Where are the umpire apologists tonight?

[maverick]

A decision like that simply cannot do anything other than affect the result.

doesn't the same apply the other way? assume he was unsighted, but it looked like milne might have made contact. what if he doesn't blow the whistle, the saints kick the goal, and then the replay shows that milne hit harry in the face? exactly the same story applies, the result has been affected, just the other way around.

he's f***ed if he does, f***ed if he doesn't.

If he's unsighted he can't pay it, he can't guess, simple as that.
A missed free kick is frustrating, an obvious error paid is another.

[tony74]

Umpire board have just admitted the O'brien free kick was unwarranted.

[lennys norm]

The AFL are absolutely desparate for a VIC club to make top 2, so to avoid the unpalatable scenario of 3 out of 4 finals in the opening week being interstate.
Filth are their best bet, along with Dorks of getting to top 2 and thus allowing another one at home.
Umps are "instructed" accordingly

[Thinline]

A decision like that simply cannot do anything other than affect the result.

doesn't the same apply the other way? assume he was unsighted, but it looked like milne might have made contact. what if he doesn't blow the whistle, the saints kick the goal, and then the replay shows that milne hit harry in the face? exactly the same story applies, the result has been affected, just the other way around.

he's f***ed if he does, f***ed if he doesn't.

If he's unsure, he simply can't blow his whistle: so I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean?

Take Fri night Hawks game. Rioli had Duncan cold holding ball 10 out dead in front Hawks in lead. NO whistle, one can only assume because ump wasn't sure and you HAVE to respect that. Eminently more justifiable situation.

Saints game, he guessed and or suffered from itchy trigger whistle. Either way, wrong.

I don't often get all twisted about umps. This one has my nuts in a vice. Need ice bath.

[maverick]

A decision like that simply cannot do anything other than affect the result.

doesn't the same apply the other way? assume he was unsighted, but it looked like milne might have made contact. what if he doesn't blow the whistle, the saints kick the goal, and then the replay shows that milne hit harry in the face? exactly the same story applies, the result has been affected, just the other way around.

he's f***ed if he does, f***ed if he doesn't.

If he's unsure, he simply can't blow his whistle: so I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean?

Take Fri night Hawks game. Rioli had Duncan cold holding ball 10 out dead in front Hawks in lead. NO whistle, one can only assume because ump wasn't sure and you HAVE to respect that. Eminently more justifiable situation.

Saints game, he guessed and or suffered from itchy trigger whistle. Either way, wrong.

I don't often get all twisted about umps. This one has my nuts in a vice. Need ice bath.

100% agree on all of it

[Thinline]

Umps have officially conceded the error by the way.

[suss]

Umps have officially conceded the error by the way.

Can someone tell Fatrick?

And what about the rest of the wrong calls/no calls?

[Thinline]

Umps have officially conceded the error by the way.

I should have added 'so I've heard'.

[skeptic]

In the words of Sam Newman,

It's not the ones you don't pay but the ones you do pay

[sunsaint]

a wrong decision...
Show me ONE game where Stkilda players never make a mistake, then and only then will I demand the same level of perfection from umpires
if you truly believe that saints get shafted by the umpires, ask yourself this, why? What happens out on the field that makes umpires so anti our players in the red white & black.
And then ask yourself why does the club not complain about this bias?

Until that happens, and apologies to DrSpaceman for stealing his usual visual thunder

[gringo]

a wrong decision...
Show me ONE game where Stkilda players never make a mistake, then and only then will I demand the same level of perfection from umpires
if you truly believe that saints get shafted by the umpires, ask yourself this, why? What happens out on the field that makes umpires so anti our players in the red white & black.
And then ask yourself why does the club not complain about this bias?

Until that happens, and apologies to DrSpaceman for stealing his usual visual thunder

It's not just us, the umpires are directly resulting outcomes in close matches it seemed to correspond often to good odds - like the Port match. It may just be bad umpiring but if they are not even handed or at least trying to make the match free from bias and unusual decisions it lends itself to the look of corruption.

[plugger66]

a wrong decision...
Show me ONE game where Stkilda players never make a mistake, then and only then will I demand the same level of perfection from umpires
if you truly believe that saints get shafted by the umpires, ask yourself this, why? What happens out on the field that makes umpires so anti our players in the red white & black.
And then ask yourself why does the club not complain about this bias?

Until that happens, and apologies to DrSpaceman for stealing his usual visual thunder

It's not just us, the umpires are directly resulting outcomes in close matches it seemed to correspond often to good odds - like the Port match. It may just be bad umpiring but if they are not even handed or at least trying to make the match free from bias and unusual decisions it lends itself to the look of corruption.

You are truely funny. Now it seems all umpires are betting.

Funny that a Saints supporter can pick tthis up but the media, who love a beat up, have never ever mentioned it.

[Austinnn]

Umpires corrupt? Get real. Scott Watters is bang on. We want to get strong enough so that these inevitable setbacks don't lose us matches.

Why? Because like rain at a BBQ, like flies at a picnic, like someone on the bus stinking like they haven't washed in years, like clumsy metaphors in sparkling prose, there will always be things that are sent to test us.

Instead of whinging about the inevitable poor umpiring decisions, how about we discuss how we're 6th on the ladder in terms of Quarters Won and percentage, but find ourselves in 10th place? Because it's just easier to blame someone else. Thank god people at the club aren't doing that.

[gringo]

You are truely funny. Now it seems all umpires are betting.

Funny that a Saints supporter can pick tthis up but the media, who love a beat up, have never ever mentioned it.

Like when Grant Thomas as a commentator stood up against poor umpiring and SEN was told to lose the fat man or lose your broadcasting and access to the AFL. The media know how to tow the line now. Like the media were all over the racing race fixing? In the next few years the AFL will have a match fixing scandal. I will try to find this and bump it when it happens.

[plugger66]

You are truely funny. Now it seems all umpires are betting.

Funny that a Saints supporter can pick tthis up but the media, who love a beat up, have never ever mentioned it.

Like when Grant Thomas as a commentator stood up against poor umpiring and SEN was told to lose the fat man or lose your broadcasting and access to the AFL. The media know how to tow the line now. Like the media were all over the racing race fixing? In the next few years the AFL will have a match fixing scandal. I will try to find this and bump it when it happens.

I might bring this out every game for the next 20 years when it doesnt happen.

[gringo]

You are truely funny. Now it seems all umpires are betting.

Funny that a Saints supporter can pick tthis up but the media, who love a beat up, have never ever mentioned it.

Like when Grant Thomas as a commentator stood up against poor umpiring and SEN was told to lose the fat man or lose your broadcasting and access to the AFL. The media know how to tow the line now. Like the media were all over the racing race fixing? In the next few years the AFL will have a match fixing scandal. I will try to find this and bump it when it happens.

I might bring this out every game for the next 20 years when it doesnt happen.

Go for it dude, it may seem very irrelevant unless something occurs. That's the beauty of saying outrageous statements, you bring it up constantly and you seem like a deranged turd, while I deny it was ever said. I know how you work plugger.

[kalsaint]

a wrong decision...
Show me ONE game where Stkilda players never make a mistake, then and only then will I demand the same level of perfection from umpires
if you truly believe that saints get shafted by the umpires, ask yourself this, why? What happens out on the field that makes umpires so anti our players in the red white & black.
And then ask yourself why does the club not complain about this bias?

Until that happens, and apologies to DrSpaceman for stealing his usual visual thunder

I dont care for this at all.

Umpires make a mistake they can change the game result. You cant repair the players mistake on game day. Bad luck, its a skill error. There are ways to fix the bad decision by an umpire. The AFL just dont do it.

[kalsaint]

Umpires corrupt? Get real. Scott Watters is bang on. We want to get strong enough so that these inevitable setbacks don't lose us matches.

Why? Because like rain at a BBQ, like flies at a picnic, like someone on the bus stinking like they haven't washed in years, like clumsy metaphors in sparkling prose, there will always be things that are sent to test us.

Instead of whinging about the inevitable poor umpiring decisions, how about we discuss how we're 6th on the ladder in terms of Quarters Won and percentage, but find ourselves in 10th place? Because it's just easier to blame someone else. Thank god people at the club aren't doing that.

That's all true and should be followed through but this does escape the poor umpire decision making made at critical times in games. There are plenty of ways to fix this by the AFL dont and it stinks at times.

The ALF rule changes, speed of the game and lesser experienced umpires, interpretation changes all at a whim or carried out within one season is a bloodt joke and smacks of mismanagement. Yes, I dont blame the umpires, I blame the AFL for their continued and blatant disregard imbalance for equal opportunity (unless in race or gender terms). Contributions here are the long and short impacts of their decisions. Draw changes, rule changes, inconsistent interpretations and rulings that change on a whim when they get it wrong. Not good enough for other " businesses" so why should it be good enough here?

Umpires believing that 80% correctness is good enough is not acceptable given the game changes and opportunities to fix this through technology. Umpires are only the symptom of piss poor and biased management.

[kalsaint]

Never ever ever is that a free in any context. Dont blame Kosi he put it exactly where it should have been. The umpire chose delibrately to decide a result and in short cheated. I said earlier in the week on here the umps bias would cost us and it proved correct. The sad thing is the call on Milne wasnt the worst. The infringments on Kosi in contests where far worse.[/quote]


Of course they cheat. How anyone would think that is beyond me but if if its makes you feel better go ahead. The kick from Kosi was far to rushed. maybe you werent at the ground but it was one on 5 when he kicked it. Milne was the one.[/quote]

Of course they dont knowlingly cheat but that decision was not a good one, not consistent from quarter to quarter during the game and certainly not consistent from game to game. It's that lack of consistency that grates at me and others on this forum.

Richo pointed out in the commentary that Kosi's earlier touch couldn't be paid as you would be paying them a 100 times a game. Technically you could call that free on Milney but why change the standard at that point in the game? That would reek of incompetnce interms of the umpires job, that is, to remain consistent. If the free is not obvious why call it. This miss at least 50 frees every game based on rules so why start in the last 20 seconds of the game and potentially influence a game result?

Silly thing to do in my opinion and the guy should therefore be dropped as a player would be if he underperforms.

Lets face it, mistakes like misread goals or points are now addressed by technology. Why not ensure this occurs in every facet of uncertainty in the last 10 minutes of each game to avoid the risk of umpire decision swaying results? The AFL are pretty slow to react to this sort of Equal Opportunity but stamp down hard in other areas of Equality. Once again, inconsistence. This makes the umpired job very difficult and really isnt acceptable.

[plugger66]

Umpires corrupt? Get real. Scott Watters is bang on. We want to get strong enough so that these inevitable setbacks don't lose us matches.

Why? Because like rain at a BBQ, like flies at a picnic, like someone on the bus stinking like they haven't washed in years, like clumsy metaphors in sparkling prose, there will always be things that are sent to test us.

Instead of whinging about the inevitable poor umpiring decisions, how about we discuss how we're 6th on the ladder in terms of Quarters Won and percentage, but find ourselves in 10th place? Because it's just easier to blame someone else. Thank god people at the club aren't doing that.

That's all true and should be followed through but this does escape the poor umpire decision making made at critical times in games. There are plenty of ways to fix this by the AFL dont and it stinks at times.

The ALF rule changes, speed of the game and lesser experienced umpires, interpretation changes all at a whim or carried out within one season is a bloodt joke and smacks of mismanagement. Yes, I dont blame the umpires, I blame the AFL for their continued and blatant disregard imbalance for equal opportunity (unless in race or gender terms). Contributions here are the long and short impacts of their decisions. Draw changes, rule changes, inconsistent interpretations and rulings that change on a whim when they get it wrong. Not good enough for other " businesses" so why should it be good enough here?

Umpires believing that 80% correctness is good enough is not acceptable given the game changes and opportunities to fix this through technology. Umpires are only the symptom of piss poor and biased management.

Just a few things wrong with this. They arent trying to speed up the game, they are trying to make it continuous. And how can the AFL fix umpire errors? The clubs cant fix player errors even though they try about 6 times a week. Also umpires work on around 85% correct not 80%. And how can you fix umpire errors through technology. Please dont tell me you want the game stopped to look at frees. Now that is truly funny if that is what you are thinking. And what has biased management got to do with umpiring decisions. I think you have a few threads mixed up.

[saintspremiers]

Get your hand off it plugs. Why do you love the umpiring frat so deeply?

Do you or did you desire to be an AFL ump??

Clearly something is wrong and needs fixing.

As for Watters not complaining I guess he didn't want to pay the fine. Gotta love Cypriot Hitler's censorship of opinion eh? Or I guess your happy with that also.

[Life Long Saint]

And how can the AFL fix umpire errors? The clubs cant fix player errors even though they try about 6 times a week. Also umpires work on around 85% correct not 80%.

85% error rate is totally unacceptable. I work in IT and if we worked at that error rate then we'd still be using pencil & paper for complex calculations.
Imagine the police or doctors working to that figure?
Or even your friendly tradesman...Would you live in a house or drive a car that was only 85% right?

Comparing the umpires error rate to the players efficiency is not relevant.
Players are required to execute gross and fine motor skills with an irregular shaped object in often wet and slippery conditions with a tremendous amount of physical pressure.
Umpires need to look at a situation and decide whether a rule has been broken. It is not that hard! It is infinitely easier than actually playing the game.
What the umpires need to do first and foremost is stop guessing. If they don't see something then say so. 10% of errors would go with that one adjustment.
Then you'd address why the umpires miss free kicks. Are they in the wrong position? Are there blind spots around contests where one of the three can't see? Do we need to add another field umpire and they each control a quadrant? All these questions could be addressed and errors reduced by becoming a professional body and investing in technology training aids to help them.

We simply can't accept a 15% error rate from the rule enforcers.

[Leo.J]

And how can the AFL fix umpire errors? The clubs cant fix player errors even though they try about 6 times a week. Also umpires work on around 85% correct not 80%.

85% error rate is totally unacceptable. I work in IT and if we worked at that error rate then we'd still be using pencil & paper for complex calculations.
Imagine the police or doctors working to that figure?
Or even your friendly tradesman...Would you live in a house or drive a car that was only 85% right?

Comparing the umpires error rate to the players efficiency is not relevant.
Players are required to execute gross and fine motor skills with an irregular shaped object in often wet and slippery conditions with a tremendous amount of physical pressure.
Umpires need to look at a situation and decide whether a rule has been broken. It is not that hard! It is infinitely easier than actually playing the game.
What the umpires need to do first and foremost is stop guessing. If they don't see something then say so. 10% of errors would go with that one adjustment.
Then you'd address why the umpires miss free kicks. Are they in the wrong position? Are there blind spots around contests where one of the three can't see? Do we need to add another field umpire and they each control a quadrant? All these questions could be addressed and errors reduced by becoming a professional body and investing in technology training aids to help them.

We simply can't accept a 15% error rate from the rule enforcers.

I agree 85% is not good enough.

I think you'll find that the umpires generally get sucked in by the crowd, they tend to give more frees to the home teams with the with a clear crowd advantage, and miss more frees in the same way.

And I think some get off on the crowd cheering a decision, they are only human, but I wreckon it happens, and if they acknowledge it they might be able to train so as to not be effected by the crowd.

[plugger66]

And how can the AFL fix umpire errors? The clubs cant fix player errors even though they try about 6 times a week. Also umpires work on around 85% correct not 80%.

85% error rate is totally unacceptable. I work in IT and if we worked at that error rate then we'd still be using pencil & paper for complex calculations.
Imagine the police or doctors working to that figure?
Or even your friendly tradesman...Would you live in a house or drive a car that was only 85% right?

Comparing the umpires error rate to the players efficiency is not relevant.
Players are required to execute gross and fine motor skills with an irregular shaped object in often wet and slippery conditions with a tremendous amount of physical pressure.
Umpires need to look at a situation and decide whether a rule has been broken. It is not that hard! It is infinitely easier than actually playing the game.
What the umpires need to do first and foremost is stop guessing. If they don't see something then say so. 10% of errors would go with that one adjustment.
Then you'd address why the umpires miss free kicks. Are they in the wrong position? Are there blind spots around contests where one of the three can't see? Do we need to add another field umpire and they each control a quadrant? All these questions could be addressed and errors reduced by becoming a professional body and investing in technology training aids to help them.

We simply can't accept a 15% error rate from the rule enforcers.

You arent seriously comparing a job in an office or on a building site to umpiring. Please tell me that is a joke. Do 30 players run around a building site and get in the way of tradesmen. 85% is very good. Obviously just about impossible to get better due to the nature of the game. Even when commentators watch the game on TV one says a decision is wrong and the other says it is right and that is from above the play. Umpires are at ground level and a player can get in the way, they could see it differently to how it is or it can be subjective. Most decisions in the AFL subjective because of the rules. You have a second or two to make up your mind with crowds screaming, which shouldnt matter but obviously can, and because of things in and out of your control you make mistakes. You say players have physical pressure. Can you tell me why a good kick misses goals from 30 metres out dead in front after a mark. No physical pressure there. Surely every player should be above 85% for those kicks. I will guess and say they arent.

I would love some of the whingers on here to one day umpire a game and realise how hard it can be. Obviously I know the umpires have 100's of more hours of practice but at least you would get an idea about umpiring. I know a few dont like Finey on here but he admits he was an umpire basher from way back until he did a few games at our club. Now he at least sees why it is so hard to do even if during a game he continues to have a go at them.

[stinger]

i don't know why the maggot made such a mistake....and a mistake it certainly was, as verified by the afl itself.....was it cheating, incompetence, a filth supporter by birth or just merely swayed by a baying crowd??....my guess is that he has the same dislike of milne shared by the general non saints footballing public.....in any event he cost us a draw and a possible chance for a win....


i see from re-quoted responses that the normal afl apologists say the free(technically) was there.......WRONG.....it wasn't...shows what they know about our game.....nothing...and one even claims to be a maggot himself ffs....



"An AFL spokesman said the Monday review of umpires' decisions concluded ''the free was unwarranted, and should not have been paid''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/c ... z22phCCyPj