Congratulations Bevo- the changing face of recruiting.

[saintbrat]

http://aflca.com.au/index.php?id=14&tx_ ... 92c2ccccc3

Lifetime achievment award at the Coaches association award night

http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsartic ... fault.aspx

The indisputable passion to follow players’ AFL development is something ‘JB' finds most rewarding. “You certainly get enjoyment out of young players making the grade and seeing those fellas grow into elite athletes, such as Nick Riewoldt or Justin Koschitzke. More importantly though, a lot of these lads have become outstanding people. And I think that’s been the strength of the group that’s got us into a couple of grand finals recently; just the mental strength” he said.

Those whom have had significant influence on Beveridge’s career include Allan Jeans, Ian Drake, Ian Stewart, Stuart Trott and Gary Colling. “I don’t want to single out individuals but Allan Jeans had quite an influence on me, as he has on most people. In respect to the coaches particularly, it would be wrong to single them out because they have all had an influence in their own ways. I respect and totally appreciate what they’ve done and the advice they’ve given me over time.”

Having previously been involved in the Saints’ development squad in the early 1980s, Beveridge supported Wayne Hughes from 1989 to 1994, when he transferred to Fremantle Football Club as their Melbourne Manager.

When the opportunity arose to venture into recruiting, Beveridge grabbed it with both hands. “Ian Stewart and Ian Drake offered it to me and I said to my wife, “Look, it will be full time footy and I’d like to give it a crack. It might only last three or four years” Beveridge said.

30 years later, Beveridge is now still heavily involved in recruiting, although on a part time basis, after deciding in 2006 to scale back his role. “John Peake became Recruiting Manager in 2007 and Tony Elshaug took over from him in 2011 when John went back to Geelong.”

Working closely with current recruiters Tony Elshaug, Ameet Bains (List Manager), Chris Liberatore and Paul Collins, Beveridge shares a high respect for the current recruiting team, including excellent part-time staff Australia wide. “The staff in Football departments has dramatically increased over time and our present team of Tony Elshaug, Ameet Bains, Chris Liberatore and Paul Collins work very well as a team. I’d like to thank them for their continued support. It’s great that we’re all able to bounce things off each other.”

[saintbrat]

the changing face of recruiting
http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsartic ... fault.aspx

It is a far cry from the very first draft in 1986 according to Beveridge.

“There were club development blokes but there wasn’t much happening in recruiting. The preparation for that ’86 draft was almost ringing the secretary of a country league and asking who their good players were,” he said.

“St Kilda drafted Steven Sims from West Torrens and I think he signed a contract but never came. It was pretty hit and miss in those days.”

Sims was the second ever player drafted, after the newly formed Brisbane Bears took Martin Leslie with the first selection.

The early years resulted in plenty of West Australian and South Australian players drafted to the eastern states only to never leave their home towns.

In many cases the players knew as little about their new teams as the recruiters knew about the talent.

“We probably had only one part-time recruiter in South Australia and one part-timer in Western Australia. We’ve now got three in each of those states,” Beveridge said.

[ace]

So we wasted a No2 draft pick on a player without first checking that he would definitely move from WA to Victoria.
Absolutely brilliant recruiting - we prevented another club from selecting him and making the same mistake!

[Scoop]

So we wasted a No2 draft pick on a player without first checking that he would definitely move from WA to Victoria.
Absolutely brilliant recruiting - we prevented another club from selecting him and making the same mistake!

We weren't the only ones......and he was from SA....

Drafting in the early days was very hit or miss....mostly miss......

[saintspremiers]

So we wasted a No2 draft pick on a player without first checking that he would definitely move from WA to Victoria.
Absolutely brilliant recruiting - we prevented another club from selecting him and making the same mistake!

We weren't the only ones......and he was from SA....

Drafting in the early days was very hit or miss....mostly miss......

It was downright stupid. Clearly footy clubs weren't run like a business!

[Con Gorozidis]

Im quite certain telephones had been invented by the 1980s.
Although the Saints seemed yet to have heard of them.
No wonder we won so many spoons. Rabble.

[Yaysaints]

To be fair , we just didn't have the money or resources

[saintbrat]

http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsartic ... fault.aspx

It was A-grade detective work from Beveridge who says that level of deliberate deception and feigned disinterest isn’t as common in the modern day.

“Nowadays I reckon everybody interviews everybody so this cloak and dagger stuff doesn’t happen so much anymore.”

[magnifisaint]

he certainly had more misses than hits

[plugger66]

he certainly had more misses than hits

As has every recruiter.

[White Winmar]

he certainly had more misses than hits

As has every recruiter.

Too true, plugger. The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly, the predictive nature of the discipline means there is inherent risk in any decision made. So much that is not controllable can go wrong. The other reason is the amateurish approach to the task across the AFL in general. Most recruiters rely on outdated methods, that doom them to repeat the mistakes of the past. There is too much imitation and not much innovation.

Having some experience in the area and having had the privilege of watching a couple of major league sports from overseas go about it, I can only say our methods in many areas are positively prehistoric. Money, of course is a factor and always will be, given that our sport is so minor in the overall scheme of things. So much relies on subjective opinion and on narrow "windows" of observation and testing.

The sad truth is, though, you could sack your whole recruiting department and just ask shifter, or Emma, or Burgatron, who they'd pick and in reality, you wouldn't do much worse. I'll never forget the private ridicule Geelong copped when they drafted Andrew Mackie and again, when they took Harry Taylor. They went the unconventional route in both instances and reaped the rewards. I wonder if their "unconventional" approach had anything to do with their 3 premierships and the fact they are the only team not to finish bottom 4 since the introduction of the draft?

[plugger66]

he certainly had more misses than hits

As has every recruiter.

Too true, plugger. The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly, the predictive nature of the discipline means there is inherent risk in any decision made. So much that is not controllable can go wrong. The other reason is the amateurish approach to the task across the AFL in general. Most recruiters rely on outdated methods, that doom them to repeat the mistakes of the past. There is too much imitation and not much innovation.

Having some experience in the area and having had the privilege of watching a couple of major league sports from overseas go about it, I can only say our methods in many areas are positively prehistoric. Money, of course is a factor and always will be, given that our sport is so minor in the overall scheme of things. So much relies on subjective opinion and on narrow "windows" of observation and testing.

The sad truth is, though, you could sack your whole recruiting department and just ask shifter, or Emma, or Burgatron, who they'd pick and in reality, you wouldn't do much worse. I'll never forget the private ridicule Geelong copped when they drafted Andrew Mackie and again, when they took Harry Taylor. They went the unconventional route in both instances and reaped the rewards. I wonder if their "unconventional" approach had anything to do with their 3 premierships and the fact they are the only team not to finish bottom 4 since the introduction of the draft?

I agree about Emma or Shifter being able to recruit for you but I think the difference between a good and poor recruiter or maybe even the amount of money used on recruiting is the players like Mackie or taylor or even Fisher or Jimmy. Anyone can take Rooy but others go for Ball when Judd was available or 30 clubs pass on Joey but our recruiters see something in him. I have no idea how amateurish recruiting is now but I do know recruiters do get a set for or against players just like any other person and that can be very costly.

[Freebird]

WW were saints laughed at when we took howard 2nd round..other clubs not expected to select him maybe dogs as rookie

[Dave McNamara]

he certainly had more misses than hits

As has every recruiter.

Having some experience in the area and having had the privilege of watching a couple of major league sports from overseas go about it, I can only say our methods in many areas are positively prehistoric. Money, of course is a factor and always will be, given that our sport is so minor in the overall scheme of things. So much relies on subjective opinion and on narrow "windows" of observation and testing.

The sad truth is, though, you could sack your whole recruiting department and just ask shifter, or Emma, or Burgholt, or James Rose, or Mart who they'd pick and in reality, you wouldn't do much worse. I'll never forget the private ridicule Geelong copped when they drafted Andrew Mackie and again, when they took Harry Taylor.

Agree also re everyone having misses. At least in the Maxie example we had a major 'hit', and Effn'dum missed three outta' three.

FWIW, I rate really Taylor - very good key defender, and also plays very well up forward when needed. Mackie though is an overrated loud-mouth, who has been allowed to look better than he is through the good fortune of playing in a strong side, and thus rarely having had to stand a topline forward.

WW... I know this is a broad and subjective question to assess, but just how much better do you think are the results of those major league recruiters, c/f us here in the AFL? And more money aside, what significant techniques do they use that we could be looking at?

I can see your point re those replacements for the recruiting department that you named when it comes to the asessment of the higher/better known draft prospects. I wonder though, re the spotting of those hidden obscure gems...?

As another poster pointed out, would they have identified the likes of Sam Fisher, Arryon Sippos, James Gwilt, Rhys Stanley, the Tiprat, Peter Everitt, Justin Sweeny?

Conversely, what is their record re avoiding disasterous top 10 ten missses? Would they have helped (previously) the likes of the Tuggers and the Shockers, and (still ongoing ) the Dreamons? Ok, forget the Dreamons, even I could do better with my weegie board... and I don't even have a weegie board.


(Seriously, does anybody know why the Dreamons even bothered tanking? Everyone knows they just waste their draft picks anyway...)

[magnifisaint]

If you got to Wikipedia and have a look at the last 6 to 8 years then you can see how hit and misses we've had. Also you'll notice how many high draft picks don't make it and how many rookies have

[saintspremiers]

WW were saints laughed at when we took howard 2nd round..other clubs not expected to select him maybe dogs as rookie

That was idiotic and negligent recruiting.

It's fair to say we had NFI in our recruiting strategies for a couple of years.

Had it been just one year you'd say it was an aberration.

At least the last couple of years we seem to be on a better pathway.

[Saints43]

I spoke to JB about Caydn Beetham in about 2002 and asked him what was going on with him. JB just shrugged and said that he looked like a miss.
So I asked how we could get pick nine so wrong. He sort of said that you can't pick attitude... (And maybe ther weren't psych interviews at a draft camp - I can't remember)
JB said that we spent less than 1% of club income on recruitment. That he had pointed out to the board that the talent at the club was the basis for any opportunity to grow financially but had not been successful in having his budget increased.

[Little Dozer]

"elite athletes like Justin Koschitske"?

The f---?

[White Winmar]

Dave, the major sporting clubs overseas devote a lot of time and effort to studying and evaluating objective data. As in all sports, the subjective opinions of experienced scouts do count, but this is given nowhere near the credit as it is in AFL. The moneyball scenario gave the general public a view into alternative methods, which at first were ridiculed, then adopted quite widely.

One thing that surprised me was what I was told by an EPL scout. I know the circumstances of our draft prohibit it, but in the major European football leagues, football academies are the norm, with kids as young as 5, (yes, 5!) being signed on and placed in development programs. He was amazed that the AFL clubs only got to select mainly 18 year olds at their earliest convenience. He didn't know much about AFL, but one comment stuck with me. He said that in a game where kicking is so complicated, how on earth could you correct someone's technique if it was poor? He made the point they'd already been practising the wrong way for 15 years and there was little or no hope of undoing the "damage".

He'd also heard of our kicking and ball handling drills at the draft camps and he described them as laughably simplistic and completely useless when it came to assessing a player's ability in match conditions. I had to explain that our game was obsessed with the notion that ex players knew best and that anything with the names Buckley, Lloyd and Johnson attached to them, must be good. He replied that any undergraduate biomechanics student could probably come up with a more effective test. I told him about the game scenario that the WCE came up with, that allowed players to follow the action unfold on a screen and make their predictions as to how the next passage would play out. He asked me how on earth that scenario simulated match conditions, given that the player was sitting still in an office watching a screen, and not out in the middle with all the confounding variables to contend with.

The last thing he raised was the use of advanced technologies in assessing players. Tests to determine the levels of stress hormone secretion, which provided a direct link to a player's tendency to become, "overaroused" and therefore make poor decisions. The high levels of stress hormones also made players more tense and therefore more prone to suffering soft tissue tears and strains. The overstressed types were also slower to recover from injuries and were more susceptible to recurrence. Muscle, bone and ligament structures were also studied for signs of strength, endurance or susceptibility. Scans are used to image an athlete's brain to gain a better understanding of how quickly and appropriately he responds to changes in the environment. The self-report style psych tests the AFL clubs largely use are outdated and poor predictors, to be frank.

The last piece of the puzzle is a new frontier and is mainly done in the "black market". It is genetic typing. This can reveal susceptibility as well as strengths, when it comes to assessing overall health and the risk of developing certain conditions. Unfortunately for someone like Jamie Cripps, this would've uncovered his type 1 diabetes (As would've a number of simple tests that really should be part of any due dilligence) and may have severely prejudiced his chances of being selected.

So while all these techniques and more are being practised and developed, some still argue there is no substitute for the bloke who's been watching kids run around for the last 40 years and has a "feel" for it. I beg to differ. For every strike, there are too many failures. At around $400K investment for each draftee or recruit chosen, and given how tight and competitive the market is, there is plenty of scope to do it better.

[Dave McNamara]

Thanks again WW for such an imformative and comprehensive reply. Heaps to be considered and lessons to learn.

Some more questions...

I take the point re the combination of the cost of assessment/eugenics/early intervention re skill deficiencies et al, and the lack of club academies to allow the clubs guaranteed access to any players they may have outlayed all those costs on. That said, don't they have drafts in their major sports in America?

The 'overarousal' testing concept is not only interestingly named, but could be incorporated as part of the injury management/rehab programmes of clubs.

For all of that though, do they still assess for the good 'ol basic of a bloke being a 'natural Aussie rules footballer'? You can teach blokes plenty, but nothing can really replace being a 'born footballer'(?) A great example of this would be Thomas Walsh. He pretty much 'has it all' but unless our game switches to the round ball...
Is this concept factored in somewhere with all the testing and screening, etc?

Do you know if our mob is looking at incorporating any of this stuff? Maybe out academy concept stems at least partially from some of these things that they are doing overseas?

Finally, for all the effort, science and sheer 'thoroughness'... how do their recruitment and 'talent realisation' success rates compare to ours?




PS: Who is 'trout'?

[saintbrat]

PS: Who is 'trout'?

Tony Elshaugh -Recruiting Manager- the guy who called out the numbers on Thursday- had baines sitting beside him Pelchen was at table behind.
http://www.saints.com.au/staff/tabid/5410/default.aspx

[samuraisaint]

Thanks again WW for such an imformative and comprehensive reply. Heaps to be considered and lessons to learn.

Some more questions...

I take the point re the combination of the cost of assessment/eugenics/early intervention re skill deficiencies et al, and the lack of club academies to allow the clubs guaranteed access to any players they may have outlayed all those costs on. That said, don't they have drafts in their major sports in America?

The 'overarousal' testing concept is not only interestingly named, but could be incorporated as part of the injury management/rehab programmes of clubs.

For all of that though, do they still assess for the good 'ol basic of a bloke being a 'natural Aussie rules footballer'? You can teach blokes plenty, but nothing can really replace being a 'born footballer'(?) A great example of this would be Thomas Walsh. He pretty much 'has it all' but unless our game switches to the round ball...
Is this concept factored in somewhere with all the testing and screening, etc?

Do you know if our mob is looking at incorporating any of this stuff? Maybe out academy concept stems at least partially from some of these things that they are doing overseas?

Finally, for all the effort, science and sheer 'thoroughness'... how do their recruitment and 'talent realisation' success rates compare to ours?




PS: Who is 'trout'?

Spot on with the call of Tommy Walsh, Dave. I always though that he would make it, even after the Swans got him, but after I saw his performance in the International Series and then his non-performance in the NAB Cup, I knew he wouldn't. And judging by the draft neither do the Swans any more.

[saintbrat]

The 'overarousal' testing concept is not only interestingly named, but could be incorporated as part of the injury management/rehab programmes of clubs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Do you know if our mob is looking at incorporating any of this stuff? Maybe out academy concept stems at least partially from some of these things that they are doing overseas?

Finally, for all the effort, science and sheer 'thoroughness'... how do their recruitment and 'talent realisation' success rates compare to ours?

interesting to listen to the sports science manager Simon Kearney who gives some insights into where that area is going particularly fatigue levels etc.
http://www.saints.com.au/multimedia/tab ... #playvideo