How Many Bad Kicks Can We Carry?

[Batnoe]

As the heading suggests, i am wondering how many bad kicks a team can carry before it is too many and you cant win the big one?

We made the grand finals with workmanlike players that had their role, but the game has changed again and with teams like Carlton, West COast and Hawthorn with beautiful foot skills are we going to get left behind yet again?

Jones is a horrible kick but plays tight. Steven gets Clearances but struggles to hit a target, Gilbert is tall and is lacking confidence. Gram is pretty much hopeless!

I think Gram frustrates me the most out of the lot as he has this 'apparent run from the backline' which i dont see as his kicks generally turn into turnovers and the ball goes over his head just as quick! He also doesnt have a make bone in his body and shirks at every hardball.... I think we are better now that his brother Peake isnt in the team but dropping Gram and playing a Ledger is the logical thing...


Can we play any more than 4 bad kicks?

[dragit]

Seems to be getting more important doesn't it… I like watching Hawthorn when they are playing well.

We drew a GF recently though with 11 of what I would consider ordinary kicks in the side…
gram, dawson, gilbert, blake, eddy, peake, riewoldt, dempster, mcqualter, baker, jones

A players upside has to be pretty strong if they can't kick well…

I don't find Gram as bad as yourself, he takes the game on and generally kicks long, I find CJ frustrating as he generally wheels around looking for a handball, if not kicks the ball 30 meters in the air…

On the flip-side, I haven't seen enough 'good' footy from Siposs to think he should be in the side yet… a beautiful kick obviously, but not much help if he only gets it 5 times - compared to grams 25.

[maverick]

Seems to be getting more important doesn't it… I like watching Hawthorn when they are playing well.

We drew a GF recently though with 11 of what I would consider ordinary kicks in the side…
gram, dawson, gilbert, blake, eddy, peake, riewoldt, dempster, mcqualter, baker, jones

A players upside has to be pretty strong if they can't kick well…

I don't find Gram as bad as yourself, he takes the game on and generally kicks long, I find CJ frustrating as he generally wheels around looking for a handball, if not kicks the ball 30 meters in the air…

On the flip-side, I haven't seen enough 'good' footy from Siposs to think he should be in the side yet… a beautiful kick obviously, but not much help if he only gets it 5 times - compared to grams 25.

I see bad, dodgy and inconsistent differently.

Bad
CJ and Eddy

Dodgy
Raph, Gram, Geary, Baker, Peake & Blake

Inconsistent
Gram, Gilbert, Dawson,

I think Roo, Dempster and Mini are all good kicks.
Roo is just dodgy for goal now, never used to be.

Sometimes bad kicking gets mixed up with poor decision making in my book.

[Beno88]

As much as I'm not a Raph Clarke fan, his kicking is fantastic, it's his awareness and decision making that are below par.

[IluvHarvey]

Interesting re Gram.

He has a better disposal efficiency this year than most senior players in our team.

Overall better than Hayes, Armitage, Stanley, Riewoldt, Gilbert, Dal Santo, Steven, Montagna, Milne and LEDGER!

In regards to clangers he averages 1.5 a game.

Only Riewoldt 1.1 and Cripps 1.2 Average better.


I honestly don't believe Gram is as bad as people want him to be.

[SainterK]

He has been much better ILH, really trying to make his kicks less bomby, getting quite a lot of it, and rebounding really well.

[Junction Oval]

Turnovers are sooo costly these days. Poor kicks put enormous pressure on the backline, when the ball rebounds.

Who would you choose - a good positional player, but a poor kick (Gilbert), or a poor decision maker, but a good kick (Raph) ??

Yes, we continue to carry too many poor kicks, but unfortunately there is not much that we can do at the moment - it's a recruiting/list management problem.

[Dave McNamara]

Interesting re Gram.

He has a better disposal efficiency this year than most senior players in our team.

Overall better than Hayes, Armitage, Stanley, Riewoldt, Gilbert, Dal Santo, Steven, Montagna, Milne and LEDGER!

In regards to clangers he averages 1.5 a game.

Only Riewoldt 1.1 and Cripps 1.2 Average better.


I honestly don't believe Gram is as bad as people want him to be.

Hi ILH. Personally I'm not sure that people want Grammy to be bad. I certainly don't.

I just want him to be like the other guys... trying his guts out. Hey, I'd even settle for something approaching that...

My question to all the Grammy defenders on here, and hey good on you all for doing so, but, do you honestly believe that Grammy is trying his guts out?

[BigMart]

Yes I do....

What makes you think he isn't???

Don't mistake composure with cruising..... Jack Steven could take a leaf and compose himself when he has the footy.

[bobmurray]

Bad kicking.......

Probably another reason why we'll have September off this year...

[Dr Spaceman]

Bad kicking.......

Probably another reason why we'll have September off this year...

"You should be in the cheer squad bob; I'm PUMPED!!!"

[bobmurray]

Bad kicking.......

Probably another reason why we'll have September off this year...

"You should be in the cheer squad bob; I'm PUMPED!!!"

I could have pretended we are contenders but you wouldn't have believed me...

[Dave McNamara]

Yes I do....

What makes you think he isn't???

Don't mistake composure with cruising..... Jack Steven could take a leaf and compose himself when he has the footy.

Thanks for your reply Mart. You are the only Grammy defender (to date) to break the deafening silence on this. Good on you for that!

IMHO however I look at it a bit differently. Yes, Grammy is certainly a very composed player. IMHO it's one of the reasons he's capable of being so damn good. I won't fault his composure. Not putting-in though... as I've written elsewhere, I don't see the effort to get over and help a team mate by creating another number at the ball, shepherding, blocking, going third defender up, running to lay a tackle, putting his body between the ball and an opponent... That's why he comes across to me as lazy and not fully commited to his team mates.

I've been patient due to injury and the (undoubted) stress of the whole Lovett affair, but I personally have had enough. He's contributing little positively, but too much negatively to our on-field output and off-field development. If he won't put in, I say stand aside and let a Ledger, Sippos, Cripps, Newnes, Ross, Dunnell type come in and start their development. They are our future. Grammy isn't showing any signs that he wants to be part of our future.

PS: I agree with you re Jack S, but I reckon he's getting better and better. For mine is already a beauty, and will be a GUN! A great example of giving some continuity to a young talent. Go Jack!

PPS: Prove me wrong Grammy! Please! Go Grammy!

[IluvHarvey]

Thanks for your reply Mart. You are the only Grammy defender (to date) to break the deafening silence on this. Good on you for that!

IMHO however I look at it a bit differently. Yes, Grammy is certainly a very composed player. IMHO it's one of the reasons he's capable of being so damn good. I won't fault his composure. Not putting-in though... as I've written elsewhere, I don't see the effort to get over and help a team mate by creating another number at the ball, shepherding, blocking, going third defender up, running to lay a tackle, putting his body between the ball and an opponent... That's why he comes across to me as lazy and not fully commited to his team mates.

I've been patient due to injury and the (undoubted) stress of the whole Lovett affair, but I personally have had enough. He's contributing little positively, but too much negatively to our on-field output and off-field development. If he won't put in, I say stand aside and let a Ledger, Sippos, Cripps, Newnes, Ross, Dunnell type come in and start their development. They are our future. Grammy isn't showing any signs that he wants to be part of our future.

PS: I agree with you re Jack S, but I reckon he's getting better and better. For mine is already a beauty, and will be a GUN! A great example of giving some continuity to a young talent. Go Jack!

PPS: Prove me wrong Grammy! Please! Go Grammy!

No deafening silence here just haven't been here again since I posted.

Re Grams apparent Laziness - I'm sorry but don't buy into that.
There is a reason that he continues to get games under a third coach. What is it? I can only make assumptions here because I don't pretend to know what happens inside the coaching ranks at AFL level.
My theory is every team in the AFL or even right down to grass roots football (I hate that term but I guess thats what it is) needs players to play outside roles. I have played with guys who the coach has told to hang out the back of packs to recieve the ball while they're free. I have even seen one guy in our TAC team be berated by our coach for disobeying team orders and jumping into "scrums". Gram is one of the players on our team who I believe is this person (Joey the other). So what we may seem as not putting his body on the line or standing away from contests could very well be a direct instruction from the coach.

Now in regards to his kicking. He does have the ability to chop the ball up but who doesn't. And I honestly believe it isn't as bad as some believe.

[SainterK]

He isn't lazy.

Ryder has the same problem I reckon, looks laconic (?) when he plays.

I think his running style maybe looks casual?

Have absolutely no issues with the amount of ball and contests he has got to this year, there was one I especially remember v Hawks were he made sure he got back to spoil and that little stinker Cyril managed to unluckily get his boot to it at the last second.

I have asked a few questions of him previously, but he is really working hard this year IMO.

[Old Mate]

Gram has been in our best few players this year IMO.

[gringo]

He isn't lazy.

Ryder has the same problem I reckon, looks laconic (?) when he plays.

I think his running style maybe looks casual?

Have absolutely no issues with the amount of ball and contests he has got to this year, there was one I especially remember v Hawks were he made sure he got back to spoil and that little stinker Cyril managed to unluckily get his boot to it at the last second.

I have asked a few questions of him previously, but he is really working hard this year IMO.

Some players look cruisey -Dal Santo looks like he goes easy but if you look at his stats for contested possessions and tackles etc. he obviously does the work. Gram is probably directed to keep his feet and his role is possibly as the linking runner rather than the contester. If the coaches are seeing his game positively you have to assume he isn't going too badly. He really had his detractors last year after appearing to injure himself in the finals the year before and never looking like his groin was unrestricted.