it is time for you to name your best 22.
From the backline, please, and the team that YOU would pick, not the team that will be picked.
Thanks
I actually didnt say Stanley couldnt play back but I did say I dont think he can just swap back and forth depending on who we play. I want to see where Stanley plays and how others go before I could get even close to picking a side.
So it's still in the pipeline? It's coming? So's Christmas.
Carl, no offence but picking players in set positions doesn't mean much these days as players don't play these positions anymore and it doesn't account for match ups on the day. Might as well as pick a squad of around 24 or 25 players who are ready to go.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
SaintPav wrote:Carl, no offence but picking players in set positions doesn't mean much these days as players don't play these positions anymore and it doesn't account for match ups on the day. Might as well as pick a squad of around 24 or 25 players who are ready to go.
Plugger can defend himself quite adequetely, Pav. I just object to him taking potshots at people's views without putting his own up to similar scrutiny.
SaintPav wrote:Carl, no offence but picking players in set positions doesn't mean much these days as players don't play these positions anymore and it doesn't account for match ups on the day. Might as well as pick a squad of around 24 or 25 players who are ready to go.
Plugger can defend himself quite adequetely, Pav. I just object to him taking potshots at people's views without putting his own up to similar scrutiny.
It isnt pot shots, its my opinion that a ruckman wont start on the bench this day and age, that Hickey couldnt possible play CHB from what we have seen and so on. As Pav said the days of 18 players in position are over and at least whan you named your side you had 7 back. The problem is RL isnt coaching anymore and SW likes to start 6 forwards and 6 backs and then like every coach has around 12 players around the ball all the time. i think most players are in positions for about 10% of the game.
SaintPav wrote:Carl, no offence but picking players in set positions doesn't mean much these days as players don't play these positions anymore and it doesn't account for match ups on the day. Might as well as pick a squad of around 24 or 25 players who are ready to go.
Plugger can defend himself quite adequetely, Pav. I just object to him taking potshots at people's views without putting his own up to similar scrutiny.
Sure he can and I wasn't defending him. My point was about picking teams in set positions. I do think it's completely reasonable to see how some of these guys go in a couple of more games before putting forward a best 22.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
SaintPav wrote:Carl, no offence but picking players in set positions doesn't mean much these days as players don't play these positions anymore and it doesn't account for match ups on the day. Might as well as pick a squad of around 24 or 25 players who are ready to go.
Plugger can defend himself quite adequetely, Pav. I just object to him taking potshots at people's views without putting his own up to similar scrutiny.
It isnt pot shots, its my opinion that a ruckman wont start on the bench this day and age, that Hickey couldnt possible play CHB from what we have seen and so on. As Pav said the days of 18 players in position are over and at least whan you named your side you had 7 back. The problem is RL isnt coaching anymore and SW likes to start 6 forwards and 6 backs and then like every coach has around 12 players around the ball all the time. i think most players are in positions for about 10% of the game.
I'm pretty sure SW isn't big on playing a loose man in defence. He's an attacking coach and it will be interesting to see how he sets us up this year and how he uses Hickey and Stanley. Can't see Stanley playing back.
Our big weakness IMO isn't defense but midfield depth across the board while we lack one gun mid. I guess most teams could say that though.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
gringo wrote:They tried Saad in there against Adelaide, Milera was getting time last year in small bursts, Schnieds can, TDL could, Geary, Siposs, Newnes, Ray are all capable of playing as back ups while resting our core mids. Nothing any other club doesn't need to manage. We seem to have placed an emphasis on guys who can kick goals while playing as mids or wingers much like collingwood.
Im not sure how you can say that last line. Who are these players who kick goals whilst playing as wings or mids. Milera is a forward and is TDL and Saad. Dont think you are talking about Hickey, Lee or Roberton so I am confused. And we know it has never been Lenny, Joey or Dal. The only one we had we lost this year and that was BJ.
I'm suggesting the guys that have come in since he took over are like Beams, Swan and Sidebottom- guys that are all capable of either role. All the guys I mentioned can play those roles and while Milera is a forward he was played in multiple roles and definitely not just as a set small forward. I'm not sure you have been watching the games. He was coming from a state league fitness base and should be capable of more time on ball. Schniedes was being used there already by Ross Lyon towards the end of his time so I don't know why your so confused.
SaintPav wrote:Our big weakness IMO isn't defense but midfield depth across the board
I agree, hence this thread. So back to the original question, how can we improve it -- or can we improve it -- with existing personnel?
As Plugger said It would help greatly if guys like Saad, Milerra, Siposs, Newnes, Ledger, Dunnell and even TDL could step up and could play through there. I think we are going to struggle to match it with the top 4.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
gringo wrote:They tried Saad in there against Adelaide, Milera was getting time last year in small bursts, Schnieds can, TDL could, Geary, Siposs, Newnes, Ray are all capable of playing as back ups while resting our core mids. Nothing any other club doesn't need to manage. We seem to have placed an emphasis on guys who can kick goals while playing as mids or wingers much like collingwood.
Im not sure how you can say that last line. Who are these players who kick goals whilst playing as wings or mids. Milera is a forward and is TDL and Saad. Dont think you are talking about Hickey, Lee or Roberton so I am confused. And we know it has never been Lenny, Joey or Dal. The only one we had we lost this year and that was BJ.
I'm suggesting the guys that have come in since he took over are like Beams, Swan and Sidebottom- guys that are all capable of either role. All the guys I mentioned can play those roles and while Milera is a forward he was played in multiple roles and definitely not just as a set small forward. I'm not sure you have been watching the games. He was coming from a state league fitness base and should be capable of more time on ball. Schniedes was being used there already by Ross Lyon towards the end of his time so I don't know why your so confused.
Because you make a statement and then come up with Milera as the one player we have recruited who plays in the middle and kicks goals as well. He was recruited as a forward and have played probably 10% elsewhere. Every pies player you mentioned plays as a mid and then goes forward. We havent recruited one of those types. Carry on though.
SaintPav wrote:Our big weakness IMO isn't defense but midfield depth across the board
I agree, hence this thread. So back to the original question, how can we improve it -- or can we improve it -- with existing personnel?
As Plugger said It would help greatly if guys like Saad, Milerra, Siposs, Newnes, Ledger, Dunnell and even TDL could step up and could play through there. I think we are going to struggle to match it with the top 4.
I have to agree. There's been a lot of hand wringing on here over our lack of tall defenders, but I think our lack of midfield depth is the more urgent problem. Losing Cripps and Crocker not working out has hurt us, not to mention Lovett. So we desperately need at least 2 or 3 out of Ledger, Ross, Newnes, Saunders, Milera, Saad or Curren to come on. Quickly!
I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
bigcarl wrote:
I agree, hence this thread. So back to the original question, how can we improve it -- or can we improve it -- with existing personnel?
As Plugger said It would help greatly if guys like Saad, Milerra, Siposs, Newnes, Ledger, Dunnell and even TDL could step up and could play through there. I think we are going to struggle to match it with the top 4.
I have to agree. There's been a lot of hand wringing on here over our lack of tall defenders, but I think our lack of midfield depth is the more urgent problem. Losing Cripps and Crocker not working out has hurt us, not to mention Lovett. So we desperately need at least 2 or 3 out of Ledger, Ross, Newnes, Saunders, Milera, Saad or Curren to come on. Quickly!
And as much as BJ wasnt a great mid he was better than average and I havent seen a replcement for him either. We really need to find one or two more this season. We need Ross to bome on and maybe Curren and one or two others.
Saad, Milera, Gilbert, Geary,Ledger,Ross,Dempster,TDL, Sippo and Newnes will all be used through out the midfield at different points in games throughout the year.
If you add them to lenny, dal, monty, stevens and armo aswell as clinton jones and it starts to look alot better.
if maybe nathan wright can get 10+ games aswell or wright + any of our other draftes get 12+ across them again we will be more then ok.
Just remember, Collingwood in 09' lacked a midfield. In 10' they only gained ball - the rest were kids in there first or second years standing up.
We are at this point now in our cycle - people ether stand up and stkilda rises or its left to the veterans for 22 games a year to do all the work and we fall.
Im confident watters and laidley + co have this under control.
I can pretty much guarantee that you WILL see a spare back in most games.... He will be #2
A float back wingman, he will use the HB as a starting point and be given the ball as often as possible.... Sound familiar? Someone else used to do that.... Most clubs have a similar player.....
Set position were lost a bit with the rugby GP that came during 2005-2010 but believe me, they are back in vogue, with forward structures and defensive structures being paramount.
When once, players would sprint to a stoppage to create numbers around the ball, and space fwd of the ball...... This was counteracted easily by spares .....
Now you see players spirit away from stoppages to get the structure right....
Players are playing in either third, and there are teams within teams....
Our midfield group is solid
Led by the old firm Hayes, Dal, Joey... Add Armo, Steven... Siposs will be the QB sweeper.... Not the worst?!
The will be one more??
Could be Ray, Ledger, Ross, Newnes, CJ..... Occasionally maybe Fisher, Gilbert (wing), Dempster (stop), Schnieder or Geary might pop in there for gaps.... But will have other primary roles...
Saad, Milera, Milne, Schnieder will operate as small fwds.... That role is demanding enough... With pressing and defensive pressure
BigMart wrote:I can pretty much guarantee that you WILL see a spare back in most games
I think that's not a bad idea considering the ease with which we were scored against last year.
I'm all for attack and certainly don't want to see a return to all numbers behind the ball, but it is a matter of degrees.
An extra man in defence can open up the forward line and make scoring easier. What you don't want, however, is one forward ... to whom you direct every attack ... with three guys on him.
BigMart wrote:I can pretty much guarantee that you WILL see a spare back in most games
I think that's not a bad idea considering the ease with which we were scored against last year.
I'm all for attack and certainly don't want to see a return to all numbers behind the ball, but it is a matter of degrees.
An extra man in defence can open up the forward line and make scoring easier.
I totally disagree that we will have a spare man all the time and even if we do it is more likely to be a wingman than a forward and I think it will be at the start of the game and after goals when there is a ball up. And these days after a ball up around the ground a player always drops off the back anyway. Im not sure you would call that a permanent spare man in the backline though.
That would be against the standard structure which operates currently at most levels of footy.
A five man fish bone structure is clearly the most common one.... With a pretty common compilation of roles
Five man dual cluster and 5 man horse shoe also used....
The difference is the ratios used, often 2/3 or 3/2.... But Carlton/port/Richmond occasionally employed a1/5
HHF or next mid is now used by all teams
The cascade effect, generally creates an extra or sweeper/7th .... Can be either
You can only really figure out a set up in general play.... At the bounce you often see wingman and HFs running around the square... It's in reaction to match ups and set ups.... The are either trying to create or quell the 'extra'
The position will generally be, the trick is who and how you get him there??
BigMart wrote:That would be against the standard structure which operates currently at most levels of footy.
A five man fish bone structure is clearly the most common one.... With a pretty common compilation of roles
Five man dual cluster and 5 man horse shoe also used....
The difference is the ratios used, often 2/3 or 3/2.... But Carlton/port/Richmond occasionally employed a1/5
HHF or next mid is now used by all teams
The cascade effect, generally creates an extra or sweeper/7th .... Can be either
You can only really figure out a set up in general play.... At the bounce you often see wingman and HFs running around the square... It's in reaction to match ups and set ups.... The are either trying to create or quell the 'extra'
The position will generally be, the trick is who and how you get him there??
Who are you talking to and what are you talking about. All I know is at every ball up a player drops off the back and most sides start 6 men in the forward line when there is a goal scored. They may push up to just about the wing to cover a wingman who has pushed up to the HB line. Also at ball ups aroung the ground there is usally about 20 players around the ball or within 10 metres of the ball up.
To the silly person who has most likely never played a game of footy or understand the full mechanics of it.
Game plans don't just exist for centre bounces... They are set plays...
Explain a forward structure to me P66?? How does a group of (5) set up so they create individual space, are predictable to the midfield and each other??? It's a little more complex than one dropping off at the bounce.... Because he will have an opponent...
