Drafting: Young or mature, it matters not

[saintsRrising]

Some are fixated on drafting kids as the way to success.
IMO this is outmoded thinking.

What matters is drafting/trading WELL....and that means value relative to cost of acquisition. Though one needs to also gain some players that become genuine stars too.


Look at both the Swans and Hawks at present. Key players for both in their structures are mature players secured from various sources.

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Pelchen and our recruiters did very well in the last trade/draft period. We need another out=perform this coming period.

Just chasing kids with our picks is IMO not the best way forward. But rather a blend which includes trading for more mature players of the exact times we need.

Get it right and and we can improve markedly. Get it wrong, then sliding more beckons.

[stinger]

Some are fixated on drafting kids as the way to success.
IMO this is outmoded thinking.

What matters is drafting/trading WELL....and that means value relative to cost of acquisition. Though one needs to also gain some players that become genuine stars too.


Look at both the Swans and Hawks at present. Key players for both in their structures are mature players secured from various sources.

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Pelchen and our recruiters did very well in the last trade/draft period. We need another out=perform this coming period.

Just chasing kids with our picks is IMO not the best way forward. But rather a blend which includes trading for more mature players of the exact times we need.

Get it right and and we can improve markedly. Get it wrong, then sliding more beckons.

we have a big gap around the 22-26 year olds...mainly due to lyon's poor recruiting and trading away our early picks.....

[gringo]

Agree with both, we need some guys like Saad, Dunell and Milera to come in this year. I have a feeling we will upgrade Curran and probably pick on of Cooke or Cockie even. Both mature aged guys who could get a senior game. Hope we use our early pick on some quality kid then pick the eyes out of what ever else is available.

[stinger]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/c ... 26cgw.html

what about this guy sr....

[mr six o'clock]

I want to see drafted 10 year players !
So if someone is 22 -24 and are good enough , so be it .
as long as they are still good enough to be playing at 32 !

[gringo]

I want to see drafted 10 year players !
So if someone is 22 -24 and are good enough , so be it .
as long as they are still good enough to be playing at 32 !

I wouldn't mind a Burgoyne type guy for 5 years or so.

[Gershwin]

I'm of the view that our 1st draft pick (and 2nd if Goddard leaves) must be the best young player available in the draft - regardless of the position they play. Later picks can address weaknesses in our list which clearly exist in the area of Ruck and Key Position Back.
I'd like to know how Lever and Staley are progressing - I think that will influence drafting/trading strategy.

[St Ick]

I want to see drafted 10 year players !
So if someone is 22 -24 and are good enough , so be it .
as long as they are still good enough to be playing at 32 !

I wouldn't mind a Burgoyne type guy for 5 years or so.

I want to see drafted 10 year players !
So if someone is 22 -24 and are good enough , so be it .
as long as they are still good enough to be playing at 32 !

I wouldn't mind a Burgoyne type guy for 5 years or so.

Burgoyne is class, I would be happy to get class. Last year we went with untapped talent from outside AFL which worked a treat. This year we had most of the recycled AFL players we had recruited in prior years either not there or playing for Sandy. Thats my arguement, dont mind mature, but Im not interested in fringe/discarded players like Polo, Gamble, Birss, Pattison, Peake.

The ones that worked have been Dempster and Gram (both very young with upside when traded) and Schneids who is classy.

That is where my thoughts on kids comes into it, I would rather get a kid with a deficiency in his game as a rookie than another clubs mature aged discard with a flaw in his game.

The other thing is that I've noticed that players who want out like Gram, Burgoyne, Gunston, Judd are obviously a much better option than players who are happily given away. Judge it by the clubs reaction when they say they want to walk (Nick Stevens/Jack Gunston/Luke Ball).

[kos]

It all good to chase classy players but when u let them walk from your club it hurts ie ball and Goddard.
You don't see the hawthorns and collingwood a do this.

[bigcarl]

Some are fixated on drafting kids as the way to success.
IMO this is outmoded thinking. What matters is drafting/trading WELL....and that means value relative to cost of acquisition. Though one needs to also gain some players that become genuine stars too.

Agree. Melbourne has shown the perils of putting too much faith in drafting kids who may or may not come on.

Of course you need to grab the best available young talent in the draft, but the Swans and Hawthorn have shown the value of casting a wider eye for talent including mature types.

IMO we are in good hands with Pelchen and Watters and I don't see the need for us to "bottom out" to become contenders again.

[gringo]

It all good to chase classy players but when u let them walk from your club it hurts ie ball and Goddard.
You don't see the hawthorns and collingwood a do this.

Mc carthy, Mc Glynn and Kennedy might show otherwise -all clubs have hits and misses. Sometimes it's better to just keep going with some strategy to worry about what others are doing.

I believe list management is key, if you can improve your list to be strong in most areas you will create a good team. It's better to have 17 middle tier players of solid ability and 5 very good players than 5 superstars and the rest plodders. the good lists have very little weak spots. We ran out around the 22nd player on the list so when injuries came finals time too little were left to do the work.

[saintsRrising]

Indeed.

A lack of a true FB cost us dear this year, and that one thing probably cost us playing finals this year. The lack of a back-up ruck this year was also odd.

However it is also hard to restructure a list in just one year. So it may well be that Pelchen was just not that concerned about success this year....and instead just concerned himself with getting some of what he wanted in Year 1, with more to come in Years 2/3

The Saad/Milera trade for a 3 pick downgrade looks set to be ranked as inspired in years to come.

[MC Gusto]

I agree with the op and am not fussed on 10 year or not. Look at gardi vs Blake. 5yr vs10 yr. not bagging Blake he was a very loyal servant and a dependable player in his later years. Gardi was never going to be a 10 yr player but was perfect for the teams deficiency at the time and had a huge impact.

[noob]

Problem is quality players won't come to st.kilda if they think we are not going to be in flag contention anymore.

[St Ick]

Problem is quality players won't come to st.kilda if they think we are not going to be in flag contention anymore.

True, I'm not sure how the AFL can work a fair and balanced competition into a FA arguement. Strong teams and clubs will just get stronger IMO.

I understand people think Sydney do an amazing job up there with recycled players just like the reputation we had which is partially true. But Armstrong, Morton, Seaby, Bradshaw, Walsh etc prove that its probably only 50/50 at best when opting to plug holes and they are more expensive. Kennedy, Mumford, Jolly and McGlynn to an extent would still be considered promising kids when they went to the Swans.

[plugger66]

Problem is quality players won't come to st.kilda if they think we are not going to be in flag contention anymore.

True, I'm not sure how the AFL can work a fair and balanced competition into a FA arguement. Strong teams and clubs will just get stronger IMO.

I understand people think Sydney do an amazing job up there with recycled players just like the reputation we had which is partially true. But Armstrong, Morton, Seaby, Bradshaw, Walsh etc prove that its probably only 50/50 at best when opting to plug holes and they are more expensive. Kennedy, Mumford, Jolly and McGlynn to an extent would still be considered promising kids when they went to the Swans.

Dont agree about the FA thing. Good clubs wont have the money in the salary cap unless they have come up really quick with a young list or are an older club like Geelong and some stars have retired. It is more likely the medium and lower clubs will have the money and if a player is the type that wants to leave then he may also be the type who wants to leave for the best offer. Wasnt Mitch Clark going to leave Brisbane last year so he could go home. It is funny how going loses interest when a bottom club offers a huge amount of money.

[saintsRrising]

Problem is quality players won't come to st.kilda if they think we are not going to be in flag contention anymore.

Ah but what is quality????

I assume you mean existing "stars".

Saad for my money is a quality pick-up. Had a great first year.
If they can coach him to do the team things better and to kick goals on the run then may even become a star rather than just a handy player.
Zac filled a need when we got him, and that is the point that not all players you pick up have to be stars.

You need to build a team of 22 players with some extra for depth. While you would like 22 stars, it is not going to happen.

Part of good list management is to endeavour to not have any glaring weaknesses. Yes it is very much to try and gain future stars, but if that is the only focus then you get the recruiting that the Saints had in the early naughties.

So recruiting will be a blend. Some will be great young talent, some will be unrecognised more mature talent, and some may be good talent that cannot get a regular first 22 gig at there existing clubs (ie M.ummford and Kennedy).

When Pelchen hada pick...regardless of where it is I would want him assessing what value he can gain with respect to the needs of our team.

A player ready to go with perhaps only 5 years left may well be a better pick up than a young "star" who may or may not make it and who may play anywhere from 3 games to 300.

However just as with drafting kids, you can get more mature picks wrong too. Either can be done badly or well.

But is this very professional era of when good players by and large do not retire early, and where players coming into the AFL late will want to play for as long as possible to make good money, the Saints need to be casting our net broadly.

Our 2013 FB may well be playing in the WAFL or SANFL this year....or WCE or PA. For an important structural position like this where we already have a strong supporting cast of other defenders there is no need to recruit a kid as future FB and have our defence in disarray for 4 years while we wait for him to grow up.

[saintsRrising]

Churn, churn churn.....

We need to be sifting players through our list.

If we trade some early picks, then yes you will want to pretty sure that they will be able to deliver 5 years of good value.

But later picks, and rookie pics can be used to cycle through players.....some young, some slightly mature that have never played AFL (the Barlows, the Saads, Mileras)...and some that have not made it at their first AFL Clubs (the Hales, Guerra's etc).

In recent years I think we have actually done a lot better from the retreads than any other group. Also please remember that many of these players cost very little re draft cost, and so if they do not work out, then they have not cost a lot.

Gardiner was one of two players effectively gained for pick 43...so was cheap.
King was taken for 100 odd, and so was basically a great back-up for that price.


However it is important to understand that times and recruiting needs have changed. Lyon had a certain gameplan, and in that era it was often enough to recruit players that could assist in that gameplan.

Football has evolved, and so the type of player that we need has largely changed (except for FB and ruck!!!!!!!!!!!!!). That will also see a different blend of recycled players. We need more of the Schneider type who are good ball users, and less of the Polos who have had hard bodies, but poor footskills.

[Saints43]

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Which mature aged players we picked up almost secured us a flag?

[dragit]

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Which mature aged players we picked up almost secured us a flag?

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, Peake were all playing in a grand final side that was leading deep in to the last quarter...

[joffaboy]

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Which mature aged players we picked up almost secured us a flag?

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, Peake were all playing in a grand final side that was leading deep in to the last quarter...

yeah, but apart from those 5

[saintsRrising]

The Saints have also done well in recent years with the mature players we have secured, and indeed should have but didn't have secured a flag or two on the back of it.

Which mature aged players we picked up almost secured us a flag?

The context of my OP was mature being anyone that has been passed over ina draft already...ie not the kids.
In 2010:

Gardiner, Dempster, Schneider, Peake

Plus add Gram, Milne,Ray,Dawson

And a player who was mature as in not drafted as a kid: Jones

= Nine Players




in 2009:

Gram, Dawson,Jones, Milne, Ray, Schneider, Gardiner, King, Dempster = 9 players


It is also worth noting that the Cats needed another key back, and even though their drafting of kids record was superb, they surprised many with the mature aged pick of Harry Taylor who had spent three seasons, and played 49 games for East Fremantle in the WAFL. If the Cats had drafted a kid Roo may well have had a better GF in 2009, and who knows who may have then won the game.

Hary is a good example of where our next FB may spring from.

[noob]

What is our best bet going into the draft? Have we narrowed it down on who we think we might take with our first rounder?

[rexy]

Think the thing is you have to have some courage, ie we have fisher dempster gwilt Blake simpkin Clarke and maybe even sippos who can all play medium to tall kp back but none are a genuine fb, also have Milne Schneider millera and saad who are small forwards but none genuine mids! These are to areas we could look to trade a quality payer to help fill our needs!cant just trade the weakest link though, I would consider trading gwilt or Schneider or both for the right peice!

[saintsRrising]

Think the thing is you have to have some courage, ie we have fisher dempster gwilt Blake simpkin Clarke and maybe even sippos who can all play medium to tall kp back but none are a genuine fb, also have Milne Schneider millera and saad who are small forwards but none genuine mids! These are to areas we could look to trade a quality payer to help fill our needs!cant just trade the weakest link though, I would consider trading gwilt or Schneider or both for the right peice!

Good points.
Would Sydney be in the GF without Kennedy and Mummy? Equally where might the saints have finished with a reasonable full-back and one more quality mid with good footskills....or even just getting Stanley on the park fora whole year and firing.

The Hawks too have gained some important structural players. Gibson while undersized really holds together the small Hawks backline. Hale, Gunson and Burgoyne fill needs.