Why all the buzz about Mitch Brown?

[White Winmar]

As a football tragic, I recently caught a couple of WCE games of 2012 on Foxtel. I was interested as they featured the object of our off season trading desires, Mitch Brown. I trust our recruiters weren't basing their opinions on the games I saw. I then looked up his stats for the year and found he'd played 8 senior games, averaged 8 possessions a game (3 kicks, 5 hb) and 3 marks. These figures were inflated somewhat by a prolific 15 possessions against the Suns. I don't want to judge a player purely on stats, or two games, but I must say he looked very ordinary. I didn't find it hard to believe the WC only used him sparingly last year and that they chose the likes of Schofield, McKenzie and Hurn in preference to him. I'm certainly relieved we didn't give up all of Cripps and picks 25 & 26 for him, as was rumoured we were prepared to. I think we'll be better off with Wright and White in the long term.

I know our staff will have done their homework on him, but I can't help thinking we were desperate and therefore willing to pay well over the odds for him. I reckon we may have dodged a bullet, short-term, at least in terms of what we were willing to give up. If we're still interested for next year, I hope he has a decent 2013 and we can get him for nothing, other than his salary. On the evidence, that might not be the bargain we think it is, either. That and he'll be nudging 25, so you have to wonder how much he's going to improve. Anyone on here know a lot about him, or seen him play at WAFL level? St. Trav, what do you know about him and what is your opinion?

[Con Gorozidis]

I think we dodged a bullet. 3 years x $350k for a 2nd string Eagle.

Lets see how Roberton, Simpkin and Ferguson perform in 2013 before we panic.

[magnifisaint]

Mate you keep harping on about Ferguson but he's still a rookie and hasn't played a senior game. I hope he's as good as you think he is.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I agree that we dodged a bullet by not giving up what was rumoured to have been offered for him (although I dare say there would have been something coming along with him, like the 41 and 43 picks that we got in the Cripps trade eventually), as I am a lot happier to have White and Wright, all things being equal, as I'm not sold on Brown, but the thing with Brown is that, as you suggested, we were genuinely desperate and there just look to be very few "KPD's" (of the 195cm or more that we wanted) going around that are any good. It's a supply and demand thing. The supply is very low and as such the demand goes way up. I wouldn't worry too much about his stats or marks though, because I think what attracted us the most to him is his height and very strong body, to be able to play on the "gorillas" that wiped the floor with us this year. That's why we wanted him.

I was told we canvassed the industry prior to making a play for him and the general consensus was that he wasn't worth anywhere near as much as we eventually allegedly offered up for him (hence us originally trying to get him for just a straight swap for Cripps), but the fact that we didn't think there was anyone else that was even as good as him meant that we ended up offering up much more than that in the end. The fact that West Coast knocked all that back also tells you something. They thought he was the best available too and have been planning on him taking over from Glass when he retires at the end of next season (apparently/evidently). If what we offered up really was "overs" for him then West Coast would have snapped it up and run like they stole it, but they didn't. There are simply very few alternatives out there by the look of it, as evidenced by us not even bothering to pick someone in the PSD or rookie draft for bugger-all to try out for that role.

If we didn't think that with him we would be in contention again next year I dare say we wouldn't have offered up as much for him, but my mail is that we did and as such felt it was worth giving up a lot for him, if it plugged the final "gap" we had on our list.

What you also need to consider when weighing all this up is that we had another trade up our sleeves that we would have pushed for if this one had gone through, that would have put us back up the draft order again, but once the Brown deal fell through, we didn't go through with the other one, as it would have left us too vulnerable. Then there was also the Farren Ray to Melbourne deal that according to Melbourne didn't go through because we were still trying to do the Brown deal until the very end, although it is probably a good thing that that didn't go through in the end, as we might have been in a bit of strife on the outside if we didn't have any of Goddard, Ray, or Gram (who was acked not long after) any more.

[fingers]

Maybe we felt any FB was better than none? A mid level FB mught keep us somewhat competitive. Who knows.

[SaintPav]

As a football tragic, I recently caught a couple of WCE games of 2012 on Foxtel. I was interested as they featured the object of our off season trading desires, Mitch Brown. I trust our recruiters weren't basing their opinions on the games I saw. I then looked up his stats for the year and found he'd played 8 senior games, averaged 8 possessions a game (3 kicks, 5 hb) and 3 marks. These figures were inflated somewhat by a prolific 15 possessions against the Suns. I don't want to judge a player purely on stats, or two games, but I must say he looked very ordinary. I didn't find it hard to believe the WC only used him sparingly last year and that they chose the likes of Schofield, McKenzie and Hurn in preference to him. I'm certainly relieved we didn't give up all of Cripps and picks 25 & 26 for him, as was rumoured we were prepared to. I think we'll be better off with Wright and White in the long term.

I know our staff will have done their homework on him, but I can't help thinking we were desperate and therefore willing to pay well over the odds for him. I reckon we may have dodged a bullet, short-term, at least in terms of what we were willing to give up. If we're still interested for next year, I hope he has a decent 2013 and we can get him for nothing, other than his salary. On the evidence, that might not be the bargain we think it is, either. That and he'll be nudging 25, so you have to wonder how much he's going to improve. Anyone on here know a lot about him, or seen him play at WAFL level? St. Trav, what do you know about him and what is your opinion?

Totally, totally agree WW. Picks 25 and 26 would have been ridiculous price to pay if that were true. I know he can play on the gorilla's but at best he is worth a late second round draft pick.

We would have been much better off keeping Zac last year..

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

We would have been much better off keeping Zac last year..

[/quote]
That is true and that is something we've probably been regretting for a while now.

[Richter]

I agree that we dodged a bullet by not giving up what was rumoured to have been offered for him (although I dare say there would have been something coming along with him, like the 41 and 43 picks that we got in the Cripps trade eventually), as I am a lot happier to have White and Wright, all things being equal, as I'm not sold on Brown, but the thing with Brown is that, as you suggested, we were genuinely desperate and there just look to be very few "KPD's" (of the 195cm or more that we wanted) going around that are any good. It's a supply and demand thing. The supply is very low and as such the demand goes way up. I wouldn't worry too much about his stats or marks though, because I think what attracted us the most to him is his height and very strong body, to be able to play on the "gorillas" that wiped the floor with us this year. That's why we wanted him.

I was told we canvassed the industry prior to making a play for him and the general consensus was that he wasn't worth anywhere near as much as we eventually allegedly offered up for him (hence us originally trying to get him for just a straight swap for Cripps), but the fact that we didn't think there was anyone else that was even as good as him meant that we ended up offering up much more than that in the end. The fact that West Coast knocked all that back also tells you something. They thought he was the best available too and have been planning on him taking over from Glass when he retires at the end of next season (apparently/evidently). If what we offered up really was "overs" for him then West Coast would have snapped it up and run like they stole it, but they didn't. There are simply very few alternatives out there by the look of it, as evidenced by us not even bothering to pick someone in the PSD or rookie draft for bugger-all to try out for that role.

If we didn't think that with him we would be in contention again next year I dare say we wouldn't have offered up as much for him, but my mail is that we did and as such felt it was worth giving up a lot for him, if it plugged the final "gap" we had on our list.

What you also need to consider when weighing all this up is that we had another trade up our sleeves that we would have pushed for if this one had gone through, that would have put us back up the draft order again, but once the Brown deal fell through, we didn't go through with the other one, as it would have left us too vulnerable.

You make a lot of sense there APS. Are you able to be more specific about the 'trade up our sleeve'?

A couple of other things that I would add...

- I think that by going after Brown so aggressively it is an important message to the playing group that Watters expects us to be in finals contention i.e. in maintaining high standards of effort and performance

- Also lets Mitch Brown knows that we value him highly, hence improving our chances of picking him up next year - when he will get more of a say in his final destination

[lloyd21]

Yes agree we dodged a bullet thought Stkilda recruiters panicked in the end.

Don't think we will get Mitch Brown next year either as Eagles will offer deal to him. Thought he has slowed down a lot when he did ACL , would really prefer Stkilda target
GWS / Gold Coast kids that have had 2 years development in system like Tomlinson .If Milera's partner is still homesick going forward they might even get Clurey afterall.

When you look at Wright & White we would look pretty stupid in 2 years if it had gone thru.

[Richter]

We would have been much better off keeping Zac last year..

Sure, but Zac left for $$ and for Lyon. To keep him who would we have had to de-list?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6191011871

ZAC Dawson has walked out on St Kilda but the Saints have re-signed Sean Dempster, Farren Ray, Brett Peake, Dean Polo and Raph Clarke.

Presumably 1 or 2 of these players would have had to been let go

- Sean Dempster - what a mistake that would have been after the year he's just had
- Farren Ray - more of a bit player this year, but his performance against Carlton arguably won us that game and helped to set standards for midfield selection
- Brett Peake - would not have been much of a loss, but probably wasn't on much $$ anyway
- Dean Polo - ditto
- Raph Clarke - ditto

And perhaps irrespective Zac would have walked.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

You make a lot of sense there APS. Are you able to be more specific about the 'trade up our sleeve'?

Let me put it this way. If we had gotten Brown, we would have had all of Brown, Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Simpkin, Dempster down back and that is 6 already who are around the 190cm mark or taller (or play that way- ie Gwilt), plus Siposs, who finished off the year so well there (and Ferguson, who is coming on) and there was a certain club that was pretty desperate to add to their defensive stocks and had openly put a bunch of their many draft picks on the table to any club that would give them someone they wanted to help fill any of the gaps they had in their list. That club may also have had someone in charge of their list management who may or may not have coached our backline for a few years and as such would have very fond memories of how they played when he was coaching them and as such may have been very keen to get one of them for one of those draft picks, say in the early teens.

That's as far as I'm going to go on that one.

I doubt we would have offered up picks 25 and 26 (what they were at the time) if we didn't have that other deal to put us back up the order again, which, while it would have probably weakened us somewhat in the short term, would have enabled us to get someone really talented for the long term.

I reckon the only thing that would have made all those deals going through worthwhile though would have been winning next year's flag, so unless we were going to do that, thanks to having Brown in our side, then I'm confident that it worked out better this way, especially if we get Brown or someone similar more cheaply next year.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

first off in my opinion Mitch Browns price was inflated due to the fact he was contracted , the WCE are not known to just help its competition out by just letting a player go so any trade was always going to have to be heavily weighted in their favour ...
as for how Brown plays at WAFL level he is good to very good depending on the role he is given he often shows that class that highlights he is above the WAFL level but at time (an this is just my feel on it) he kind of gets disheartend by the fact he is stuck in the WAFL , i remember him having a few very very good games and there was talk of him getting recalled up to the eagles but it didnt quiet happen the following week he really looked to me as if he was just going through the motions ... i dont think he is going to come to the saints now as i have a feeling he will get an extention put under his nose mid year that he will sign ....

[st_Trav_ofWA]

i dont get this link between SOS and the saints ..... i would imagine he would have little to no interest to helping any team other than the one he is currently an employee with

[SaintPav]

first off in my opinion Mitch Browns price was inflated due to the fact he was contracted , the WCE are not known to just help its competition out by just letting a player go so any trade was always going to have to be heavily weighted in their favour ...
as for how Brown plays at WAFL level he is good to very good depending on the role he is given he often shows that class that highlights he is above the WAFL level but at time (an this is just my feel on it) he kind of gets disheartend by the fact he is stuck in the WAFL , i remember him having a few very very good games and there was talk of him getting recalled up to the eagles but it didnt quiet happen the following week he really looked to me as if he was just going through the motions ... i dont think he is going to come to the saints now as i have a feeling he will get an extention put under his nose mid year that he will sign ....

Why would he sign an extension if he's stuck in the WAFL when a Victorian club like us might give him a better go at it?

[st_Trav_ofWA]

first off in my opinion Mitch Browns price was inflated due to the fact he was contracted , the WCE are not known to just help its competition out by just letting a player go so any trade was always going to have to be heavily weighted in their favour ...
as for how Brown plays at WAFL level he is good to very good depending on the role he is given he often shows that class that highlights he is above the WAFL level but at time (an this is just my feel on it) he kind of gets disheartend by the fact he is stuck in the WAFL , i remember him having a few very very good games and there was talk of him getting recalled up to the eagles but it didnt quiet happen the following week he really looked to me as if he was just going through the motions ... i dont think he is going to come to the saints now as i have a feeling he will get an extention put under his nose mid year that he will sign ....

Why would he sign an extension if he's stuck in the WAFL when a Victorian club like us might give him a better go at it?

because Glass is getting older ... the word is he is very happy at West Coast it was only his lack of games in AFL that had him looking elsewhere ... my money will be on him getting more games this year in the Eagles as the WCE manage Glass through the season

[Con Gorozidis]

Mate you keep harping on about Ferguson but he's still a rookie and hasn't played a senior game. I hope he's as good as you think he is.

Yep Yep I know. He is still only just on 20 - so no shame in being a rookie at his age.
I think hes good. Lets see how he goes this year with a little more bulk on his frame.
Just had a quick squiz at this to refresh my memory...

http://bigpondvideo.com/AFL/476551/jack ... -round-19/

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

i dont get this link between SOS and the saints ..... i would imagine he would have little to no interest to helping any team other than the one he is currently an employee with

I made no suggestion of that final trade being any favour to us. It was going to be mutually beneficial (a "win-win"), but we were only going to go through with it if the Brown deal went through. Otherwise it would have left us even more vulnerable down back and most likely weaker in the short term.

GWS were simply very keen to fill a structural hole in their backline and help them become more competitive sooner and like us with Brown, were prepared to pay a pretty hefty price in order to do so. The fact they had a ridiculously strong list in most areas and had a bag full of picks to throw around just made it easier for them to be willing to give up a highish pick. By that stage they had been unable to attract anyone at all to their club in the final year of their "uncontracted player concessions" (the same ones that got them Scully the year before and that got Gold Coast Ablett and co.), so they started offering their high picks to clubs in trades, to help them get some more experienced senior talent into their team, so that it wasn't just full of "kids".

[White Winmar]

That deal didn't involve Fisher or Gilbert, did it APS? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I heard that both were discussed quite seriously, but that the deal couldn't get done. If done, we would've ended up with Brown and a very early draft pick.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Considering I was told who they were in confidence and they are also still at the club, I'm not going to say who I was told it was, but it was pretty common knowledge that GWS were apparently very keen to get someone senior into their backline and to also add to their run and carry out of there and with SOS having worked so closely with most of those in our current backline, it's fair to say they were very keen on one or two of them in the recent trade period.

Their other main aim was apparently to add to their outside midfield class and run and carry and the word is that they also offered pick 2 for Delidio and pick 3 I think it might have been for Gibbs, but those clubs knocked them back (or else those involved didn't want to go there- that was apparently GWS's big problem, no-one wanted to go there!).

[White Winmar]

Thanks APS. Didn't expect you to put yourself on the spot or betray a confidence. Enough said.

[santazzi]

i dont get this link between SOS and the saints ..... i would imagine he would have little to no interest to helping any team other than the one he is currently an employee with

I made no suggestion of that final trade being any favour to us. It was going to be mutually beneficial (a "win-win"), but we were only going to go through with it if the Brown deal went through. Otherwise it would have left us even more vulnerable down back and most likely weaker in the short term.

GWS were simply very keen to fill a structural hole in their backline and help them become more competitive sooner and like us with Brown, were prepared to pay a pretty hefty price in order to do so. The fact they had a ridiculously strong list in most areas and had a bag full of picks to throw around just made it easier for them to be willing to give up a highish pick. By that stage they had been unable to attract anyone at all to their club in the final year of their "uncontracted player concessions" (the same ones that got them Scully the year before and that got Gold Coast Ablett and co.), so they started offering their high picks to clubs in trades, to help them get some more experienced senior talent into their team, so that it wasn't just full of "kids".

APS...the only Saints player, I personally can think of, out of the six back men you mentioned which may plug a hole for SOS is Fisher. How would losing Fisher, gaining Brown and a high teen pick make us contenders next year?

[st_Trav_ofWA]

i dont get this link between SOS and the saints ..... i would imagine he would have little to no interest to helping any team other than the one he is currently an employee with

I made no suggestion of that final trade being any favour to us. It was going to be mutually beneficial (a "win-win"), but we were only going to go through with it if the Brown deal went through. Otherwise it would have left us even more vulnerable down back and most likely weaker in the short term.

GWS were simply very keen to fill a structural hole in their backline and help them become more competitive sooner and like us with Brown, were prepared to pay a pretty hefty price in order to do so. The fact they had a ridiculously strong list in most areas and had a bag full of picks to throw around just made it easier for them to be willing to give up a highish pick. By that stage they had been unable to attract anyone at all to their club in the final year of their "uncontracted player concessions" (the same ones that got them Scully the year before and that got Gold Coast Ablett and co.), so they started offering their high picks to clubs in trades, to help them get some more experienced senior talent into their team, so that it wasn't just full of "kids".

interesting ....

[Con Gorozidis]

This makes no sense unless we had a deal to on trade the high teen pick to the Eagles for Brown - thus making it effectively a swap of Brown for Fisher.

If it was pick 2 for Fisher (which was the rumour but seemed HIGHLY unlikely) - Id have taken it in a heartbeat.

But if it is only Fisher for a teen pick that we then traded for Brown. Im very happy to keep Fisher!

[Rosco]

This makes no sense unless we had a deal to on trade the high teen pick to the Eagles for Brown - thus making it effectively a swap of Brown for Fisher.

If it was pick 2 for Fisher (which was the rumour but seemed HIGHLY unlikely) - Id have taken it in a heartbeat.

But if it is only Fisher for a teen pick that we then traded for Brown. Im very happy to keep Fisher!

I think it was more like we needed brown to cover the loss of fisher, so we could then use the teen pick in the draft. brown had to be acquired using something else. we couldnt manage that so it fell over, apparently.

fisher is 30 already, wouldn't have been the worst move ever but very hard to trade a club champion.

[plugger66]

Fisher was never leaving the saints. It makes no sense at all unless we got some stupid high pick. GWS wouldnt want a 30 year old. There is no point at all. And Chips never wanted to leave.