Jason Gram's game

[BigMart]

Teflon

What did you think of Jason Cripps in his 2 and a half quarters

Because if 12 touches and 4 tackles annoys you, 3 touches and 0 tackles must have really raised your ire...

[plugger66]

Milney doesn't, Kosi doesn't, just to name two.
Not all players are capable of it, irrespective of experience.

Milne and Kosi even have at least produced since a good game in 2009 GF... or don't the count? Cause Grans done squat since then... but you're happy with good qtr here or there is that it? No wonder we have 1 flag in 100 yrs. FFS

My thought exactly. Teflon is brutally honest and good on him. It astounds me how others here talk up Gram's 25 posessions when the first 20 were mainly ineffective. It's laughable to justify a player's performance by number of posessions. Stats can be so misleading. 5 quality damaging posessions to me are heaps more value to a team's performance than 20 bull*#it ones ffs!

To challenge for a flag a team needs it's fair share of hard, tough ball players and we don't have enough. No wonder Richmond put all their efforts on Lenny on Friday night in centre clearances. Armo is the only other one willing to play that role but hasn't got the tank of a top line midfielder. Jack is developing and will be a very good player for us but hasn't got the body strength yet to keep performing consistently.

I get abused for picking on Montagna as well but his efforts speak for themselves. He was in fine media form again on the weekend praising Cotchin's performance and saying that he will be the best midfielder in the comp within 2 years and good luck to him if he does. He certainly plays with heaps of passion and probably works just as hard off the field. Montagna could well spend more time focusing on his own game and taking his game to another level rather than giving accolades to others but some players are happy to stay within their comfort zone and he is one of these. His last couple of years have been average at best. Overrated for a while now and seems to have more passion for getting his noggin in front of a TV camera but of course, there are posters here that think Montagna will be a key player in getting us deep into the finals one more time lol.

Seriously do you read what you write. Big deal that Joey is in the media for about an hour a week. He has done it for about 4 years and has done very well in that time. As for Gram he was rated our highest on champion data which doesnt mean everything but poor players dont get the most points.

And talk about reactionary. Jack has had one or two ordinary games this year and all of a sudden he hasnt got the body strength to be consistent. Have you posted that often this year? People really do have set opinions about players and go to the games with their eyes shut. Gram was good on Friday and Joey was OK.

[saintkid]

Teflon

What did you think of Jason Cripps in his 2 and a half quarters

Because if 12 touches and 4 tackles annoys you, 3 touches and 0 tackles must have really raised your ire...

Jamie Cripps wasn't great but he is still in development stage. We could have done with a hard nut like Jason Cripps though. Was a pretty good player 15 years ago before he tore his hammy off the bone.

[saintkid]

Seriously do you read what you write. Big deal that Joey is in the media for about an hour a week. He has done it for about 4 years and has done very well in that time. As for Gram he was rated our highest on champion data which doesnt mean everything but poor players dont get the most points.

And talk about reactionary. Jack has had one or two ordinary games this year and all of a sudden he hasnt got the body strength to be consistent. Have you posted that often this year? People really do have set opinions about players and go to the games with their eyes shut. Gram was good on Friday and Joey was OK.

Yeah, I do read what I write and I am very sure that Joey's media roles have increased the last couple of years compared to previous years.

Don't try to make me out as if I am now bagging Jack Steven. We all love him as a player here with his speed and decision making and all I'm stating is that he is not yet physically developed to play the hard inside role on a week to week basis that Lenny and Armo can. We know very well how much of a problem he has had with his feet and ankles and it's been great that he has slowly been able to get on top of these issues since middle of last year.

[plugger66]

Seriously do you read what you write. Big deal that Joey is in the media for about an hour a week. He has done it for about 4 years and has done very well in that time. As for Gram he was rated our highest on champion data which doesnt mean everything but poor players dont get the most points.

And talk about reactionary. Jack has had one or two ordinary games this year and all of a sudden he hasnt got the body strength to be consistent. Have you posted that often this year? People really do have set opinions about players and go to the games with their eyes shut. Gram was good on Friday and Joey was OK.

Yeah, I do read what I write and I am very sure that Joey's media roles have increased the last couple of years compared to previous years.

Don't try to make me out as if I am now bagging Jack Steven. We all love him as a player here with his speed and decision making and all I'm stating is that he is not yet physically developed to play the hard inside role on a week to week basis that Lenny and Armo can. We know very well how much of a problem he has had with his feet and ankles and it's been great that he has slowly been able to get on top of these issues since middle of last year.

I dont think he has ever had a problem with his feet and ankles. Did hurt his ankle this year. Has had groin problems though. By the way he has only had one year less than Armo so he is good to go. Just had an off night. Nothing to do with his body and has been very consistant this year. And I dont think Joey's media work has increased much at all. Why not have a go at Dal for his media work or BJ.

[gringo]

I think Joey's output has been down since he is getting less of an on ball role, similar to Milera he kind of starts on a forward pocket and runs around the ground like Thomas and Sidebottom, Beams etc do at Collingwood. I was pissed off with him for screwing up my dream team until I realised he wasn't doing as much of an on ball role. He seems to be getting better at it as he learns the role now too. He used to be measured on wether he got 30 possies now his KPIs are a little less obvious.

[saintkid]

Seriously do you read what you write. Big deal that Joey is in the media for about an hour a week. He has done it for about 4 years and has done very well in that time. As for Gram he was rated our highest on champion data which doesnt mean everything but poor players dont get the most points.

And talk about reactionary. Jack has had one or two ordinary games this year and all of a sudden he hasnt got the body strength to be consistent. Have you posted that often this year? People really do have set opinions about players and go to the games with their eyes shut. Gram was good on Friday and Joey was OK.

Yeah, I do read what I write and I am very sure that Joey's media roles have increased the last couple of years compared to previous years.

Don't try to make me out as if I am now bagging Jack Steven. We all love him as a player here with his speed and decision making and all I'm stating is that he is not yet physically developed to play the hard inside role on a week to week basis that Lenny and Armo can. We know very well how much of a problem he has had with his feet and ankles and it's been great that he has slowly been able to get on top of these issues since middle of last year.

I dont think he has ever had a problem with his feet and ankles. Did hurt his ankle this year. Has had groin problems though. By the way he has only had one year less than Armo so he is good to go. Just had an off night. Nothing to do with his body and has been very consistant this year. And I dont think Joey's media work has increased much at all. Why not have a go at Dal for his media work or BJ.

Plugger he did have ongoing foot and ankle issues. Ankle in 2009 and foot injury in 2010 which was initially reported as a 'sprained midfoot' and missed 7 weeks. Can check out here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=au

[8bloggs]

The problem I have is that the bad things I see Grammy do stick in my head far more strongly than a lot of the Ok and to a lesser extent the good things he does. I read the stats the next day after the game and think "OK, he had a fair bit of the action...", but to see him shirk a tackle right in front of where I was sitting and not chase his opponent on another situation riles me and is what I remember far longer - it is worse because you come to expect it and if it happens again you feel vindicated. I don't like bagging any player but you don't like seeing any experienced player taking a soft option. I know its irrational to maintain a biased attitude by the bad things and ignoring the good but it is a normal human reaction when you also see other less talented players putting in over the entire game... Having got that out of my system I hope Grammy does lift like he did in that last quarter for other games, and that his kicking improves. I'll leave it to the selection committee to decide on whether and where he plays.

[Teflon]

Given his last quarter highlights are up on the Saints website, not exactly convinced by you nay sayers that he'll be dropped this week.

In fact, I reckon Scott would of looked him in the eyes and said 'now that's level you need to sustain next week'

Please also note as he is taking his first kick for goal after three 'ordinary' quarters of hardly touching it and choosing when to go, the coverage shows he already has 8 kicks, 8 handballs, 5 marks....

http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsartic ... iframe]/2/

Thank god for that last qtr hey? Just imagine if Tiges kick straight qtr 1....

Did Gram date your sister or something?

One things for sure, you certainly can't read....

He had 21 touches before his 'cameo performance'

Not saying he was the best, not even top 10, just good enough to hold his spot.

Perhaps the question is : Are you Grams sister?

Either way, reading's also not a strong point - I told you Im not into stats. Watch his first half again, LOOK (using 2 eyes) at some of the efforts and come back to me.

[SainterK]

I did watch his first half, live....you?

I just think whipping boys are so 1980, and the desire to have one....reserved for special kinds of people like Robert Walls and Rodney Eade.

[Teflon]

Grams getting worse by the hour in teffy's fkkd head

Astounded you know the time given you've managed to conjur 19 posts in your life you dopey fwit.

Add reading to time skills and you'll be less of a felcher than you are now!

Maybe I don't have free time like others...but your response does nothing to indicate I'm wrong

Keep your hands out of your pants and youll be amazed at your free time increase..

[dcstkfc]

The problem I have is that the bad things I see Grammy do stick in my head far more strongly than a lot of the Ok and to a lesser extent the good things he does. I read the stats the next day after the game and think "OK, he had a fair bit of the action...", but to see him shirk a tackle right in front of where I was sitting and not chase his opponent on another situation riles me and is what I remember far longer - it is worse because you come to expect it and if it happens again you feel vindicated. I don't like bagging any player but you don't like seeing any experienced player taking a soft option. I know its irrational to maintain a biased attitude by the bad things and ignoring the good but it is a normal human reaction when you also see other less talented players putting in over the entire game... Having got that out of my system I hope Grammy does lift like he did in that last quarter for other games, and that his kicking improves. I'll leave it to the selection committee to decide on whether and where he plays.

Essentially you have a pre-existing bias which clouds the way you rate players' performances. It's OK, we all do, but just try to be even-handed.

[gringo]

I think it's actually pretty natural to see people through preconceived notions. It happens in families even were one assumes the loser role and the other members look for their failings to back up the concept of them. They end up looking past the good and over focussing on their stuff ups.

Gram was a really highly rated player until he had an ordinary 2011 which coincided with a big pay rise. Kosi likewise had an injury plagued 2010 and 2011 and became a favourite focus for fans wanting to understand where the teams 2009 form went. Often there is a bizarre hysteria over small issues like Josh Hunt "dogging" in a marking contest or Raph's run down from behind in a GF.

In the Tigers game the Saints fans near me were screaming at Gram and Gilbert when they were going pretty well but at one point Lenny stopped running to a contest he could have made but chose to pull up no one noticed. If Gram had done that it would have been used as evidence of his weaknesses. Lenny can do no wrong so when he handballs to an opposition player it isn't banked as evidence.

All I'm saying is no one is getting left out there when they don't perform, footy is cruel not prone to embracing poor performance so if the coaching panel believes in their role they must be doing something right. I heard some Essendon flog ring SEN and bag Brent Stanton and when the announcer suggested he was probably leading the Brownlow he didn't know what to say.

[Teflon]

I did watch his first half, live....you?

I just think whipping boys are so 1980, and the desire to have one....reserved for special kinds of people like Robert Walls and Rodney Eade.

I watch all melb games live and then the replay. Do tell me previously how many threads Ive started to "whip" Gram with? ....I'll be interested in your stats on that...

I just think going ga ga over everything every saints player does and never having the objectivity to call out repeated poor performances adds nothing.

Dont get me wrong Im all for the "glass half full" thing - as long as its not full of your own bath water..

[dcstkfc]

I think it's actually pretty natural to see people through preconceived notions. It happens in families even were one assumes the loser role and the other members look for their failings to back up the concept of them. They end up looking past the good and over focussing on their stuff ups.

Gram was a really highly rated player until he had an ordinary 2011 which coincided with a big pay rise. Kosi likewise had an injury plagued 2010 and 2011 and became a favourite focus for fans wanting to understand where the teams 2009 form went. Often there is a bizarre hysteria over small issues like Josh Hunt "dogging" in a marking contest or Raph's run down from behind in a GF.

In the Tigers game the Saints fans near me were screaming at Gram and Gilbert when they were going pretty well but at one point Lenny stopped running to a contest he could have made but chose to pull up no one noticed. If Gram had done that it would have been used as evidence of his weaknesses. Lenny can do no wrong so when he handballs to an opposition player it isn't banked as evidence.

All I'm saying is no one is getting left out there when they don't perform, footy is cruel not prone to embracing poor performance so if the coaching panel believes in their role they must be doing something right. I heard some Essendon flog ring SEN and bag Brent Stanton and when the announcer suggested he was probably leading the Brownlow he didn't know what to say.

Very good post

[SainterK]

I did watch his first half, live....you?

I just think whipping boys are so 1980, and the desire to have one....reserved for special kinds of people like Robert Walls and Rodney Eade.

I watch all melb games live and then the replay. Do tell me previously how many threads Ive started to "whip" Gram with? ....I'll be interested in your stats on that...

I just think going ga ga over everything every saints player does and never having the objectivity to call out repeated poor performances adds nothing.

Dont get me wrong Im all for the "glass half full" thing - as long as its not full of your own bath water..

I actually called him out multiple times last year for poor performances....hopefully someone can back me up? I even regularly highlighted to everyone how he led our side for kicks direct to the opposition, and ranked amongst the highest for turnovers.

This year I see him much fitter physically, seemingly working really hard on his kicking...and for mine, looking like he is starting to feel good about his body and his football.

1 quarter he was off, sure...but he was asked to do better, and did.

As I have explained to you, there are others I am more concerned about.

[Teflon]

[quote="gringo"]

In the Tigers game the Saints fans near me were screaming at Gram and Gilbert when they were going pretty well but at one point Lenny stopped running to a contest he could have made but chose to pull up no one noticed. If Gram had done that it would have been used as evidence of his weaknesses. Lenny can do no wrong so when he handballs to an opposition player it isn't banked as evidence [quote]

Your over cooking it mate.

Your not Freud and we aint all lying on a couch listening to your dulcet tones tell us how it was "all our fathers fault"

Seriously, to ask why supporters go nuts over Gram seemingly pulling out of a chase/contest and not doing the same for Hayes ignores 1 major thing: Hayes DOES and HAS been doing these things to exhaustion for years.....no one in AFL land questions him for that very reason.

Sometimes amid all the psycho-analysis of whats wrong with a situation....the truth is what it is....or as Freud would put it..."sometimes a cigar...is just a cigar..."

[gringo]

In the Tigers game the Saints fans near me were screaming at Gram and Gilbert when they were going pretty well but at one point Lenny stopped running to a contest he could have made but chose to pull up no one noticed. If Gram had done that it would have been used as evidence of his weaknesses. Lenny can do no wrong so when he handballs to an opposition player it isn't banked as evidence

Your over cooking it mate.

Your not Freud and we aint all lying on a couch listening to your dulcet tones tell us how it was "all our fathers fault"

Seriously, to ask why supporters go nuts over Gram seemingly pulling out of a chase/contest and not doing the same for Hayes ignores 1 major thing: Hayes DOES and HAS been doing these things to exhaustion for years.....no one in AFL land questions him for that very reason.

Sometimes amid all the psycho-analysis of whats wrong with a situation....the truth is what it is....or as Freud would put it..."sometimes a cigar...is just a cigar..."

Not with that phallic tone to what your writing good sir. I believe the cigar you have in your mouth is compensation.

[Teflon]

I did watch his first half, live....you?

I just think whipping boys are so 1980, and the desire to have one....reserved for special kinds of people like Robert Walls and Rodney Eade.

I watch all melb games live and then the replay. Do tell me previously how many threads Ive started to "whip" Gram with? ....I'll be interested in your stats on that...

I just think going ga ga over everything every saints player does and never having the objectivity to call out repeated poor performances adds nothing.

Dont get me wrong Im all for the "glass half full" thing - as long as its not full of your own bath water..

I actually called him out multiple times last year for poor performances....hopefully someone can back me up? I even regularly highlighted to everyone how he led our side for kicks direct to the opposition, and ranked amongst the highest for turnovers.

This year I see him much fitter physically, seemingly working really hard on his kicking...and for mine, looking like he is starting to feel good about his body and his football.

1 quarter he was off, sure...but he was asked to do better, and did.

As I have explained to you, there are others I am more concerned about.

You dodge the issue I have woth Gram

Its not his kicking - I long ago learnt to deal with that, not all players ar Dal Santo
Its not his stats - could care lessin modern game about them tbh (some more important than others)

I do care about his effort.

As I said, you'll be hard pressed to find me previously, constantly bagging Gram cause I havent. Sure, the site apologists want me tarred and feathered as a "hater" or apparently now the Freud's have me stuck in some "warped previously biased misconception" on Gram that renders me void of any logical or objectives thought on him.....nice theory.

Truth is Friday, watching Gram early, I'd simply had enough to be honest and as someone else said on this thread - IF he's going to continue to show up for a quarter here and there OR choose when to put the body on the line OR chase then lets move on to the future that will IMO.

[Teflon]

[/b]

Your over cooking it mate.

Your not Freud and we aint all lying on a couch listening to your dulcet tones tell us how it was "all our fathers fault"

Seriously, to ask why supporters go nuts over Gram seemingly pulling out of a chase/contest and not doing the same for Hayes ignores 1 major thing: Hayes DOES and HAS been doing these things to exhaustion for years.....no one in AFL land questions him for that very reason.

Sometimes amid all the psycho-analysis of whats wrong with a situation....the truth is what it is....or as Freud would put it..."sometimes a cigar...is just a cigar..."

Not with that phallic tone to what your writing good sir. I believe the cigar you have in your mouth is compensation.

I consider myself as a virtuous man....and ....the virtuous man contents himself with dreaming that which the wicked man does in actual life.

Youre obviously a very naughty boy Gringo..

[Austinnn]

You dodge the issue I have woth Gram

Its not his kicking - I long ago learnt to deal with that, not all players ar Dal Santo
Its not his stats - could care lessin modern game about them tbh (some more important than others)

I do care about his effort.

As I said, you'll be hard pressed to find me previously, constantly bagging Gram cause I havent. Sure, the site apologists want me tarred and feathered as a "hater" or apparently now the Freud's have me stuck in some "warped previously biased misconception" on Gram that renders me void of any logical or objectives thought on him.....nice theory.

Truth is Friday, watching Gram early, I'd simply had enough to be honest and as someone else said on this thread - IF he's going to continue to show up for a quarter here and there OR choose when to put the body on the line OR chase then lets move on to the future that will IMO.

Good call. I admit I didot of actions from Gram that helped his club, before 3 quarter time. I saw mostly Weak inneffectual tackles, disposals that put the receiver under the pump, half efforts on the goal line.

If you folks at the game say he had a good game then I will take that, but I hope you're not just going on his numbers.

Lack of effort cannot be excused, its contageous and destructive. We must support our players, but preference must be given to players who give the maximum.

I'm happy that he turned it around in the last. It's his spot to leave.

[SainterK]

Can't say he isn't tough!

I think he smothered the ball with his you know whats....

Oh, and he has picked up where he left off.

Onwards and upwards Grammy!

[dragit]

Surely even his knockers won't be asking for him to be dropped this week? Pretty decent game, some beautiful long kicks.

[Teflon]

Can't say he isn't tough!

I think he smothered the ball with his you know whats....

Oh, and he has picked up where he left off.

Onwards and upwards Grammy!

Let's see 4 good, tough quarters against Crows over there as opposed to QLD under 21s before we go all ga ga again hey??

[Dave McNamara]

Surely even his knockers won't be asking for him to be dropped this week? Pretty decent game, some beautiful long kicks.

Hi Dragit, fair comment re the Grrrrrrr-manitator from yourself and K. He should get another gig again next week for mine. That said, against the Crones we will really need the Grammy of quarter 4 v the tuggers.

Come on Grrrrr-ammy, we need your best, onwards and upwards!!!