We have 4 players who are far too good for VFL...

[Austinnn]

...but sad to say, not quite good enough to be consistently decent AFL footballers. Or at least not enough for St Kilda.

They show flashes, but then again even Phil Collins has had a couple of good songs. Or for the cult film lovers, even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.

in order of games played:

Brett Peake,
Raphael Clarke
Dean Polo
Beau Wilkes

hurts to say it cos I like those guys, and could see them doing well in the right environment.

There are others who I think could probably be in the same bag, but they just provide enough to make it, or they play a much needed role; talkin' 'bout...

Jason Blake
Justin Koschitzke
Farren Ray
Jason Gram
Sam Gilbert
Clinton Jones

They should probably stay but we should aim for them to be squad players, not automatic selections. I mean make sure that we have 22 better players than them ready to play. I recognise their importance to the team, but we need to find better players who can do these roles equally well.

The rest are players that excell in their starring roles and despite deficiencies in other areas, are walk-ins due to their consistency (ie their off games are infrequent), or players that are walk-ins to any team despite not being perfect,

Lenny Hayes
Stephen Milne
Nick Riewoldt
Nick Dal Santo
Brendon Goddard
Adam Schneider
Leigh Montagna
Sam Fisher
Sean Dempster
James Gwilt
David Armitage
Jarryn Geary

or players without enough experience to make the call just yet or haven't even made the grade in the VFL

Ben McEvoy
Jack Steven
Rhys Stanley
Tom Simpkin
Arryn Siposs
Terry Milera
Jamie Cripps
Ahmed Saad
Jack Newnes
Tom Ledger
Sam Dunell
Nicholas Winmar
Jay Lever
Sam Crocker
Sebastian Ross
Jimmy Webster
Daniel Markworth

The question is with those 4 initial players, can we trade them to Gold Coast or GWS? They offer experience (the first two have GF experience) and generally a good attitude. If we could offer 2 for 1 swaps - one of their kids with potential for a couple of our Lyon-Special role players - then everyone wins surely?

Raph and Dean to toil away in Blacktown, Brett and Beau to enjoy the surf in the Gold Coast? Who could we get from those expansion teams for that price? (This is a serious question, please don't bother with faceceous replies like N.O. Body or Kevin Sheedy's boot studder or whatever.)

Feel free to argue. Please don't call me a fool though, or I might just take it to heart and cry.
Acceptable words: wrong, disagree, deluded, misguided, blind, ungentlemanly, unkind, inconsistent
Unacceptable words: stupid, moronic, fool, softc*ck, f***wit, nincompoop and anything that you wouldn't say to anyone's face unless you wanted to fight them.

[SainterK]

I think they need 'just one more night'

[ralphsmith]

Raph Clarke is terrible and should not ever play senior AFL unless injuries ravage us

[Austinnn]

No! Do NOT turn this into a roll call of s*** Phil Collins song-based puns. I can feel it coming!
















in the air tonight oh lord

[bergholt]

Raph and Dean to toil away in Blacktown, Brett and Beau to enjoy the surf in the Gold Coast? Who could we get from those expansion teams for that price?

do you really think sheeds or mckenna would want to pay for them? they've got plenty of kids who are probably around vfl level. none of these four seem likely to be members of the first premiership sides at either gcs or gws so why bother giving up anything for them?

consider andrew mcqualter. he was picked up for nothing as a backup and as such has played just four games for gcs. and there'll be another fifty-plus delisted afl players hanging around looking for another chance up north. i just can't see why a coach would trade for players no-one else would want.

also, sussudio.

[SainterK]

No! Do NOT turn this into a roll call of s*** Phil Collins song-based puns. I can feel it coming!

If they make it back in the side, it will be against all odds

Last one I promise!

[villasaint]

ferguson has impressed me in the two's.

Peaks, polo, winmar, archer, Blake(only because of age) should be gone come the end of the year.

Wilkes gets another year at least to help up forward if roo goes down.

Raph may get one more year as a back up player.

Ray has impressed me when he gets a go and should be right for next year.

[Teflon]

This is a really good post and an approach I share (but have said badly on occasions!)

To me its about how/where we get better? You have eloquently broken them down into categories (not sure Id have Geary in the "excells" in his role just yet..) but the rest looks good. Good news is IMO there is enough experience in our "elite" group that some of the "show enoughs just to make it" group could be replaced as you say to improve the 22. Pray there is enough development in the kids that their upside is greater thane whats on offer from the "just enough to make it".

[Austinnn]

Just realised the huge flaw in my trade idea.

The reason that these players do so well in the VFL and so poorly in the AFL is the level of the opposition. If they struggle against the Hawks in a Saints jumper, they'll struggle against the Hawks in a Gold Coast jumper. d'oh.

So it's sad to say, but I think they should remain excellent VFL/WAFL/SANFL players.

re Ferguson, I deliberately didn't include rookies, but I agree with your assessment(s).

[southernsaint]

A very interesting topic and one ive been thinking about especially given that the next two drafts are suppose to be of very high quality. How many kids will the club want to draft . how many of our rookies will they want to promote. The list manager is going to earn his monry this year. Given that sheeds has indicated that G.W.S. might be after some more mature players to help the kids come through could we package some players and our first round pick for the 2 pre-draft selections that they must trade this year.

[1965 Saint]

No! Do NOT turn this into a roll call of s*** Phil Collins song-based puns. I can feel it coming!

Surely they will be after...... 'the Brazilian'














in the air tonight oh lord

[Harves Man]

Hi Austinnn

I really like this 2 for one swap idea. If we gave them 2 players that always tried hard each week, they'd be getting Two Hearts. It could be the spark of a new Genesis for the Gold Coast, and their experience could lead them away from the Land of Confusion that they are now.

As for the currency of players like Peake, Raph, Polo, etc, I think Gold Coast have just got to take them on Face Value.

In fact, I can just picture Gary Ablet on a future premiership dias, saying "Geez, Take a Look at me Now!" and then "I've been waiting for this moment, all my life".

It get quite hot on the Gold Coast, so their social club has a No Jacket Required policy.

Sorry.

[Con Gorozidis]

Hi Austinnn

I really like this 2 for one swap idea. If we gave them 2 players that always tried hard each week, they'd be getting Two Hearts. It could be the spark of a new Genesis for the Gold Coast, and their experience could lead them away from the Land of Confusion that they are now.

As for the currency of players like Peake, Raph, Polo, etc, I think Gold Coast have just got to take them on Face Value.

In fact, I can just picture Gary Ablet on a future premiership dias, saying "Geez, Take a Look at me Now!" and then "I've been waiting for this moment, all my life".

It get quite hot on the Gold Coast, so their social club has a No Jacket Required policy.

Sorry.

I think Sam Gilbert has a "take me home" clause in his contract which is essentially a get out clause in the event a trade can be made with the gold coast. It doesnt apply to any other club.

[Harves Man]

Hi Austinnn

I really like this 2 for one swap idea. If we gave them 2 players that always tried hard each week, they'd be getting Two Hearts. It could be the spark of a new Genesis for the Gold Coast, and their experience could lead them away from the Land of Confusion that they are now.

As for the currency of players like Peake, Raph, Polo, etc, I think Gold Coast have just got to take them on Face Value.

In fact, I can just picture Gary Ablet on a future premiership dias, saying "Geez, Take a Look at me Now!" and then "I've been waiting for this moment, all my life".

It get quite hot on the Gold Coast, so their social club has a No Jacket Required policy.

Sorry.

I think Sam Gilbert has a "take me home" clause in his contract which is essentially a get out clause in the event a trade can be made with the gold coast. It doesnt apply to any other club.

Yes, but we're safe there, "coz he can't remember". Sorry - the hits keep coming!

[Austinnn]

Hi Austinnn

I really like this 2 for one swap idea. If we gave them 2 players that always tried hard each week, they'd be getting Two Hearts. It could be the spark of a new Genesis for the Gold Coast, and their experience could lead them away from the Land of Confusion that they are now.

As for the currency of players like Peake, Raph, Polo, etc, I think Gold Coast have just got to take them on Face Value.

In fact, I can just picture Gary Ablet on a future premiership dias, saying "Geez, Take a Look at me Now!" and then "I've been waiting for this moment, all my life".

It get quite hot on the Gold Coast, so their social club has a No Jacket Required policy.

Sorry.

Apology not accepted. Your Collins references greatly displease me.

[groupie1]

That must be the most stupid, moronic, fool, softc*ck, f***wit, nincompoop excuse for a post I've ever seen. ha ha. just joking. I used to agree, bottom young teams can well use hard bodied reasonable footballers to usher them through games and protect them. But, if you think of Mini, Riscitelli, Mark Williams at Essendon, sometimes, the attitude thing is a problem. Sometimes, those blokes can look at it as a retirement. On the other hand, Stephen Powell at St Kilda shows how it can work well.

Your post is insightful, and i guess the gap in its logic is to turn the question around - if the Saints were a young team, would you really want to be trading aay possible stars for the likes of Beau Wilkes and Dean Polo?

[groupie1]

I actually reckon, to add to your point, that its not the Gold Coasts and GWSs that these kinds of players might appeal to, but the mid-range but still young clubs with little depth - Richmond comes to mind - that think they have a shot of taking their side into the eight but just need to top up with a few hardy experienced players. Polo would go great at Richmond, right now, for example, ironically. Peake would do well with the Doggies. Role players. If their attitude is right they can slot in nicely to a team for which they feel they can add something missing... as opposed to trying to fill in a void that is too big for them. So, I agree with you, we should be trying to trade them out, but to the Richmond/Bulldogs types.

[plugger66]

Hi Austinnn

I really like this 2 for one swap idea. If we gave them 2 players that always tried hard each week, they'd be getting Two Hearts. It could be the spark of a new Genesis for the Gold Coast, and their experience could lead them away from the Land of Confusion that they are now.

As for the currency of players like Peake, Raph, Polo, etc, I think Gold Coast have just got to take them on Face Value.

In fact, I can just picture Gary Ablet on a future premiership dias, saying "Geez, Take a Look at me Now!" and then "I've been waiting for this moment, all my life".

It get quite hot on the Gold Coast, so their social club has a No Jacket Required policy.

Sorry.

I think Sam Gilbert has a "take me home" clause in his contract which is essentially a get out clause in the event a trade can be made with the gold coast. It doesnt apply to any other club.

Never heard that ever. Was it in the paper or do you know someone who knows him?

[dragit]

'But seriously'… Phil Collins is the real nincompoop here…

The biggest problem with trying to offload our VFL stars to GC or GWS is that both of those sides will have to trim their lists in the next year or two (by 4 i think), therefor they are more likely to want to trade 2 'promising' young players for one 'good' (not polo or wilkes) player… someone like Gilbert.

I don't think we can expect to get anything in a trade for guys we picked up in the 6th round of the draft… To get anything good you have to give-up something good too (the great saad-milera heist excluded)

[Spinner]

I'd like to argue that Brett Peake is far too good for the VFL.

[Bernard Shakey]

From my observations at Sandy this year I'd have to say Peake and Polo are far from too good for VFL.

[stevie]

Phil isn't all that bad...well, his music is/was

But he was in 'A Hard Day's Night' FFS! That alone grants him some sort of credibility




on second thought, maybe not...

[fingers]

No! Do NOT turn this into a roll call of s*** Phil Collins song-based puns. I can feel it coming!

If they make it back in the side, it will be against all odds

Last one I promise!

There's the Genesis of an idea.

[bigcarl]

Ross Lyon's insistence that Raph was a lockdown defender has been to his detriment IMO. He's just not that sort of player. Winger/half forward or even tallish onballer I reckon.

[Austinnn]

From my observations at Sandy this year I'd have to say Peake and Polo are far from too good for VFL.

Hmm, perhaps you're right, but they seem to be doing consistently very well there at the moment, from reports. Perhaps they are pulling out all the stops to force a return to St Kilda. I haven't seen any VFL games this year, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge.

Big Carl, maybe you're right about Clarke, but since he has kept the same position under McPhee and Watters I'd say the only way we'll know for sure is if he moves or if our stocks in those areas are massively depleted. I know which scenario I'd prefer out of those two!