Nick Dal Santo - it's time to stand up!

[perfectionist]

Sometimes, it's interesting to listen to the views and opinions of supporters of opposing clubs. On Nick, almost universally, they say he is a champ. You have to wonder about that. Do they mean he is a very good player who dominates games, or a very good player who never really hurts a team when it really counts? Personally, I have regarded him as a highly skilled player who, surprisingly, lacks a lot of confidence. So many times over the years he has dished off to a player in a worse position rather than taking a shot for himself. Is this unbridled selflessness or a weakness of personal confidence?

Whatever, a cold look at the GFs of 2009-10 show that he contributed nothing when the heat was on. In many H&A games, he has come to the fore after a hard tag in the first three quarters. No such comeback in the 2009-10 GFs. Then again, he was playing against the best in those games. But if you want to be the best, then you have to beat the best when it counts.

It is instructive to consider that, of all the players who have played since he began in 2002, he has missed the least amount of games, on average, than any other player. He was injured in the preseason of 2003, and missed the first 14 games, other than that, he has never missed more than one game at a time through injury. Tossing his body in when legs and arms are flying, has not been his style, and it has served him well over the years. The question is, does it serve the Saints well?

My message to Nick is this. We can't afford onlookers - even skillful ones. Step up.

[whiskers3614]

NFI!

[R. Harvey 3 votes!]

If you are trying to win the prize for the biggest piece of rubbish written on this website in 2012...Then congratulations you are are leading the pack early doors! WTF???

[saintspremiers]

NFI!

Agree. I think perfectionist has been on the turps.

Dal is pure silk. He is an outside player and complements Lenny perfectly.

Dal makes time slow down. He's a magician with the ball. Sublime.

[Legendary]

Geez.

He has been in the top 3 players at St Kilda for contested possessions and hard ball gets every season for the last 3 years.

Facts don't lie. Neither does 3rd in the Brownlow (twice).

He carried us last year.


The fact that this thread even exists is ridiculous.

[AccidentallyTim]

Look at his inside work last year when Lenny went down.

Dal has skills..

[rhino]

Because of his great disposal and general movement dal is perceived by some as being an outside player yet facts are dal gets the hard contested ball and does the outside stuff. Check the stats. No diff to pendelbury in this way but has done it for longer. Agree Dal carried saints last year. Fish was good but personally bemused dal was not clear bnf last year.

[gringo]

Use the Rolls Royce as a ram raid car so you can pinch a telly but end up in lock up? Complimentary players make teams not 22 of the same, he's got amazing skills so why smash him so he looks like he's doing what the others do.

[Sobraz]

yeh, nah...

agree with the prize for biggest piece of rubbish for 2012...

will be hard to beat..

[Junction Oval]

After 4,000+ posts, we get one like this from the Perfectionist - has he really been watching? Some people are never satisfied - read the other poster comments to get a better perspective on Dal's actual performance. Since Lenny's absence, in support of the team, Dal has changed from a very skillful an outside receiver, to a very strong inside attacker on the ball.

Third in the Brownlow last year and 2 nd in the B&F, says it all in my view.

[The Jeff]

NFI!

Agree. I think perfectionist has been on the turps.

Dal is pure silk. He is an outside player and complements Lenny perfectly.

Dal makes time slow down. He's a magician with the ball. Sublime.

Agree Saintspremiers that he is silk. But to call him just an outside player sells him short.

Because of his premier ball use and sublime evasive skills in traffic, people seem to forget how good his contested work is and the fact that his tackles stick better than most!

One of the reasons Dal is so valuable to us, particularly in Lenny's absence last year, is because he can win his own ball!

[SainterK]

His only problem is that he is too consistent, doesn't get noticed because he is ALWAYS solid.

[Dave McNamara]

Hi Perfectionist. I reckon you're one smart guy. (Or is it grrrrrl? Sorry, I don't actually know your gender???) I just know that you're a big Nicky Dal fan, and I reckon wanted to generate a bit more Dal-luvin' on this site. And your clever tactic is working a treat... Keep 'em coming.

[Saintersss]

Dal Santo has come from being an overrated player to one of the most underrated players in the league. Can't believe how little recognition this bloke gets.

[BigMart]

His finals record stacks up..... He was well tagged (as good players are) in the gf's by great taggers....but he's not on his own with average GFs

His other finals have been excellent.....

He ain't no outside player..... Never was solely outside, now he is probably more inside

[widereceiver]

Of the players talked of as possible trades at the end of 2012, I think he is the most valuable and consistent. I will be pissed orf to see him even considered as a trade.

[plugger66]

I just want to know who he thinks is worse as a player, Dal or jack. Thoughts?

[bergsone]

Dont believe i read that.Maybe i have been watching another NDS

[MCG-Unit]

I thought Dal Santo had been one of their most consistent players this year - not that stats are everything - but here are some of his numbers for the first 3 Rounds (no more than 85% game time)


Port 28 disp 14 cont 68% Eff 5 clearances 4 tackles 16 pressure acts 2 goals 8 score involv

G Coast 26 disp 13 cont 73% Eff 7 clearances 6 tackles 19 pressure acts 10 score involv

WB 23 disp 15 cont 74% Eff 5 clearances 3 tackles 14 pressure acts 1 goal 7 score involv

I've never understood how folks say he is an outside type - 42 cont poss this year, think that's the most of any Saint

[vacuous space]

Contested possessions per game (career):

Dal - 8.73
Lenny - 8.65

On a per minute basis, Lenny probably has Dal covered, but Lenny has also spent far less of his career with a tagger stapled to him. Either way, Dal has always been a lot harder at the ball than he's credited for. Not Lenny hard, but is that really a valid criticism? How many players have you seen who are as hard at it as Lenny?

It's quite ridiculous to criticise him for playing too much. It's not 'instructive' of anything. It just means he gets up week after week. As a guy who logs 100+ minutes every week, he's putting an enormous number of Ks into his legs. All the while he's winning a ton of ball and excecuting skills with few peers. I don't know how anybody gets off implying he's soft. He's one of the greatest Saints you'll ever have the pleasure of seeing. It's a pity you can't appreciate him.

[matrix]

career stats (no 2012)
games 216
handballs 1910 average 8.8 per game
% effective disposals 73.3
ball gets 2327 average of 10.8 a game
goal assists 190 average of 0.9 a game
effective clearances 530 average of 2,5 a game
% of effective clearances 60.2
contested possessions 2133 average of 9.9 a game
first possessions 798 average of 3.7 a game
effective tackles 587 average of 2.7 a game
% of effective tackles 58.3
effective disposals 3511 average of 16.3 a game
tackles 1007 avergae of 4.7 a game
clearances 880 average of 4.1 a game
scoring assists 327 average of 1.5 a game
kicks to advantage 1452 average of 6.7 a game
inside 50s 739 average of 3.4 a game
one percenters 975 average of 4,5 a game
playmakers 421 average of 1.9 a game
rebound 50s 575 average of 25 a game

2011
handballs 277 (12 .04 a game)
effective disposal percentage 70.06
ball gets 349
goal assists 21
effective clearances 67 (2.91 a game)
contested possessions 293 (12.73 a game)
first possessions 128 (5,5 a game)
effective tackles 94 (4.08 a game)
effective disposals 435 (18.91 a game)
tackles 140 (6.08 a game)
clearances 124 (5,39 a game)
scoring assists 38 (1.6 a game)
kicks to advantage (6.04 a game)
inside 50s 75 (3.26 a game)
one percenters 124 (5.39 a game)
playmaker acts 54 (2.34 a game)
rebound 50s 87 (3.78 a game)


career season averages

2002 (played 18 games)
handballs 4.1
% of effective disposals 64.7
ball gets 6.8
goal assists 0 .6
effective clearances 1.2
% of effective clearances 63.6
contested possessions 6.4
first possessions 1.9
effective tackles 1.3
% of effective tackles 41.8
effective disposals 6.7
tackles 3.1
clearances 1.8
scoring assists 0.8
kicks to advantage 2.1
inside 50s 1.8
one percenters 3.4
playmakers 0 .7
rebound 50s 1.7

2003 (played 8 games)
handballs 7.6
% of effective disposals 67.5
ball gets 9.4
goal assists 0 .9
effective clearances 1.6
% of effective clearances 59.1
contested possessions 8.4
first possessions 2.4
effective tackles 3.0
% of effective tackles 48.0
effective disposals 13.0
tackles 6.2
clearances 2.8
scoring assists 1.1
kicks to advantage 4.4
inside 50s 2.8
one percenters 5.4
playmakers 1.5
rebound 50s 2.1

2004 (played 25 games)
handballs 7.4
% of effective disposals 74.4
ball gets 9.7
goal assists 0 .9
effective clearances 1.9
% of effective clearances 57.3
contested possessions 8.9
first possessions 2.6
effective tackles 2.4
% of effective tackles 53.0
effective disposals 13.7
tackles 4.6
clearances 3.3
scoring assists 1.5
kicks to advantage 5.7
inside 50s 3.7
one percenters 4.4
playmakers 2.1
rebound 50s 2.1

2005 (played 24 games)
handballs 8.3
% of effective disposals 71.4
ball gets 10.8
goal assists 0 .9
effective clearances 8.3
% of effective clearances 65.6
contested possessions 10.8
first possessions 3.4
effective tackles 2.7
% of effective tackles 59.6
effective disposals 16.0
tackles 4.5
clearances 3.8
scoring assists 2.1
kicks to advantage 7.3
inside 50s 3.4
one percenters 4.7
playmakers 2.4
rebound 50s 2.5

2006 (played 23 games)
handballs 8.1
% of effective disposals 80.8
ball gets 11. 0
goal assists 0 .8
effective clearances 2.8
% of effective clearances 67.4
contested possessions 10.1
first possessions 3.1
effective tackles 2.9
% of effective tackles 57.8
effective disposals 17.8
tackles 5.0
clearances 4.1
scoring assists 1.6
kicks to advantage 9.2
inside 50s 3.3
one percenters 4.7
playmakers 2.3
rebound 50s 1.8

2007 (played 22 games)
handballs 8.5
% of effective disposals 78.1
ball gets 10.3
goal assists 1.0
effective clearances 2.5
% of effective clearances 60.7
contested possessions 10.0
first possessions 3.0
effective tackles 2.8
% of effective tackles 62.2
effective disposals 17.2
tackles 4.5
clearances 4.0
scoring assists 1.8
kicks to advantage 7.6
inside 50s 3.6
one percenters 4.5
playmakers 2.5
rebound 50s 3.3

2008 (played 24 games)
handballs 8.2
% of effective disposals 74.5
ball gets 9.2
goal assists 0 .9
effective clearances 2.6
% of effective clearances 68.5
contested possessions 8.8
first possessions 3.0
effective tackles 2.2
% of effective tackles 54.5
effective disposals 16.7
tackles 4.1
clearances 3.8
scoring assists 1.3
kicks to advantage 7.8
inside 50s 3.7
one percenters 3.8
playmakers 1.4
rebound 50s 2.9

2009 (played 24 games)
handballs 11.8
% of effective disposals 72.4
ball gets 12.1
goal assists 1.1
effective clearances 3.2
% of effective clearances 54.6
contested possessions 10.4
first possessions 5.2
effective tackles 2.5
% of effective tackles 59.4
effective disposals 20.4
tackles 4.2
clearances 5.9
scoring assists 1.8
kicks to advantage 7.8
inside 50s 4.4
one percenters 4.2
playmakers 2.0
rebound 50s 3.0

2010 (played 25 games)
handballs 10.4
% of effective disposals 71.2
ball gets 11.5
goal assists 0 .7
effective clearances 2.6
% of effective clearances 58.0
contested possessions 10.4
first possessions 5.4
effective tackles 3.1
% of effective tackles 62.9
effective disposals 17.9
tackles 5.0
clearances 4.5
scoring assists 1.1
kicks to advantage 6.7
inside 50s 3.5
one percenters 5.0
playmakers 1.6
rebound 50s 3.0


in 2009 he ranked 2nd in clearances per game 3rd in total clearances, 3rd in total kicks and 5th in total disposals

in 2011:
9th in total disposals
14th in total handballs
17th in total 1st possessions
13th in total contested possessions
9th in total run and bounce
20th in clearances per game
11th in run and bounce per game
19th in total kicks
16th in total tackles
16th in total clearances
16th in total uncontested possessions
9th in disposals per game
20th in contested possessions per game

in the last 7 years he has not averaged under 71% for effective disposals

[Con Gorozidis]

are we talking about the guy who was our best best player and nearly won a brownlow last year when we totally sucked?
OH that guy!
ffs.

[bergholt]

very rarely do you see a saintsational thread which contains so much consensus. even plugger and bigmart are on the same side with this one!

perfectionist, it might be worth rethinking your opinion, seeing that you're in a minority of one.

for what it's worth, last week he had 23 touches - 15 were contested - and 5 clearances. he also had 6 bounces and kicked 1.2, should maybe have had 2.1. and his disposal efficiency was 74% despite two-thirds of his disposals being under pressure. that's because he's an inside player AND an outside player.

the guy's a star and in the last two years he's really hit his straps.

[dragit]

Dud, just like Montagna.

[perfectionist]

Dud, just like Montagna.

Not quite, but he does have some similarities. If you can bear it, have a look at the 2009GF and 2010GF1, as I have done in recent days. Both players were seemingly heavily tagged as neither made any significant contribution, especially when it counted in the last quarter. We have two of this type of "outside" player. Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn have none. West Coast and Collingwood have one. Leigh Montagna has endeavoured to get more involved but simply lacks the physical strength or height to get handballs clear of a pack. Nick has more physical strength, but obviously not as much as Lenny. Both are about the same height.

It seems that most are satisfied with his performances over the years, satisfied with his performances in GFs. I note that this year, he has not received one vote from the coach - our coach, and that hasn't been against the best competition. There is no doubt, that with Lenny out last year, he took some of the responsibility and had a good year, a year that finished in the EF. He can either accept that he can be tagged out of big games or do something about it. Hopefully, he is not as relaxed and comfortable with his past performances as most seem to be on this board. I'm not. He needs to improve, like all the players, especially those with talent who have been held to poor games against the best competition.