Season on a knife's edge

[desertsaint]

8th is a final and a notch on our belt, and the excitement of the season for at least one more week. 9th is disappointment.

[battye]

Best we can hope to finish is 7th.
But topsy turvy season. Top 12 - anyone can beat anyone pretty much on their day. There are no stand out sides.

but not in finals..Hawthorn, West coast and Pies will lift significantly in the finals and the others won't come close..

This St Kilda list is vastly experienced in finals. I wouldn't downplay the experience factor we have... meeting Collingwood in a final doesn't scare me. I'm more scared that we'll miss the top eight entirely, I don't think it will be a walk in the park to keep eighth spot.

[BigMart]

The Elimnation final losses of 1998 and 2006 were very important weren't they.

[Teflon]

IMO its not so clear cut as " we need 8th for sponsors and experience..."

I tend to agree with Mart.......8th is stuff all consolation prize for what we ought to be chasing and we wont win a flag this year....

Bigger question IMO is if thats true: CAN we win a flag with the current ageing core or has that boat entirely sailed for 13 and beyond? and if so....some big, hard calls will need to be made to make space for kids.

[plugger66]

IMO its not so clear cut as " we need 8th for sponsors and experience..."

I tend to agree with Mart.......8th is stuff all consolation prize for what we ought to be chasing and we wont win a flag this year....

Bigger question IMO is if thats true: CAN we win a flag with the current ageing core or has that boat entirely sailed for 13 and beyond? and if so....some big, hard calls will need to be made to make space for kids.

The point is 8th is always better than 9th. How anyone can argue any other way is amazing. I will say it again. Only arrogant supporters or people who havent followed us when we were crap wouldnt care about a final. I dont see how any final can hurt a club. It can only be a good thing.

[kosifantutti]

The Elimnation final losses of 1998 and 2006 were very important weren't they.

There were no elimination finals in 1998 but I see what you mean. No team was ever going to win the Premiership with just 13 wins for the season.

5 Adelaide 22 13 9 2172 1763 123.2 52
6 St Kilda 22 13 9 2148 2104 102.1 52

[Teflon]

IMO its not so clear cut as " we need 8th for sponsors and experience..."

I tend to agree with Mart.......8th is stuff all consolation prize for what we ought to be chasing and we wont win a flag this year....

Bigger question IMO is if thats true: CAN we win a flag with the current ageing core or has that boat entirely sailed for 13 and beyond? and if so....some big, hard calls will need to be made to make space for kids.

The point is 8th is always better than 9th. How anyone can argue any other way is amazing. I will say it again. Only arrogant supporters or people who havent followed us when we were crap wouldnt care about a final. I dont see how any final can hurt a club. It can only be a good thing.

Is it though?

I mean another way to look at 8th v 9th is what you expend to get it.

Lets say we play our "best" experienced side, bust our gut, sneak into 8 and get barrelled out week 1 like last year.

The downside I see is that we forego games for youth in doing this. Sure, we are playing some youth now but I suspect we're stuck in limbo a bit......we arent sure if this core has another shot at it or enough time to get kids up to a level where they genuinely can contribute before this core DEFINATELY has no more shots left...is sneaking into 8 worth it?

or

do you accept we arent building but rather sliding with our core (and i reckon ive started seeing even lenny's great early season form slip a little..along with Judds btw..) and simply shift priority to getting games into kids who deserve them or who can hold down a spot?

Before the hoary chestnut of "we cant just gift games..." gets thrown out, i actually reckon there are kids who could be in that side (even on rotation) who arent right now cause we havent yet made this call....kids including;

Leger
Newnes
Cripps
Curren?
Ross?

No doubt we are still playing players right now who will not be part of our next premiership at the expense of some of these, ITS WHY i think its a mistake if a player like Simpkin gets dropped the minute Blake is available....that to me is a waste, holds up Simpkins development for a player whose been a loyal servant, had 10 yrs but isnt the future...

[plugger66]

IMO its not so clear cut as " we need 8th for sponsors and experience..."

I tend to agree with Mart.......8th is stuff all consolation prize for what we ought to be chasing and we wont win a flag this year....

Bigger question IMO is if thats true: CAN we win a flag with the current ageing core or has that boat entirely sailed for 13 and beyond? and if so....some big, hard calls will need to be made to make space for kids.

The point is 8th is always better than 9th. How anyone can argue any other way is amazing. I will say it again. Only arrogant supporters or people who havent followed us when we were crap wouldnt care about a final. I dont see how any final can hurt a club. It can only be a good thing.

Is it though?

I mean another way to look at 8th v 9th is what you expend to get it.

Lets say we play our "best" experienced side, bust our gut, sneak into 8 and get barrelled out week 1 like last year.

The downside I see is that we forego games for youth in doing this. Sure, we are playing some youth now but I suspect we're stuck in limbo a bit......we arent sure if this core has another shot at it or enough time to get kids up to a level where they genuinely can contribute before this core DEFINATELY has no more shots left...is sneaking into 8 worth it?

or

do you accept we arent building but rather sliding with our core (and i reckon ive started seeing even lenny's great early season form slip a little..along with Judds btw..) and simply shift priority to getting games into kids who deserve them or who can hold down a spot?

Before the hoary chestnut of "we cant just gift games..." gets thrown out, i actually reckon there are kids who could be in that side (even on rotation) who arent right now cause we havent yet made this call....kids including;

Leger
Newnes
Cripps
Curren?
Ross?

No doubt we are still playing players right now who will not be part of our next premiership at the expense of some of these, ITS WHY i think its a mistake if a player like Simpkin gets dropped the minute Blake is available....that to me is a waste, holds up Simpkins development for a player whose been a loyal servant, had 10 yrs but isnt the future...

I havent said we change how we are giving young guys a go. i think we are doing it pretty well. You dont want to overboard with young guys and we also dont want to stop playing them because we may make the finals. All I was arguing is that a final is better than not playing in a final whether you are building or on the way down.

[Teflon]

Im not sure its that easy.......making a final is desirable but if you know your side is sliding and you need to regenerate with youth this surely needs to be factored into the effort to get there?

Anyway, I think youre agreeing in some way but sticking to the simplistic: better to play finals (which ofcourse it is....as long as you dont start selling the future to get there).

[Scollop]

Blake will be....and has been just as ineffective against most power forwards as Simpkin will.I think right now - from this point on - Simpkin will do a better job than Blake as a defender. Blake was in ripping form before he got injured, but his ruck stints had worn him out.

With Macca and Kosi in ruck now and with Stanley due around the same time as Blake, we don't want to go overboard with gifting games to loyal servants

[BigMart]

You always think we are doing well..... Unfortunately with one of the best core groups assembled we missed the boat, and failed to develop in the process.... Which incidentally was why!!

The Collingwood model was successful....

We should have a
Making the finals party and release a DVD...... To go along with 'the streak'

[plugger66]

You always think we are doing well..... Unfortunately with one of the best core groups assembled we missed the boat, and failed to develop in the process.... Which incidentally was why!!

The Collingwood model was successful....

We should have a
Making the finals party and release a DVD...... To go along with 'the streak'

Who the hell are you addressing? because i read the thread and I ant see anyone who who you could possibly being writing to. Maybe mention names or quote Arrogance of the highest order.

[Scollop]

The Elimnation final losses of 1998 and 2006 were very important weren't they.

There were no elimination finals in 1998 but I see what you mean. No team was ever going to win the Premiership with just 13 wins for the season.

5 Adelaide 22 13 9 2172 1763 123.2 52
6 St Kilda 22 13 9 2148 2104 102.1 52

Blighty got rid of some the old warriors in the Crows line-up a few years earlier and their was uproar at the time. "How could he do that to the loyal servants/former captains, etc..." A lot of the youngsters flourished, and it also allowed Blight to introduce other players into the team. If we cannot challenge this year, then I see no reason to keep some of our warriors. Milne might want to play on, but I don't think he should beyond this year. Blake should have gone at the end of 2010.

It's a fine balance between development and playing blokes that have been the regulars in the team. The players that have weaknesses or that become a liability to the team should be occasionally dropped. Keep them all on their toes, and get them playing together as a team, no matter who lines up on the park. Anyone with a niggle or some injury doubt, has a rest and you give an opportunity to a player that is in good form and is 100% fit.

The template for the Saints 2012 list should be the Cats management of players last year, which had half the list wondering whether they'd get consecutive games or not. The Cats are so confident that their player management strategy is a formula for success, that they're running with it this year again. What it does is that it keeps all players hungry. The selection committee plays blokes that are maintaining their form and working as hard as they can. It keeps all senior players and youngsters preparing as bast as they can (and not taking their spot in the side for granted).

[BigMart]

Where we're the cats sitting in R14 last year??

[Scollop]

Where we're the cats sitting in R14 last year??

We didn't roll the dice against GC Suns so as far as 'resting' blokes, it's not happening. As far as dropping blokes who have a couple of bad games in a row - I think that should still happen if we have blokes ready to come in and it doesn't change team structure too much.

[kosifantutti]

You always think we are doing well..... Unfortunately with one of the best core groups assembled we missed the boat, and failed to develop in the process.... Which incidentally was why!!

The Collingwood model was successful....

So the reason the ball didn't bounce right for Milne was that Collingwood were developing their players better than us.

[BigMart]

Not talking about that one game in isolation.... Fact is, they should have nailed us in the first half and if it weren't for two heroic efforts would have won easily, and did so the next week

Then played off again

But the point is, they will most likely go again this year.... Why.... The developed kids whilst winning....

Continual growth.

[Scollop]

Collingwood and the Cats and the Hawks are constantly developing players and churn the guys who aren't consistent or who underperform when it counts most. Under Lyon we persevered with ours, while getting rid of quality people who could actually play. What was it? In 'Ross we trust' was the mantra!! Team selection is the coaches major responsibility. Axing players like Goose Maguire and Luke Ball was wrong and did not help the Saints win a flag.

Under Lyon we got so conditioned to thinking that we were going to have a close tussle with teams. In Saturdays match against the bombers, I didn't feel safe until we finally got to about 7 goals up, late in the third quarter. How refreshing is it under SW to see the team have a multi pronged forward line and so many options to goal? If we didn't continue to be aggressive and attack our goals, there would always be a chance that the Bombers could stay within striking distance.

Lyons mantra was tempo footy and defend and lock down. More often that not under Lyon, we'd be chasing teams and playing catch up, because the opposition were the only ones interested in actually playing attacking footy. I love the fact that we are scoring freely in games and looking to get ahead on the scoreboard rather than shut-down the opposition and try and contain them.

As for that bounce...Ross Lyon and others carried on blaming the bad kicking, the toe poke, and the weather in 2009, and once again the Saints failure and the senior coaches mistakes in 2010, were conveniently forgotten by blaming that bounce.

[kosifantutti]

Not talking about that one game in isolation.... Fact is, they should have nailed us in the first half and if it weren't for two heroic efforts would have won easily, and did so the next week

Then played off again

But the point is, they will most likely go again this year.... Why.... The developed kids whilst winning....

Continual growth.

Your talking about Collingwood's success compared to ours and it came down to one bounce of the ball regardless of what happened in the first half and what happened the following week.

Collingwood may go again this year, but perhaps you can wait until they achieve something before using it as proof.

[BigMart]

The fact that you say they 'may' go again this year....

And can see NO reason why they cannot challenge for the next three.... That's five cracks at the title...

We had two

That gives them a very big opportunity at winning one or more.... We did not and really, are we going to challenge in the short term.

Bounce of the ball is what happens in footy.... Want to win a GF... You need to go to the well a number of times and not put eggs in one basket....
A wise man once said to me
You need to keep bringing in talent through the bottom.... The top will take care of itself

Simpkin
Siposs
Newnes
Stanley
Saad

[saintspremiers]

Not talking about that one game in isolation.... Fact is, they should have nailed us in the first half and if it weren't for two heroic efforts would have won easily, and did so the next week

Then played off again

But the point is, they will most likely go again this year.... Why.... The developed kids whilst winning....

Continual growth.

Your talking about Collingwood's success compared to ours and it came down to one bounce of the ball regardless of what happened in the first half and what happened the following week.

Collingwood may go again this year, but perhaps you can wait until they achieve something before using it as proof.

Marto has a point re the 1st half.

And even had the ball bounced the right way the siren was 90 seconds away, not 9 seconds. People conveniently forget that FACT.

[kosifantutti]

Not talking about that one game in isolation.... Fact is, they should have nailed us in the first half and if it weren't for two heroic efforts would have won easily, and did so the next week

Then played off again

But the point is, they will most likely go again this year.... Why.... The developed kids whilst winning....

Continual growth.

Your talking about Collingwood's success compared to ours and it came down to one bounce of the ball regardless of what happened in the first half and what happened the following week.

Collingwood may go again this year, but perhaps you can wait until they achieve something before using it as proof.

Marto has a point re the 1st half.

And even had the ball bounced the right way the siren was 90 seconds away, not 9 seconds. People conveniently forget that FACT.

The point is the game was a draw. There were 1,000 incidents that could have sent the game either way "the bounce" being one of them. But people use Collingwood's premiership as proof that they did every thing right that year and everyone else did everything wrong. But the fact is they were one point away from failing.

If the ball had of bounced into Milne's hands or if Kosi had of marked 20m out or if the Blake had of gone all Barry Breen, we would have been deserved premiers. People forget that FACT and what happened the following week doesn't change that.

[BigMart]

But it didn't happen.... What ifs don't ever count

What if Barry Breens kick slid of the side of his foot out of bounds, or Des didnt have a brain fade and kick from the centre with no player within 30m of him...

What ifs count for zero, what happened is fact...

[borderbarry]

A benefit from finishing 9th instead of 8th...
9th.. 1st pick No.12
8th. 1st pick No.14 at this stage.

[kosifantutti]

But it didn't happen.... What ifs don't ever count

What if Barry Breens kick slid of the side of his foot out of bounds, or Des didnt have a brain fade and kick from the centre with no player within 30m of him...

What ifs count for zero, what happened is fact...

Would it mean we had done everything wrong during the '60s and Collingwood had done everything right?