Dear Ross Lyon

[samoht]

A great coach would have mocked Mqualter and Milne with a choking gesture, in full view to maximise the effect !

[joffaboy]

[Firstly, how many of those behinds were rushed?

None

[We only had 3 more scoring shots than Geelong. We had 4 rushed behinds for the match, they had none.
So the 'we kicked ourselves out of it' thing may have been exaggerated a bit over time.

Wrong

[The other thing to address is that we only had 3 more shots, but had 16 more Inside 50s!!! 16! Our efficiency going forward was woeful. It always was under Lyon. There was no system. It was up to Roo to outmark 4 players for us to score

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime - 6 more scoring shots at halftime most of those being easily gettable goals. Players choked in front of goals.

[The other thing to address, is that Lyon recruited Schneider, who was questionable under pressure when we got him.

Won the 2005 PF against us. they then won the flag.

[ So when he misses easy goals under pressure, is it really fair for the bloke who recruited him and selected him and knows he has a history of it - to sit back and say 'Whoa! What a shocking surprise! Schneider missed a sitter in a big game??!'. I don't think so.

Schneiders fault that he missed.

[Milne ditto. McQualter not much different.

Milnes fault he could only score 0.2, Mcqualters fault that he scored a behind.

[These guys had known flaws. Flaws that people were foolishly believing the Ross Lyon hype that he'd fixed. He hadn't fixed them. We'd seen awesome seasons from some 'top 6' players that masked the flaws in other players' games and flaws in the game plan.

cj kicked 1.0. Worst kick in the team but didn't choke in front of goals.

[With Lenny tagged by Bartel in the 2nd half, and Roo not having an impact, we managed only 9 goals in a game of football. 9 goals when you win pretty much all the 'KPIs' surely tells us there is a flawed system in place.

Read the stats in the above post to SainterK. The flaw was the palyers inaccuracy and inability up forward in that game. Indisputable stats.

[How can you win every KPI and have 16 more Inside 50s - yet only have 3 more shots at goal than your opponent? How can that happen if you have a solid, balanced and effective game plan?

Because the players choked in front of goals.

[If Roo was fit, dare I say having 16 more Inside 50s would have meant at least more than just the 3 extra scoring shots we had.

If Chapman was fit he may have kicked 4.2 not 2.4

[But he wasn't fit. And when he couldn't single handedly drag us over the line (see the Collingwood final that year, and the Bulldogs Prelim) we were stuffed.

We beat Collingwood by 5 goals not just from Riewoldt, and easy finals win. Riewoldt scored the goals agaisnt the Bulldogs, but other players stood up especially in the final quarter like Raph Clarke who played a blinder.

You also give absolutely no credit to the Bulldogs who played a great game. But that doesn't fit your meme does it?

[Lyon had nothing, and guys with known flaws in their game suddenly (but not surprsingly) had those flaws bob up.

Lyon had a team with 19 straight wins, got us to a Grand Final, and then the players blew it. 7.7 to 7.1 at half time when if they had not of choked in front of goals we should have been at least 10.4 or 11.3 and out of reach.

Totally the players fault for crumbling under pressure.

[samoht]

Lyon should have strategically rested key players, after we secured first or second spot - after 15 wins.
Geelong finished full of running - while we were running on the one spot in the GF. Is it any wonder ?

RL left Ball on the bench.

Geelong and Collingwood coaches were savvy enough to rest players during the year - hence their flags.

[Johnny Member]

A great coach would have mocked Mqualter and Milne with a choking gesture, in full view to maximise the effect !

Haha!!

[Johnny Member]

In the Collingwood final, we had 3 more scoring shots than them. The same amount as we had against Geelong.

We had 15 more Inside 50s than Collingwood, and 16 more than Geelong. Almost identical in these stats.


The difference was that Riewoldt dominated against Collingwood and kicked 5. His individual performance once again masked the flaws of Lyon's coaching.

Sadly for us, he wasn't able to do it in the GF, and Lyon had nothing to offer once he couldn't.

[desertsaint]

All these 'we kicked ourselves out of it in the first half' arguments are forgetting one important thing.
The game was there for the taking in the last quarter.

We didn't take it. And Ross made some pretty poor decisions when it counted:
Raph's matchup - got absolutely crucified - Lyon did nothing.
Ball's strange absence when an inside ball winner was crucial.
The fallback panic play of bombing it in to a tired and outmatched Roo.

[Johnny Member]

All these 'we kicked ourselves out of it in the first half' arguments are forgetting one important thing.
The game was there for the taking in the last quarter.

We didn't take it. And Ross made some pretty poor decisions when it counted:
Raph's matchup - got absolutely crucified - Lyon did nothing.
Ball's strange absence when an inside ball winner was crucial.
The fallback panic play of bombing it in to a tired and outmatched Roo.

Deadset correct.

The final point for mine, was the most important of all.

[Con Gorozidis]

dempster fwd.
chappy roaming free.
what the F*** was this guy thinking. seriously.
very over rated coach and bloke

[dragit]

and Lyon had nothing to offer once he couldn't.

You make out like Ross was playing at FF…
You don't like him, we get it…

If he wins a flag at Fremantle, then it will be universally accepted that he is a great coach. Until then we will continue this chicken vs egg conversation for eternity & I'm betting on at least 20 more pages on this gem…

Why did GT take Milne to Adelaide for that prelim if he was so adamant that he couldn't play well interstate?

[plugger66]

In the Collingwood final, we had 3 more scoring shots than them. The same amount as we had against Geelong.

We had 15 more Inside 50s than Collingwood, and 16 more than Geelong. Almost identical in these stats.


The difference was that Riewoldt dominated against Collingwood and kicked 5. His individual performance once again masked the flaws of Lyon's coaching.

Sadly for us, he wasn't able to do it in the GF, and Lyon had nothing to offer once he couldn't.

I notice you have been a member since 2006. Can you show us all your posts critisizing RL's coaching druring 2009 especially the resting of players. Also was 38 points a game winning average good enough for you to say you were wrong about how we won games in 2009? it was the highest winning average in the AFL that year but in your opinion we basically scrabbled wins. Well that is now proven as rubbish. Anyway look forward to all your negative posts about RL in2009.

[skeptic]

In all fairness here... it's one thing to criticise team selection on the predictable points... the players out of form in the lead up ala Dempster, King etc

Now i'm hardly a huge McQualter or Ray fan but they earned their spots to the lead up.

Like Brett Peake in 2010... one of the worst grandfinal performances ever, u can't criticise RL for that. It was a reasonable decision with the info at the time.

It's funny how with pluggers previous criticisms of forumite's comments addressed... he now shifts the goal posts... it's now about who said anything at the time about the game plan rather than the game plan itself.
Mate pick a position and stick with it.

On the 09 GF... I doubt anybody would have gone out of their way to post anything hugely critical... why? Because we were romping towards a GF... even the odd concern was just that... an odd concern.
It was until ppl reflected on 09 as a whole and saw the same patterns emerge in 2010 that the criticism started flowing more freely.

The players gave it their best in the 09 GF and fell short... we all strongly feel that had we kicked more accurately on the day we most likely won. That being said we didn't and in a close fought game you need to maximise everything you do... including the coaching.
We had a team that didn't have as much run as we needed
We had Sean Dempster playing as an ineffective forward
We had Luke Ball on the bench when the game was there to be won and we couldn't get our hands on the pill

We had Lenny Hayes tagged out of the game by Bartel and we had Chapman a player we all identified as THE major threat running around on his own (will pull up the post to prove it if any1 wants)

I don't know that we could have asked anything more of our players... but the coaching was POOR

[Johnny Member]

I notice you have been a member since 2006. Can you show us all your posts critisizing RL's coaching druring 2009 especially the resting of players. Also was 38 points a game winning average good enough for you to say you were wrong about how we won games in 2009? it was the highest winning average in the AFL that year but in your opinion we basically scrabbled wins. Well that is now proven as rubbish. Anyway look forward to all your negative posts about RL in2009.

Our average winning margin in the first 11 games was an incredible 47 points!

Then in the 2nd half, it was merely 27 points.


The signs were there.


Our 'points for' in the first 11 games was 102 points. In the 2nd half it was down to 88.


The signs. They were there.

[Johnny Member]

but in your opinion we basically scrabbled wins.

Once a little fat drunken liar, always a little fat drunken liar.


Any chance of you reminding where I've ever said or even suggested that we basically scrabbled (or scrambled) wins? Because I don't remember saying or thinking anything of the sort.

[dragit]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67756

Spoke with an ex-player on New years Eve who used to play under Ross at the Swans.

He said Ross was the best coach he'd ever had (he'd also played at another MEL club) and "...was a tactical genius".

Not bad accolades!

Tactical geniuses and brilliant assistants don't always make for great head coaches though.

I'm a big Ross fan, but our heads cost us at least one flag. Tactics may have gone us there in the first place, but something above the shoulders was missing in at least 2 of the 3 Grand Finals.

Coaches need tactical brilliance, a great temperament for the role (Ross had both these) but also the ability to get guys to pick fridges up over their heads when they're only really capable of picking up bar fridges.

This is the only area that worries me a bit with him.

[Johnny Member]

and Lyon had nothing to offer once he couldn't.

You make out like Ross was playing at FF…
You don't like him, we get it…

If he wins a flag at Fremantle, then it will be universally accepted that he is a great coach. Until then we will continue this chicken vs egg conversation for eternity & I'm betting on at least 20 more pages on this gem…

It's not that I don't like him.

I actually do quite 'like' him. I've only met him once and it was about 3 days after he took over as coach and was pissed at the Waterside Hotel with his old Fitzroy mates. So I don't know him enough to like or dislike him.

My issue is his coaching. He has some genuine strengths, but overall I believe his philosophies are flawed.

Why did GT take Milne to Adelaide for that prelim if he was so adamant that he couldn't play well interstate?

No idea. What's GT got to do with anything?

[joffaboy]

Lyon should have strategically rested key players, after we secured first or second spot - after 15 wins.
Geelong finished full of running - while we were running on the one spot in the GF. Is it any wonder ?

RL left Ball on the bench.

Geelong and Collingwood coaches were savvy enough to rest players during the year - hence their flags.

Ahh hmmmm - St.Kilda v Hawthorn round 19 in Tassie.

Fair Dinkum some people are cluelss

Maybe should have put Tommy Walsh in to win us both flags hey?

[Johnny Member]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67756

Spoke with an ex-player on New years Eve who used to play under Ross at the Swans.

He said Ross was the best coach he'd ever had (he'd also played at another MEL club) and "...was a tactical genius".

Not bad accolades!

Tactical geniuses and brilliant assistants don't always make for great head coaches though.

I'm a big Ross fan, but our heads cost us at least one flag. Tactics may have gone us there in the first place, but something above the shoulders was missing in at least 2 of the 3 Grand Finals.

Coaches need tactical brilliance, a great temperament for the role (Ross had both these) but also the ability to get guys to pick fridges up over their heads when they're only really capable of picking up bar fridges.

This is the only area that worries me a bit with him.

From memory, wasn't that thread pretty specific in relation to the 'off-field' dramas we were having in 2011?

[Johnny Member]

and Lyon had nothing to offer once he couldn't.

You make out like Ross was playing at FF…
You don't like him, we get it…

If he wins a flag at Fremantle, then it will be universally accepted that he is a great coach. Until then we will continue this chicken vs egg conversation for eternity & I'm betting on at least 20 more pages on this gem…

It's not that I don't like him.

I actually do quite 'like' him. I've only met him once and it was about 3 days after he took over as coach and was pissed at the Waterside Hotel with his old Fitzroy mates. So I don't know him enough to like or dislike him personally, but I have no issue with his public persona at all.

My issue is his coaching. He has some genuine strengths, but overall I believe his philosophies are flawed.

Why did GT take Milne to Adelaide for that prelim if he was so adamant that he couldn't play well interstate?

No idea. What's GT got to do with anything?

[joffaboy]

All these 'we kicked ourselves out of it in the first half' arguments are forgetting one important thing.
The game was there for the taking in the last quarter.

We didn't take it. And Ross made some pretty poor decisions when it counted:
Raph's matchup - got absolutely crucified - Lyon did nothing.
Ball's strange absence when an inside ball winner was crucial.
The fallback panic play of bombing it in to a tired and outmatched Roo.

Good points and the coach should shoulder some of the blame as well as the chokers in front of goal players.

However game would have been over at halftime if the chokers in front of goal had of converted.

Quite simply RodgerFox is trying to rewrite history when the facts and stats speak for themselves.

The players let us down in GF 09. In GF10 luckily Gardiner was injured so Lyon had to switch Blake and Kosi into the ruck, put Gilbo up forward and tag Swan with Ray. Those moves and the play of blokes like Lenny bj Ray and others almost stole us a flag. Both players and coach need praise for that second half performance.

[dragit]

No idea. What's GT got to do with anything?

What's Ross got to do with anything?
Both gone, both did great things for the club, both made mistakes, both admitted so…
You loved Ross when he was here, but now he is gone you bitch about him all day…

[Johnny Member]

No idea. What's GT got to do with anything?

What's Ross got to do with anything?

Well, this thread is about him isn't it?

[saintly]

dempster fwd.
chappy roaming free.
what the F*** was this guy thinking. seriously.
very over rated coach and bloke

he also tried Dempster fwd a number of times, none of them worked previously. why would it then, either.

[Johnny Member]

In GF10 luckily Gardiner was injured so Lyon had to switch Blake and Kosi into the ruck, put Gilbo up forward and tag Swan with Ray. Those moves and the play of blokes like Lenny bj Ray and others almost stole us a flag. Both players and coach need praise for that second half performance.

I totally agree re the 2nd half of the 2010 GF1.

Some very good, unpredictable, attacking and creative moves were made which turned the game on it's ear.

But again, that inability to find a goal whilst Collingwood could find one cost us again.


My question was, and still is, why did he revert back to the predictable and failing structure at the opening bounce the following week? I nearly fell off my chair when I saw it.

He'd finally done something to reverse the trend of our reliance on too few players and our inability to score - which nearly pinched us a flag, then the very next week he reverts back to the old method!! And guess what?? Within about 20 minutes we're 3 goals down and haven't managed to kick a single goal!

He steps outside the square once more, and we get ourselves 7 shots at goal in the next quarter.


The signs were there in 09 that he needed to change, but he just wouldn't do it. The signs are there at Freo still that he needs to change, but he won't.

[Johnny Member]

No idea. What's GT got to do with anything?

What's Ross got to do with anything?
Both gone, both did great things for the club, both made mistakes, both admitted so…
You loved Ross when he was here, but now he is gone you bitch about him all day…

I don't bitch about him all day at all. I think I've probably spent about a total of 20 minutes on this site in about 7 months! So I'm hardly bitching about him all day.

Some perspective please.

[dragit]

Your 20 posts on this thread today suggest you are going okay…