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RememberJDaniels wrote:He left for more money than we were willing to pay for him, fair enough. But does some of the responsibility lie with the list managing to ensure that good players stay put at the Saints?
He was payed plenty when he was dojng nothing.
Define doing nothing?
during his supposed poorer years with Saints he averaged better than 20 possesions and 5 tackles per game,
admittedly this below his output at filth, but that may have something to do with different game plan and enjoying the confidence of the coach.
kosifantutti wrote:Other than Roberton, Gilbert, Fisher, Gwilt, Simpkin, Dempster, Ferguson and Blake we have hardly anyone that size to play down back.
Okay Fair call. He's not 195 or 196. But in an effort to emphasise your point you're exaggerating the height we have. Gwilt is 188. Blake is 189. Simpkin is 191. So are Dempster and Fisher. Ferguson is not even on the senior list. Of the guys you mention only Roberton and Gilbo are more than 191 and Roberton is hardly a proven performer. So we actually have Gilbo as our only established, experienced plus 191 backman. Maybe another experienced mature bodied 100 gamer at 193 might be handy. Watters has taken a punt on Roberton obviously hoping that's what he'll become.
Quality individual, quality player - deserved what he was on as he gave his all from day one. Game after game he was in there getting the hard ball, getting injured, playing injured. The most iconic image of Ball was coming off bloody, getting bandaged up, and getting straight back in. Game after game.
Whether a champion? All I know is that if he'd stayed we probably would have a flag. He and Jolly plugged two gaping holes in the Pies game plan.
"The starting point of all achievement is desire. "
RememberJDaniels wrote:He left for more money than we were willing to pay for him, fair enough. But does some of the responsibility lie with the list managing to ensure that good players stay put at the Saints?
He was payed plenty when he was dojng nothing.
Define doing nothing?
during his supposed poorer years with Saints he averaged better than 20 possesions and 5 tackles per game,
admittedly this below his output at filth, but that may have something to do with different game plan and enjoying the confidence of the coach.
Armo is apparently a dud when he only get 20 possies a game so probably not enough out put for a top paid player.
desertsaint wrote:Quality individual, quality player - deserved what he was on as he gave his all from day one. Game after game he was in there getting the hard ball, getting injured, playing injured. The most iconic image of Ball was coming off bloody, getting bandaged up, and getting straight back in. Game after game.
Whether a champion? All I know is that if he'd stayed we probably would have a flag. He and Jolly plugged two gaping holes in the Pies game plan.
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some way help us get a trade is just wrong.
desertsaint wrote:Quality individual, quality player - deserved what he was on as he gave his all from day one. Game after game he was in there getting the hard ball, getting injured, playing injured. The most iconic image of Ball was coming off bloody, getting bandaged up, and getting straight back in. Game after game.
Whether a champion? All I know is that if he'd stayed we probably would have a flag. He and Jolly plugged two gaping holes in the Pies game plan.
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some get us a trade is just wrong.
Maybe we burt him as well and it isnt his job to organise a trade It is up to us and the club a player is going to.
CURLY wrote:
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some way help us get a trade is just wrong.
Your expectations of loyalty are pretty high IMO. Lyon showed no faith in him. Because he didn't fit Lyon's template for what a mid should do, he demoted him and humiliated him. Pretty high expectation to expect the bloke to just cop it and still act for the love of the club. And the idea that a player can dictate the terms of a trade regarding other players is also a pretty big expectation. Don't blame Ball. Blame Lyon and the football dept management. If they couldn't see the writing on the wall then they're the ones who let us down.
And don't think it was easy for Ball. He didn't want to leave and was absolutely gutted to be playing against his mates in the 2010 GF. Happy to receive the medallion though. And good luck to him.
CURLY wrote:
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some way help us get a trade is just wrong.
Your expectations of loyalty are pretty high IMO. Lyon showed no faith in him. Because he didn't fit Lyon's template for what a mid should do, he demoted him and humiliated him. Pretty high expectation to expect the bloke to just cop it and still act for the love of the club. And the idea that a player can dictate the terms of a trade regarding other players is also a pretty big expectation. Don't blame Ball. Blame Lyon and the football dept management. If they couldn't see the writing on the wall then they're the ones who let us down.
And don't think it was easy for Ball. He didn't want to leave and was absolutely gutted to be playing against his mates in the 2010 GF. Happy to receive the medallion though. And good luck to him.
CURLY wrote:
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some way help us get a trade is just wrong.
Your expectations of loyalty are pretty high IMO. Lyon showed no faith in him. Because he didn't fit Lyon's template for what a mid should do, he demoted him and humiliated him. Pretty high expectation to expect the bloke to just cop it and still act for the love of the club. And the idea that a player can dictate the terms of a trade regarding other players is also a pretty big expectation. Don't blame Ball. Blame Lyon and the football dept management. If they couldn't see the writing on the wall then they're the ones who let us down.
And don't think it was easy for Ball. He didn't want to leave and was absolutely gutted to be playing against his mates in the 2010 GF. Happy to receive the medallion though. And good luck to him.
How did Lyon humiliate him? If you mean by improving his workrate something I might add he has managed to do at Collingwood thats pissweak. Ball could of helped us with a trade if the sook didnt bend us over and say he'd only go to Collingwood.
The common link in the whole Ball scenario was Lyon's intransigence.
Let's assume that playing Ball at Sandringham mfor a few weeks was warranted on form or structures.
His being left to rot on the bench for most of 2nd half of GF 2009 (in conditions made to order) was sheer idiocy.
Cherry on the cake was not getting something from Collingwood coz Master coach wanted to play tough!
whiskers3614 wrote:The common link in the whole Ball scenario was Lyon's intransigence.
Let's assume that playing Ball at Sandringham mfor a few weeks was warranted on form or structures.
His being left to rot on the bench for most of 2nd half of GF 2009 (in conditions made to order) was sheer idiocy.
Cherry on the cake was not getting something from Collingwood coz Master coach wanted to play tough!
Which part exactly?
How effective were Ball &Lenny in first half of 09 GF, and how well did Lenny go in second half whilst Ball sat on bench?
Coaching master stroke!!
CURLY wrote:
The bloke burnt us. Bent us over and gave it to us. How people think he couldnt have in some way help us get a trade is just wrong.
Your expectations of loyalty are pretty high IMO. Lyon showed no faith in him. Because he didn't fit Lyon's template for what a mid should do, he demoted him and humiliated him. Pretty high expectation to expect the bloke to just cop it and still act for the love of the club. And the idea that a player can dictate the terms of a trade regarding other players is also a pretty big expectation. Don't blame Ball. Blame Lyon and the football dept management. If they couldn't see the writing on the wall then they're the ones who let us down.
And don't think it was easy for Ball. He didn't want to leave and was absolutely gutted to be playing against his mates in the 2010 GF. Happy to receive the medallion though. And good luck to him.
How did Lyon humiliate him? If you mean by improving his workrate something I might add he has managed to do at Collingwood thats pissweak. Ball could of helped us with a trade if the sook didnt bend us over and say he'd only go to Collingwood.
I didnt realise it was the player who helps organise a trade. .
If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
From memory, Melbourne were pretty interested, and had some nice draft picks. I think Ball refused to even speak to them.
Last edited by 8856brother on Sun 27 Jan 2013 9:17pm, edited 2 times in total.
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"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
CURLY wrote:If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
He wanted to go to the pies. Any club could have taken him. We knew he wanted to go but we couldnt get a trade done. It isnt up to Ball to say he will go anywhere if he doesnt want to.
CURLY wrote:If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
He wanted to go to the pies. Any club could have taken him. We knew he wanted to go but we couldnt get a trade done. It isnt up to Ball to say he will go anywhere if he doesnt want to.
CURLY wrote:If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
He wanted to go to the pies. Any club could have taken him. We knew he wanted to go but we couldnt get a trade done. It isnt up to Ball to say he will go anywhere if he doesnt want to.
whiskers3614 wrote:The common link in the whole Ball scenario was Lyon's intransigence.
Let's assume that playing Ball at Sandringham mfor a few weeks was warranted on form or structures.
His being left to rot on the bench for most of 2nd half of GF 2009 (in conditions made to order) was sheer idiocy.
Cherry on the cake was not getting something from Collingwood coz Master coach wanted to play tough!
Yes this. The reason Ball was dropped was his inability to meet a running benchmark set by Lyon. Total intransigence on Lyon's part. Twat. And totally yep - leaving Ball warming the bench for the second half against Geelong. FFS what a dill.
CURLY wrote:If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
Why should he be open to going to any club at all? Would you be happy to go to any company at all, even if they're shyte? The guy was an established player and leadership material. WTF wouldn't he want to go to a club where he might taste some success?
In your scenario, he could have gone to Melbourne or another bottom dweller and maybe never played another final. But he should have been willing to cop that for the sake of the club that had made it clear to him that his on-field skills were inadequate in an arbitrary benchmark set by Lyon?
That's crap.
He was perfectly entitled to look to go where he wanted to. Lyon gave him one message about his on-field value and then refused to deal with Collingwood because he was elite. Talk about a double message. Blame is fair and square with Lyon.
CURLY wrote:Ball screwed us P66 don't try and argue differant the bloke sooked and made it impossible for us to get a fair trade.
Yep OK Curly we've heard about what a sook he is. You've posted that about ten times. How about addressing :
- his right to choose his own destiny. Tell us why exactly he should have been willing to go to any club at all, just like you'd be willing to work for any firm.
- Lyon's arbitrary mid-field running benchmark that led to him being dropped. Malthouse didn't have a problem with his on-field value. Seem to remember him collecting a premiership medallion.
- How many players can you remember stipulating the terms of who they'll be traded for? Can't name any myself. Yet you reckon Ball should somehow have influenced this.
CURLY wrote:If Ball had of been open to a trade to any club Collingwood would of had ti come up with a decent trade to get him. Ball screwed the club his team mates and supporters.
Why should he be open to going to any club at all? Would you be happy to go to any company at all, even if they're shyte? The guy was an established player and leadership material. WTF wouldn't he want to go to a club where he might taste some success?
In your scenario, he could have gone to Melbourne or another bottom dweller and maybe never played another final. But he should have been willing to cop that for the sake of the club that had made it clear to him that his on-field skills were inadequate in an arbitrary benchmark set by Lyon?
That's crap.
He was perfectly entitled to look to go where he wanted to. Lyon gave him one message about his on-field value and then refused to deal with Collingwood because he was elite. Talk about a double message. Blame is fair and square with Lyon.
So he screwed us. Ball sooked and went to the highest bidder leaving his climb with nothing. The bloke burnt his team mates and all those who supported him . He had no reason other than being a selfish sook.
