Reading your Nic you should be in on the conversation......
Yes plugger, you do need that to happen....
Zac Dawson rejects St Kilda's offer
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dragit
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Dr Spaceman wrote:Sorry I missed that one dragit.dragit wrote:He hasn't been delisted so far… so speculative bulldust… and cricket, and mankinis and my potato conversation which no-one else joined in on.bobmurray wrote:Has he gone yet or is it 13 pages of speculative bulldust
Do you have a chip on your shoulder?
spudsational.
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Moccha
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Mate you call yourself a school teacher?BigMart wrote:A ten page thread on Dawson
surely he doesnt deserve that anyway.....so this time I dont even feel guity about ruining a thread....
And its cricket season....I prefer to chat about that than a GOP that is no longer a saint...
I hope you didn't teach maths!
This is 14 pages of crap!
Another opportunity awaits!
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whiskers3614
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Thing is, not everyone has bagged him.dragit wrote:I hope Zac gets to read this…
Be awesome for his confidence, ten pages of bagging him then cricket analysis with a sprinkling spud variety chat.
Most realise what a pickle he leaves St Kilda in if he goes, yet he is reportedly choosing to go for more money.
I'd have more admiration for him if he did an Armo, worked his backside off on a 12 month contract, and make it hard for the club to not reward him at the end of 2012.
I don't agree with the character assassinations, they are terrible and people ought to be ashamed when they post that kind of rubbish.
I do implore Saints fans though, if you wouldn't like your family members spoken about in the manner you bag players, then don't post it and let that be your barometer.
Think you'd be pretty ignorant not to be aware that players, loved ones and family don't check in here to see what's being written about various players.
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dragit
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I honestly wouldn't begrudge anyone taking an offer of roughly double pay,SainterK wrote:Thing is, not everyone has bagged him.dragit wrote:I hope Zac gets to read this…
Be awesome for his confidence, ten pages of bagging him then cricket analysis with a sprinkling spud variety chat.
Most realise what a pickle he leaves St Kilda in if he goes, yet he is reportedly choosing to go for more money.
I'd have more admiration for him if he did an Armo, worked his backside off on a 12 month contract, and make it hard for the club to not reward him at the end of 2012.
I don't agree with the character assassinations, they are terrible and people ought to be ashamed when they post that kind of rubbish.
I do implore Saints fans though, if you wouldn't like your family members spoken about in the manner you bag players, then don't post it and let that be your barometer.
Think you'd be pretty ignorant not to be aware that players, loved ones and family don't check in here to see what's being written about various players.
I'm not sure Roo would be able to say no to a 1.8 mil $ per year offer?
I reckon Armo would have taken a double pay offer had it been forthcoming… these guys are dispensed by the clubs at will but expected to remain loyal in an industry that you would be very lucky to have 10 years in.
Loyalty to a point is fine, but expecting people to sacrifice potentially half their wage is completely unreasonable IMO.
Not sure with Armo, I don't know the situation, he was strongly linked to the Bombers from memory?dragit wrote:I honestly wouldn't begrudge anyone taking an offer of roughly double pay,SainterK wrote:Thing is, not everyone has bagged him.dragit wrote:I hope Zac gets to read this…
Be awesome for his confidence, ten pages of bagging him then cricket analysis with a sprinkling spud variety chat.
Most realise what a pickle he leaves St Kilda in if he goes, yet he is reportedly choosing to go for more money.
I'd have more admiration for him if he did an Armo, worked his backside off on a 12 month contract, and make it hard for the club to not reward him at the end of 2012.
I don't agree with the character assassinations, they are terrible and people ought to be ashamed when they post that kind of rubbish.
I do implore Saints fans though, if you wouldn't like your family members spoken about in the manner you bag players, then don't post it and let that be your barometer.
Think you'd be pretty ignorant not to be aware that players, loved ones and family don't check in here to see what's being written about various players.
I'm not sure Roo would be able to say no to a 1.8 mil $ per year offer?
I reckon Armo would have taken a double pay offer had it been forthcoming… these guys are dispensed by the clubs at will but expected to remain loyal in an industry that you would be very lucky to have 10 years in.
Loyalty to a point is fine, but expecting people to sacrifice potentially half their wage is completely unreasonable IMO.
So you really think the reported 300K is double what he will be offered next year at the Saints?
It's a unique situation, because if it was up to him, he would have zero market value right now given he was going to give up footy.
Everything else aside, couldn't he have asked to be traded?
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dragit
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Admittedly we don't have any idea on the figures, can only go (wrongly or rightly) on what has been reported, we do know that we have a tight cap and Pelchen indicated that the uncontracted players would need to take a cut if they were to stay…SainterK wrote:Not sure with Armo, I don't know the situation, he was strongly linked to the Bombers from memory?dragit wrote:I honestly wouldn't begrudge anyone taking an offer of roughly double pay,SainterK wrote:Thing is, not everyone has bagged him.dragit wrote:I hope Zac gets to read this…
Be awesome for his confidence, ten pages of bagging him then cricket analysis with a sprinkling spud variety chat.
Most realise what a pickle he leaves St Kilda in if he goes, yet he is reportedly choosing to go for more money.
I'd have more admiration for him if he did an Armo, worked his backside off on a 12 month contract, and make it hard for the club to not reward him at the end of 2012.
I don't agree with the character assassinations, they are terrible and people ought to be ashamed when they post that kind of rubbish.
I do implore Saints fans though, if you wouldn't like your family members spoken about in the manner you bag players, then don't post it and let that be your barometer.
Think you'd be pretty ignorant not to be aware that players, loved ones and family don't check in here to see what's being written about various players.
I'm not sure Roo would be able to say no to a 1.8 mil $ per year offer?
I reckon Armo would have taken a double pay offer had it been forthcoming… these guys are dispensed by the clubs at will but expected to remain loyal in an industry that you would be very lucky to have 10 years in.
Loyalty to a point is fine, but expecting people to sacrifice potentially half their wage is completely unreasonable IMO.
So you really think the reported 300K is double what he will be offered next year at the Saints?
It's a unique situation, because if it was up to him, he would have zero market value right now given he was going to give up footy.
Everything else aside, couldn't he have asked to be traded?
I'm guessing Zac would have been on between 150-200K?
The reported deal from freo is between 300-350K?
Maybe he was happy to stay with us if he were to get a regulation pay rise - to say 250K, but instead is being asked to take less meanwhile another club - dockets - chimes in with an offer around double, pretty hard to knock back…
Who knows, he may end up staying anyway…
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The Redeemer
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Kaspa was more than a good honest back up. At certain times he kept out Big Lee, Bichel, Reiffel et al.BigMart wrote:Yes we should have done a trade for him.... I suppose we wanted to keep him...
Cricket again
Kaspa - a very good shield bowler 450 odd wickets 1991-2006....he did however only play 38 tests and took 110 odd wickets at 33avg...he was very much a back up bowler....he relied a lot on injuries to get a game in the Aus side...good honest back up...
Dizzy....his stats dont actually indicate his true ability and performance.....and his decline in 2005 was sad to see, he was a fantasic fast bowler...attacking length, perfect foil for Pidg and Bing....smart bowler aswell....
Bit like Bruce Reid, if Gillespie's body had not failed him early doors, he would be remembered a absolute champion......as it is, he would be considered a good openining bowler....
Like the three aforementioned they all were given periods of time in the test team and performed well as suitable 3rd choice bowlers
Gillespie had issues with his body much like McGrath, Lee. The difference was that McGrath was a class or two above the others and was able to keep his career going by playing plain awesomely.
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To the top
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Take out Lee's first 50 odd wickets at 17 a piece and what have you got?
A media "darling" of the Board who was an average bowler - had pace but only had 2 lengths which, combined with no swing and no seam saw him frequently smashed.
Never a fan of Lee.
Kasper was an honest Shield bowler - but really needed assistance from the deck, particularly in his infrequent Test appearances.
In looking at bowling performances you really need to look at who the performances were against - because there is a wide gulf across Test playing nations.
And that leads to the "Chucker" v Warne!
Class bowlers all have the ability to do something with the ball - and have impeccable accuracy.
The only bowler we have at present who can consistently make the ball "talk" is Watson - although my mates in the City of Churches reckon Lyon has the goods.
In the list of Australia's 25 best Test players, I was staggered that CV Grimmett was not near the top - let alone not in the best 25.
He was a very much older man when he went from school to school taking practice sessions, inviting certain to Adelaide Oval - and you could not put a bat on him!
Between "Slinger" Nitschke telling you to "hit him" and Charlie turning it square it was a great education!
And Dawson is still a dud.
A media "darling" of the Board who was an average bowler - had pace but only had 2 lengths which, combined with no swing and no seam saw him frequently smashed.
Never a fan of Lee.
Kasper was an honest Shield bowler - but really needed assistance from the deck, particularly in his infrequent Test appearances.
In looking at bowling performances you really need to look at who the performances were against - because there is a wide gulf across Test playing nations.
And that leads to the "Chucker" v Warne!
Class bowlers all have the ability to do something with the ball - and have impeccable accuracy.
The only bowler we have at present who can consistently make the ball "talk" is Watson - although my mates in the City of Churches reckon Lyon has the goods.
In the list of Australia's 25 best Test players, I was staggered that CV Grimmett was not near the top - let alone not in the best 25.
He was a very much older man when he went from school to school taking practice sessions, inviting certain to Adelaide Oval - and you could not put a bat on him!
Between "Slinger" Nitschke telling you to "hit him" and Charlie turning it square it was a great education!
And Dawson is still a dud.
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To the top
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Take out Lee's first 50 odd wickets at 17 a piece and what have you got?
A media "darling" of the Board who was an average bowler - had pace but only had 2 lengths which, combined with no swing and no seam saw him frequently smashed.
Never a fan of Lee.
Kasper was an honest Shield bowler - but really needed assistance from the deck, particularly in his infrequent Test appearances.
In looking at bowling performances you really need to look at who the performances were against - because there is a wide gulf across Test playing nations.
And that leads to the "Chucker" v Warne!
Class bowlers all have the ability to do something with the ball - and have impeccable accuracy.
The only bowler we have at present who can consistently make the ball "talk" is Watson - although my mates in the City of Churches reckon Lyon has the goods.
In the list of Australia's 25 best Test players, I was staggered that CV Grimmett was not near the top - let alone not in the best 25.
He was a very much older man when he went from school to school taking practice sessions, inviting certain to Adelaide Oval - and you could not put a bat on him!
Between "Slinger" Nitschke telling you to "hit him" and Charlie turning it square it was a great education!
And Dawson is still a dud.
A media "darling" of the Board who was an average bowler - had pace but only had 2 lengths which, combined with no swing and no seam saw him frequently smashed.
Never a fan of Lee.
Kasper was an honest Shield bowler - but really needed assistance from the deck, particularly in his infrequent Test appearances.
In looking at bowling performances you really need to look at who the performances were against - because there is a wide gulf across Test playing nations.
And that leads to the "Chucker" v Warne!
Class bowlers all have the ability to do something with the ball - and have impeccable accuracy.
The only bowler we have at present who can consistently make the ball "talk" is Watson - although my mates in the City of Churches reckon Lyon has the goods.
In the list of Australia's 25 best Test players, I was staggered that CV Grimmett was not near the top - let alone not in the best 25.
He was a very much older man when he went from school to school taking practice sessions, inviting certain to Adelaide Oval - and you could not put a bat on him!
Between "Slinger" Nitschke telling you to "hit him" and Charlie turning it square it was a great education!
And Dawson is still a dud.
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The Redeemer
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Ever actually bowled a 'chucker' i'm sorry Murali in the nets during/after a session?To the top wrote:Take out Lee's first 50 odd wickets at 17 a piece and what have you got?
A media "darling" of the Board who was an average bowler - had pace but only had 2 lengths which, combined with no swing and no seam saw him frequently smashed.
Never a fan of Lee.
Kasper was an honest Shield bowler - but really needed assistance from the deck, particularly in his infrequent Test appearances.
In looking at bowling performances you really need to look at who the performances were against - because there is a wide gulf across Test playing nations.
And that leads to the "Chucker" v Warne!
Class bowlers all have the ability to do something with the ball - and have impeccable accuracy.
The only bowler we have at present who can consistently make the ball "talk" is Watson - although my mates in the City of Churches reckon Lyon has the goods.
In the list of Australia's 25 best Test players, I was staggered that CV Grimmett was not near the top - let alone not in the best 25.
He was a very much older man when he went from school to school taking practice sessions, inviting certain to Adelaide Oval - and you could not put a bat on him!
Between "Slinger" Nitschke telling you to "hit him" and Charlie turning it square it was a great education!
And Dawson is still a dud.
Ever noticed how easy it is to bowl a doorsa when your arm is bent like crazy and straightens?
Ever noticed how easy it is to get a ridiculous amount of over-spin?
Ever noticed how easy it is to get a ridiculous amount of conventional off-spin on even gabba-grass 'wickets'?
I rest my case.
The smiling idiot should be taken out the back and shot for completely screwing up cricket for all. Maakeey
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The OtherThommo
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A lot of anti-Zac nonsense peddled in these parts. Whipping boy mentality gone mad.
I'm glad those who run the footy club aren't so blind to reasoned and analytical thought.
Dawson's record is sound. He's been a key defender in a top 4 side since 2009. Has played very good football in finals, including good performances on Hall (2010 PF) and Cloke (2010 GF).
Record shows he rarely has bags kicked on him. Depsite relentless bagging by his own club's supporters, for supposedly being regularly towelled up by monster forwards in one on one duels, the FACTS suggest otherwise (e.g. vs C'wood, MCG, 2011). Cloke, the dominant power forward over 2011, kicked 3 goals vs Dawson before half time and NONE after half time. Cloke took 3 contested marks for the game vs Dawson, all before half time.
No power forward has "got hold" of Dawson in his 3 years at FB for us. He has lost duels, but has never been anyone's bunny.
Then there is the "Moneyball" argument i.e. value for money. If Dawson is asking $300K p.a., that is only 30% above the average salary for all AFL players in 2010 ($226K p.a.). Figures for key defenders who take the best opposition forward week after week are not available but they would surely be well above the average, because they are way harder to find than midfielders and outside runners. Add the fact his performances have been in a side that has played top 4 football, and in GF's in his time, and surely his ask is not above reasonable.
The club itself recognised his value via the B&F, the best value assessment tool available to supporters. Dawson polled over 18 votes per game in 2011, comfortably in the top quartile of the list. For instance, Goddard polled only 16.3 per game. That's a measure of value.
Farren Ray, by comparison, polled only 9 per game, well below Kosi who was the second lowest of the regular players (20 odd of them). Ray is a member of the over represented "midfielder" category, and clearly the worst performer of that group, and the regular players. If Dawson is easily replaced, as a KPP, then what's Ray? Value for money - Ray was a trade at 23/24 y.o. after being a top 10 draft pick. Dawson was a rookie upgrade, very quickly, into a side that played deep into finals in his first 2 years. Ray's finals performances do not compare to Dawson's. Given their paths, who do people reckon would be paid more? And, Ray is more easily replaced than a key defender.
The relentless Dawson bagging is a disingenous pile of crap. I'm glad those that run the club and the list are not so blinkered to the facts delivered by performance. By all means, hold an opinion, dislike someone's MO. But, F*** me, at least consider the reality of performance and the concept of value.
If you can't do that, read "Moneyball". It's a salutary lesson.
I hope he stays. He is good value.
I'm glad those who run the footy club aren't so blind to reasoned and analytical thought.
Dawson's record is sound. He's been a key defender in a top 4 side since 2009. Has played very good football in finals, including good performances on Hall (2010 PF) and Cloke (2010 GF).
Record shows he rarely has bags kicked on him. Depsite relentless bagging by his own club's supporters, for supposedly being regularly towelled up by monster forwards in one on one duels, the FACTS suggest otherwise (e.g. vs C'wood, MCG, 2011). Cloke, the dominant power forward over 2011, kicked 3 goals vs Dawson before half time and NONE after half time. Cloke took 3 contested marks for the game vs Dawson, all before half time.
No power forward has "got hold" of Dawson in his 3 years at FB for us. He has lost duels, but has never been anyone's bunny.
Then there is the "Moneyball" argument i.e. value for money. If Dawson is asking $300K p.a., that is only 30% above the average salary for all AFL players in 2010 ($226K p.a.). Figures for key defenders who take the best opposition forward week after week are not available but they would surely be well above the average, because they are way harder to find than midfielders and outside runners. Add the fact his performances have been in a side that has played top 4 football, and in GF's in his time, and surely his ask is not above reasonable.
The club itself recognised his value via the B&F, the best value assessment tool available to supporters. Dawson polled over 18 votes per game in 2011, comfortably in the top quartile of the list. For instance, Goddard polled only 16.3 per game. That's a measure of value.
Farren Ray, by comparison, polled only 9 per game, well below Kosi who was the second lowest of the regular players (20 odd of them). Ray is a member of the over represented "midfielder" category, and clearly the worst performer of that group, and the regular players. If Dawson is easily replaced, as a KPP, then what's Ray? Value for money - Ray was a trade at 23/24 y.o. after being a top 10 draft pick. Dawson was a rookie upgrade, very quickly, into a side that played deep into finals in his first 2 years. Ray's finals performances do not compare to Dawson's. Given their paths, who do people reckon would be paid more? And, Ray is more easily replaced than a key defender.
The relentless Dawson bagging is a disingenous pile of crap. I'm glad those that run the club and the list are not so blinkered to the facts delivered by performance. By all means, hold an opinion, dislike someone's MO. But, F*** me, at least consider the reality of performance and the concept of value.
If you can't do that, read "Moneyball". It's a salutary lesson.
I hope he stays. He is good value.
'I have no new illusions, and I have no old illusions' - Vladimir Putin, Geneva, June 2021
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SaintPav
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+1.The OtherThommo wrote:A lot of anti-Zac nonsense peddled in these parts. Whipping boy mentality gone mad.
I'm glad those who run the footy club aren't so blind to reasoned and analytical thought.
Dawson's record is sound. He's been a key defender in a top 4 side since 2009. Has played very good football in finals, including good performances on Hall (2010 PF) and Cloke (2010 GF).
Record shows he rarely has bags kicked on him. Depsite relentless bagging by his own club's supporters, for supposedly being regularly towelled up by monster forwards in one on one duels, the FACTS suggest otherwise (e.g. vs C'wood, MCG, 2011). Cloke, the dominant power forward over 2011, kicked 3 goals vs Dawson before half time and NONE after half time. Cloke took 3 contested marks for the game vs Dawson, all before half time.
No power forward has "got hold" of Dawson in his 3 years at FB for us. He has lost duels, but has never been anyone's bunny.
Then there is the "Moneyball" argument i.e. value for money. If Dawson is asking $300K p.a., that is only 30% above the average salary for all AFL players in 2010 ($226K p.a.). Figures for key defenders who take the best opposition forward week after week are not available but they would surely be well above the average, because they are way harder to find than midfielders and outside runners. Add the fact his performances have been in a side that has played top 4 football, and in GF's in his time, and surely his ask is not above reasonable.
The club itself recognised his value via the B&F, the best value assessment tool available to supporters. Dawson polled over 18 votes per game in 2011, comfortably in the top quartile of the list. For instance, Goddard polled only 16.3 per game. That's a measure of value.
Farren Ray, by comparison, polled only 9 per game, well below Kosi who was the second lowest of the regular players (20 odd of them). Ray is a member of the over represented "midfielder" category, and clearly the worst performer of that group, and the regular players. If Dawson is easily replaced, as a KPP, then what's Ray? Value for money - Ray was a trade at 23/24 y.o. after being a top 10 draft pick. Dawson was a rookie upgrade, very quickly, into a side that played deep into finals in his first 2 years. Ray's finals performances do not compare to Dawson's. Given their paths, who do people reckon would be paid more? And, Ray is more easily replaced than a key defender.
The relentless Dawson bagging is a disingenous pile of crap. I'm glad those that run the club and the list are not so blinkered to the facts delivered by performance. By all means, hold an opinion, dislike someone's MO. But, F*** me, at least consider the reality of performance and the concept of value.
If you can't do that, read "Moneyball". It's a salutary lesson.
I hope he stays. He is good value.
It's good to read a post by someone who can think.
My only concern is that the club are not offering him what he is actually worth so he will probably leave.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
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samoht
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We all recognise his only real weakness is the long kick into the forward line and the one on one situation vs a Cloke, Waite , Setanta etc.. but he's rarely left alone one on one and gets a lot of help against the big forwards from team mates and he works well with the rest of the defense.
So he has his team mates to thank for not having bags of goals kicked against him... as one on one is not his forte.
The FB position is different from days gone by where there was a continuous one on one duel - if it was like that Riewoldt would kick 10 goals every week vs a single opponent... but as we know he always has 2 or 3 opponents. and has less space to work in.
Will be a bit of a loss .. but is not irreplaceable, as the FB position has changed a lot.
In the 2010 GF Cloke had a groin problem I'm pretty sure of it ..as he was grimacing and moving gingerly when he ran onto the ground at the start of the game... and in a GF 10-12 goals is a winning score and some of those goals come from midfileders and other forwards so how many should we expect a FF to kick ?
It rarely becomes a one on one situation - but if it does Cloke will mark the incoming ball 9 times out of 10 vs Dawson... let's not overlook that !
So he has his team mates to thank for not having bags of goals kicked against him... as one on one is not his forte.
The FB position is different from days gone by where there was a continuous one on one duel - if it was like that Riewoldt would kick 10 goals every week vs a single opponent... but as we know he always has 2 or 3 opponents. and has less space to work in.
Will be a bit of a loss .. but is not irreplaceable, as the FB position has changed a lot.
In the 2010 GF Cloke had a groin problem I'm pretty sure of it ..as he was grimacing and moving gingerly when he ran onto the ground at the start of the game... and in a GF 10-12 goals is a winning score and some of those goals come from midfileders and other forwards so how many should we expect a FF to kick ?
It rarely becomes a one on one situation - but if it does Cloke will mark the incoming ball 9 times out of 10 vs Dawson... let's not overlook that !
Last edited by samoht on Sat 05 Nov 2011 9:44am, edited 3 times in total.