In defence of Nettlefold

[plugger66]

It was after my playing days but got a feeling Jim Francis coached them for a season or two but may be getting confused with Kenny Walker who I know actually played for the saints as did Brian Walsh

Yep there has been a few. Chris McAsey played one game, Matthew Vane played, Barry Mau played 3 and maybe one or two others. Brian Walsh was the best of them though.

[Johnny Member]

Only inaccurate kicking saw us lose the 2009 grand final...We were 0.7 in front at 3/4 time...Change that to 3.4 or 4.3 or 5.2 and it's game over and we have our second flag.

I don't agree. I don't agree in the slightest.

It was the inability to kick goals when we needed them that cost us. We needed to find one. Just one. We dominated play but couldn't find a goal due to the inept and neglected offensive game plan - or lack thereof.

We just couldn't squeeze a goal from nowhere. Geelong however, could and did.

In 2010, the same. In the last 5 minutes, we just couldn't pluck a goal from nowhere. Collingwood did though against the flow. But we couldn't.

That's what cost us. And that's Lyon's fault.

He gets full credit for his defensive innovations, but must take full credit for having no answers to the problem of being able to kick goals.

[SainterK]

Don't know what I think about it now.

I must say, hearing Lyon recently talking OTC this year in a manner like 'I gave them opportunities to win, yet they ran into open goals and missed' irked me a little bit.

The coach is in it together with the players, he seems to be distancing himself from the loss more and more as time goes on. Wasn't his fault Luke missed minutes, wasn't his fault guys missed running into open goals...

Mick got criticised for doing similar on AFL360, talking about certain players letting him down in last years GF.

I guess I agree with you in part, that the game plan required absolute accuracy, because it didn't produce many scoring opportunities.

[Johnny Member]

For us to get open, 'easy' scoring opportunites under Lyon's game plan, it seemed that our midfield had to be completely dominating the opposition. Not just be on top of them, but utterly monstering them.
If our midfield wasn't dominating, we couldn't score when required. Scrambling the ball forward and 'bombing it in' was our only apparent strategy.


The fact that in the first half against Geelong we were able to get 'easy' shots at goal I think was more a reflection of the players performance than the coach's or his game plan.

When things tightened up (ie. Bartel went to Lenny), we didn't get 'easy' shots - the 'bomb it in' strategy was once again called upon. But Geelong were able to find goals when they weren't dominating us. And Collingwood found goals (one in particular) when they weren't dominating us - we however couldn't. The only time we seemed to be able to 'find' a goal against the flow and\or when we really needed it was when Riewoldt single handedly did it.


To have a game plan only allows free scoring if your midfield is utterly dominating the opposition is negligent.

[Johnny Member]

For the record, the same thing is unfolding at Freo.

They struggle to generate scores and ironically, as they get better at Lyon's game plan, it'll get worse and worse for them.

[loris]

Wow I've witnessed 19 of them ...enough to pick a side with one on the bench
Might have a go at that , but I'm struggling to remember Ecca Guy ever coaching
I go back to Les Foote as a kid down at the junction with my dad and remember vividly watching Keith Drinan kicking out from fullback as I stood on the fence behind the goals
Will have a go at putting them in some sort of line-up for fun

"starsign"....................... like you I'm struggling to remember "The Tank" ever coaching. Maybe Jeansy had a cold one night and Eric took over training eh??

Hey that's where I used to stand to watch the footy. Right behind the goals. Dad used to get beer cans for us kids to stand on. There was a single row of a wooden bench seating. All the old ladies, with their hand knitted Saints beanies and wollen scarves would sit there knitting, dear old grandmothers with their thermos of tea and sanwiches, but they sure could give opposition players a mouthful.

Ah Keith Drinan, he was one of my all time favs too. Those wonderful drop kicks of his out from goal......... sublime.

I also liked our FF in those days....................... Peter Bennett..................... now he was a bit of eye candy when I got into my teenage years. He married Marge McQuade who was an olympic swimmer. They were the 'glam couple' of that era, like Judd and Twiggy the press used to fawn over their every happening.

Can you recall jumping the fench at 3/4 time and listening to "Killer's" rants............... spine tingling stuff.

[Life Long Saint]

Only inaccurate kicking saw us lose the 2009 grand final...We were 0.7 in front at 3/4 time...Change that to 3.4 or 4.3 or 5.2 and it's game over and we have our second flag.

I don't agree. I don't agree in the slightest.

It was the inability to kick goals when we needed them that cost us. We needed to find one. Just one. We dominated play but couldn't find a goal due to the inept and neglected offensive game plan - or lack thereof.

We just couldn't squeeze a goal from nowhere. Geelong however, could and did.

In 2010, the same. In the last 5 minutes, we just couldn't pluck a goal from nowhere. Collingwood did though against the flow. But we couldn't.

That's what cost us. And that's Lyon's fault.

He gets full credit for his defensive innovations, but must take full credit for having no answers to the problem of being able to kick goals.

Well then I am not sure which Grand Final in 2009 you watched!
The breakdown of the stats shows that we had 58 inside 50's to 42, we were more efficient with our disposals/scoring shot and won that 13.96 to 17.70...but the key lost stat was conversion...We went at 39.1% compared to 60.0% of Geelong.
The two main offenders were Schneider (2.3) and Milne (0.2).

So I'd blame the players for not finishing off the work in front of goal rather than the coaches game structure. Remember that this was the season that gave us a 20-2 H&A record...We must have been doing something right! All three losses combined were by less than three goals.

[Johnny Member]

Remember that this was the season that gave us a 20-2 H&A record...We must have been doing something right! All three losses combined were by less than three goals.

That's right. We were good enough to win 20 games and very nearly be undefeated - yet remained outside the top 4 for 'Average Goals For'. Geelong were 2nd in this stat.

Geelong found that extra goal when required - we didn't have it.


In 2010, we were outside the top 4 for that again. Collingwood were 2nd. Once again, they found that goal when needed - we couldn't.

It doesn't matter how many shots at goal we had in the first half again Geelong. In the 2nd half they had more scoring shots than us.

We only managed 68 points that day. 68! That's a forgotten stat amongst all the 'we would have won had we kicked straight' stuff. It's appalling really.



Geelong kicked 5 goals 7 behins in the second half that day. We managed only 2 goals in a half of footy once Lenny's dominace was thwarted. Lyon had no answers to that.

Once the domination stopped, so did the scoring chances.



It's worth noting this stat too:

Us Them
9 Goals Kicked 12
10 Behinds Kicked 8
4 Rushed Behinds 0


We only kicked 2 more behinds than them. And they had more shots at goal than us.

[Johnny Member]

This stat for mine, is the reason we lost. And it wasn't a once off under Lyon either:
Us Them
58 Inside 50s 42
2.52 In50s Per Scoring Shot 2.10
6.44 Inside 50s Per Goal 3.50
32.8% % In50s Score 47.6%
15.5% % In50s Goal 28.6%


We had no system going forward or into the F50. We scrambled it forward predictably and with no system at all.

[Life Long Saint]

Once the domination stopped, so did the scoring chances.

Doesn't matter what forward structure you have in place then does it?
If we can't get the ball, we can't score goals!

[Johnny Member]

Once the domination stopped, so did the scoring chances.

Doesn't matter what forward structure you have in place then does it?
If we can't get the ball, we can't score goals!

There's a difference between 'breaking even', being 'on top of them', and 'dominating them'.


You need to be able to find, manufacture goals in either scenario. Geelong and Collingwood did against in Grand Finals and subsequently won them.

What I'm saying (granted it's merely my opinion) is that unless we were 'dominating them' in the midfield, we found it near impossible to kick goals.

Under Lyon, it was very rare for us to get clean F50 entries and 'easy' scoring opportunities whilst we were 'breaking even' or even 'on top of them'.

My theory for this is that the ultra defensive mindset meant that unless our midfield had absolute complete, clean and definite control of the ball and play - our players weren't allowed to put themselves in attacking positions. They weer all setting up defensively.

[Scollop]

Lyon coached us to a 20-2 home and away season where both losses were by less than a kick ......

His legacy reflects an overriding theme of poor development and lack of opportunity provided to youngsters throughout his tenure. The board and the CEO were not responsible for team selection. That was ultimately Lyon's choices. I see this weakness in his coaching as a lack of creating depth in the team and a weakness which may underline some of the reasons we lost on the big stage.

These are some questions I'd love for someone to pose to Lyon and Misson and the coaching assistants;

1. Some niggles and some injuries starting creeping into the line-up in late 2009. The fact that Lyon and his crew rested players in round 19 means that they acknowledged that modern day AFL players do it tough - they need a freshen up leading in to September action. With a grueling running game required to set up the right zones, and the taxing nature and commitment to his defensive gameplan, in addition to a schedule of current day travel interstate, why did Lyon need to get 18 wins in a row before he realised that there'd be a price to pay at some point?

2. Why oh why would you not plan for finals after 15 or 16 wins? Wouldn't you think if top 2 is sown up by round 16, that it is time for the senior coach to CHANGE something and try some youngsters and see WHO is willing to put their hand up? Wouldn't you think it would be important to try and manage your list and simultaneously challenge the group and be able to ensure that there is some depth if there are injuries or poor form at the pointy end of the year? Wouldn't this also send a message to the playing list and just make them not take their spot for granted?

3. You mentioned we won 20 and lost 2 in home and away. Where did these losses come? They came at the WRONG END didn't they!! The pointy end of the season is not the right time to be losing momentum. If as coach you come to the realisation that some of your players will definitely need a freshen up leading in to September action, then wouldn't it make sense to start planning to rotate some blokes in the middle of the year? Does a coach have any control as to the teams momentum?? Damn right he does!! Wouldn't it be quite difficult to get continuity and momentum if you're resting/changing more than a third of the team at the pointy end?

Yes - Lyon coached well. Yes, he did an overall good job, but ultimately he has to take responsibility for Saints line-up falling short. The best team of the finals series usually wins the GF, and many times it's not the team who wins the most games in Home and Away rounds. The buck stops with the senior coach.

[saintly]

i remeber in 2009, Laidly did not have a job, and there there many in media asking for Laidly to xome in to the coaching group for 6 weeks for opposition analysis etc.

[saintspremiers]

So have we had more coaches in 115 years than US Presidents?