Lenny Hayes

[BigMart]

"I don't want to hang around and take a young guys spot, especially if we're not going to contend"

"it's a long year, I'll wait until the end of the year, at my age, coming off a knee reco"

Doesn't sound to me like he's made up his mind at all, and is just playing for the moment. But since saying he will hang up the boots at seasons end, people (person) has attempted to mock as if he's just signed a 4 year deal already. At least wait until proved right before taking pleasure in proving me wrong, if that's such a great pleasure anyway???
It was at the end of the day, just an opinion.... But some people have taken of fence to the call, as if I was stating it as a fact.... And have pathetically tried to throw it in my face at every opportunity... Get over it

Seriously, we finish out of the 8 and look like a mini rebuild may need to happen...... Anyone who hasnt got 3 years might have to make way for a

Seb Ross, Tom Ledger, Sam Dunnell and any trade/DP that need to be fast tracked.....

Lenny Hayes is an undisputed champion, and could milk two or three years easily.... But his waning form, not only may hurt the team, but stifle a kid... In the same way Armo was stifled..
The Aus Cricket team are perhaps the best example of senior player hanging on and averaging 40, not as beneficial as trying new blood averaging 35....

Lenny is such a character he won't be greedy and do this..... And unlike Aus Cricket Selectors..... Watters may have the balls to make a tough call...

[gringo]

I can't see anyone moving Lenny on same as Harves the board would sack the Pelch if he wanted Lenny to move on. He was exposed for speed against Richmond and possibly was having horror flash backs of his knee going last year. He has been a major contributor in 2012 and seems to lift the team on his own back in a way only he and rooey can do.

[PJ]

Maric made an interesting comment post, said somethin along the lines of it was pretty hard trying to keep Hayes out of the game. It seems it was a focus of Richmond's midfield to team tag him out of the game.

[The Redeemer]

I can't see anyone moving Lenny on same as Harves the board would sack the Pelch if he wanted Lenny to move on. He was exposed for speed against Richmond and possibly was having horror flash backs of his knee going last year. He has been a major contributor in 2012 and seems to lift the team on his own back in a way only he and rooey can do.

Hayes would go before Pelchen and that kind of idea is what is a problem at this football club of putting a player on a pedestal.

That being said I think he will retire at years' end and it will almost break my heart. He is easily my mostest favourite Sainter ever.

[saintsRrising]

Lenny WILL play next year. He is just a modest and a gentleman..
Saints ARE in a min-rebuild already (Saad, Milera, Stanley)
Steven and Armo are on the improve...but Ross and others may need longer.

Lenny is LEADER who playing on will lift others.

IMO we are more of a chance next year than this year.
* Ben and Stanley will be one year bigger
* Stanley, Saad and Milera will have a goodly number of games under their belts
* We will not lose anyone that is key
* Watters game plan will have been absorbed and practice
* Watter will grow as a coach
* Pretty sure that we will have traded for a FB, or will have identified a mature age draft.. Wilkes did not work out this year.

[defacto]

too early to call. saints will give him another year if he wants it. lenny is the type of bloke that will put the club before himself. we dont have to worry about having a baker situation.

[The Redeemer]

Lenny WILL play next year. He is just a modest and a gentleman..
Saints ARE in a min-rebuild already (Saad, Milera, Stanley)
Steven and Armo are on the improve...but Ross and others may need longer.

Lenny is LEADER who playing on will lift others.

IMO we are more of a chance next year than this year.
* Ben and Stanley will be one year bigger
* Stanley, Saad and Milera will have a goodly number of games under their belts
* We will not lose anyone that is key
* Watters game plan will have been absorbed and practice
* Watter will grow as a coach
* Pretty we will have traded for a FB. Wilkes did not work out this year.

Be fair on Wilkes as he was always going to be a back-up player. For me he should stay on the list next year as he has shown capabilities as a back-up or as a third tall when we have decided to load up.

How do you know we will not lose anyone? The Tigers might come to us with 2 first rounders and a young player for Dal Santo and then you have to wonder if it is worthwhile trading him...

Watters should grow and develop as a coach as he is paid to do so.

Milera will be 25 next year....

Ben and Stanley need to actually win hit outs and give us first use...my idea would be to trade for Jon Griffin as he is literally rotting away in the 2's whilst they play Zac Clarke who has shown all sorts of bugger all.

[saintsRrising]

How do you know we will not lose anyone? .

I don't.
We may lose BJ to the money. I think he will stay though.

And I said of significance...so we may lose Blake, but by seasons end Simpkin will be a solid replacement.

I would estimate that Pelchen an Wattes will view our list as being capable of havinga crack in 2013 and so will not switch to full rebuild. I see Pelchen working very hard on our weaknesses.

The Wonder trade to get Saad and Milera with for only a 5 spot is not likely to be repeated. But I am confident that he will ne working lon and hard on our deficiencies. FB is the biggest current one. Back up ruck is another.

He will with kids continue to build footskills and pace.

[gringo]

I can't see anyone moving Lenny on same as Harves the board would sack the Pelch if he wanted Lenny to move on. He was exposed for speed against Richmond and possibly was having horror flash backs of his knee going last year. He has been a major contributor in 2012 and seems to lift the team on his own back in a way only he and rooey can do.

Hayes would go before Pelchen and that kind of idea is what is a problem at this football club of putting a player on a pedestal.

That being said I think he will retire at years' end and it will almost break my heart. He is easily my mostest favourite Sainter ever.

I think it is the reality with most clubs, the marquee players are above the board almost. The danger is when you have a rogue marquee player like Plugger, Ablett Snr, Hall, Everitt, Fev, Aker etc. Lenny would be the kind of branding for a club that is impossible to manufacture. His value to the club as a whole is much greater than his on field contribution.

[Sobraz]

" In the same way Armo was stifled..

Who was the midfielder that recently retired that has allowed Armo to step up this year???

Hayes has been our best performed mid this year by a mile, and at the same time Steven and Armo are having their best years to date...

Keeping around older, slower blokes and developing youth are not mutually exclusive... They can (and are) happening at the same time... And it will continue to as Ledger is brought in and Hayes, Steven and Armo keep their spots...

Similar to Tuck of Richmond alongside Cotchin, Martin etc...

The Aussie cricket team is a strange example, as Im not sure there is any real positive youth coming through (batting as you referred to), and the Indian series domination was primarily on the back of Clarke and Ponting, to a lesser extent Hussey... Hughes has been tried and failed, Kawaja the same, Marsh even worse...

[Richter]

I hear what you are saying Marto but I disagree. You are retired a long time and it is clear that Lenny retains the hunger and his form clearly puts him in our top 3 for the B&F (probably leading actually).

Clearly if his form dramatically slumps then that would change, but I doubt that will happen for another 2 years.

IMO he's 90:10 to play on next year, then 50:50 for the year after that (2013).

[gringo]

" In the same way Armo was stifled..

Who was the midfielder that recently retired that has allowed Armo to step up this year???

Hayes has been our best performed mid this year by a mile, and at the same time Steven and Armo are having their best years to date...

Keeping around older, slower blokes and developing youth are not mutually exclusive... They can (and are) happening at the same time... And it will continue to as Ledger is brought in and Hayes, Steven and Armo keep their spots...

Similar to Tuck of Richmond alongside Cotchin, Martin etc...

The Aussie cricket team is a strange example, as Im not sure there is any real positive youth coming through (batting as you referred to), and the Indian series domination was primarily on the back of Clarke and Ponting, to a lesser extent Hussey... Hughes has been tried and failed, Kawaja the same, Marsh even worse...

joey is the midfielder who has been retired to the forward pocket and given the around the ground Farren Ray type role. Collingwood have those types of "wing" men that seem not to get masses of ball but are handy users and capable mids- Beams, Sidebottom, Wellingham etc.

[plugger66]

Worked well for Melbourne getting rid of McDonald. Who says champs should retire because they may not be part of the next wave of stars? the person who posted this surely realises only 20 out of over a 1000 players have been part of a premiership side. Lenny will play next year unless he gets major injury or for some strange reason his form completely drops away.

[joffaboy]

We alsdo should have gotten rid of that Harvey chump when he turned 32, taking younger players spots and bludging all the time.

How many times did you see that old bloke lazy Harvey with his hands on his hips bent forward after onyl 5 minutes play.

Get rid of old blokes because well their birth certificate says so.

if Watters doesn't delist Lenny he is not serious about winning a flag and should resign.

[Leo.J]

The throwing away of birth certificates works both ways imo...

Doesn't matter how old or young you are if you're good enough you should get a game.

Lenny has alot to teach the younger guys also.

While Ben Cousins didn't really work out too well for the Tigers, I believe that without him Cotchin and Martin wouldn't be as advanced as they are now.

[BigMart]

Forgot to mention..... The great man himself will be. A year on...... With our core group... Who are generally >28

Harves was every chance of retiring post 2002/3 but saw an amazing motivating factor
A chance to help his beloved saints to a flag with a once in a generation crop, and he milked every bit out

No one can/will question Lenny's ability and worth to the team... The only question is the ability to motivate for another gruelling pre season.. With a wife, perhaps kids and coaching ahead.... Will he prepare for life after footy... Or go around again..

It may depend on BJ.... To some extent, from a coaches point of view

His decision will be self sacrifing as ever...
Whatever is best for the club, and can he help or will he hold back another....... This attitude makes him a true champ

FWIW.... I hope he goes round again.... Then I'll know the attitude/belief by the coaching staff/leadership that we are a chance.

BTW cousins was excellent for the tigers
2 top 5 finishes in the B&F and a mentoring role to current stars

[BigMart]

Sobraz great argument.... But I might suggest we missed or didn't know the next wave of cricketers, A bit like most opposition supporters who didn't rate/know stk youth... Not because they were hopeless.... They were just unknown

Some players now past there prime who were in red hot form in shield crickets....Klinger 2007-2010, D.Hussey 2006-2011, B.Hodge 2006-2008, c.rogers 2008-2011, D.Christian 2011+, E.Cowan 2010+ maybe a few others....possibly

BTW plugger

Would Melbourne have faired a lot better with a 34yo tagger.... How many more wins exactly??
They have a defecit of player 24-29 which is why they are s***.... And a lack of a group of leaders... Not 1 34yo B grade mid (good player) but not a match winner.
Their problem is the weakness of a number of their core group.

[loris]

Do I get a feeling of deja vu.......................... I can recall a 'resident expert' on this site a few years back going a season too early calling for Andrew Thompson and Nathan Burke to retire...............alas his predictions were wrong............. luckily the club in their wisdom knew their hard bodies and experience were still needed until younger players could effectively step up and fill their roles..................

Now who was that expert then???????

Was it SaintMart or Marto?

Gee all these Martians and their predictions get this 'old girl' a little confused. Sad eh?????????????

[plugger66]

Sobraz great argument.... But I might suggest we missed or didn't know the next wave of cricketers, A bit like most opposition supporters who didn't rate/know stk youth... Not because they were hopeless.... They were just unknown

Some players now past there prime who were in red hot form in shield crickets....Klinger 2007-2010, D.Hussey 2006-2011, B.Hodge 2006-2008, c.rogers 2008-2011, D.Christian 2011+, E.Cowan 2010+ maybe a few others....possibly

BTW plugger

Would Melbourne have faired a lot better with a 34yo tagger.... How many more wins exactly??
They have a defecit of player 24-29 which is why they are s***.... And a lack of a group of leaders... Not 1 34yo B grade mid (good player) but not a match winner.
Their problem is the weakness of a number of their core group.

I have no idea if Melbourne would gone better had McDonald played but i do know they could not have gone worse. Why does it help the saints if hayes retires? hasnt Armo gone more into the middle than last year and lenny is actually playing. The game is decided by mids and you can never have enough of them if they are stars. lenny is still a star with the provisio there is 12 rounds to go.

[BigMart]

Have never mentioned N.Burke on this site......

A Thompson perhaps, but seriously doubt.... He did go for one year too long though

Am I the 'resident expert' loris... Or is that just what you see me as, because I don't believe I have ever mentioned that. I do give an opinion, and from what I understand, that is what a 'forum' is about.

I know giving a negative (or what's seen to be) comment on a champion at stk is like killing Bambi for some supporters, but I try to call things as I see them.... And guess what... I can be wrong, often

I know you're not a fan, and the feeling is quite mutual, due to your patronizing, passive aggressive tone..... But please don't make up stuff to make your point.

I was taken by surprise when Burkie announced his retirement.

[BigMart]

I mentioned Seb Ross and Tom Ledger?? Not Armo who got his chance in 2011

Who makes way for these boys to develop going fwd.... Or do we wait until there 23yo??

Maybe like Luke Ball, BJ or Joey will be exited??

Or maybe the oldest of the group should step aside as he won't play in the next premiership?? Maybe not
What is surprising (or perhaps not) is his form coming back from a reco... But do you recall Barry Halls last month...it's not about 2012 , it is about 2013!

I thought you didn't rate Armo?
And, whose spot in the midfield has he currently taken??

[plugger66]

I mentioned Seb Ross and Tom Ledger?? Not Armo who got his chance in 2011

Who makes way for these boys to develop going fwd.... Or do we wait until there 23yo??

Maybe like Luke Ball, BJ or Joey will be exited??

Or maybe the oldest of the group should step aside as he won't play in the next premiership?? Maybe not
What is surprising (or perhaps not) is his form coming back from a reco... But do you recall Barry Halls last month...it's not about 2012 , it is about 2013!

I thought you didn't rate Armo?
And, whose spot in the midfield has he currently taken??

Good players will always get a game. If Ross deserves a game he will get it. Same with Ledger. Players have come into the pies mid field even though they recruited Ball. As I said you can never have enough star mids but you can have way to many ordinary ones. have no idea what my opinion of Armo has to do with this and maybe Armo is making my opinion invalid anyway.

Yep recall Halls last month but I also recall his form before he announced he was going to retire.

[BigMart]

Young players need opportunities.....

Ball doesn't get injured... Dane Beams who was in the VFL whilst Ball was in the midfield, doesn't get his opportunity. He has stepped up in Bally's absence....

There are hundreds of such examples.... And while injuries hurt, as do retirements... They provide opportunities.

The making of Jack Riewoldt was the end of Matthew Richardson

[plugger66]

Young players need opportunities.....

Ball doesn't get injured... Dane Beams who was in the VFL whilst Ball was in the midfield, doesn't get his opportunity. He has stepped up in Bally's absence....

There are hundreds of such examples.... And while injuries hurt, as do retirements... They provide opportunities.

The making of Jack Riewoldt was the end of Matthew Richardson

Sorry but I dont agree you retire a champion in form just to give others who most likely wont be as good, a chance.

[BigMart]

Not if they are part of the plans going forward or they are still motivated to continue, or possibly change/decrease roles

Which is what I questioned.... Not his ability or worth

I too would re-evaluate my call given his current form, but not necessarily change my mind