Lyons strategy

[SainterK]

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

yeah, really smart thinking there k, i reckon you might be right.

Not my smart thinking, read a Saints fan elsewhere ask what makes people think Freo will play defensive footy?

Then it dawned on me, he doesn't build lists, he comes up with gameplans, and finds lists to suit.

[Johnny Member]

How many here really questioned this strategy when we made successive GF's and nearly got a flag?

I did.

I still think his strength was the actual weakness in both Grand Finals.


The inability to score, was a result of poorly skilled players and a once dimensional approach to footy.

We just couldn't find that one extra goal in both Grand Finals, whilst our opponents did.

Kicking low scores in 09 and 2010 was no accident, and it certainly wasn't an exception. And it was the reason we didn't win.
That's the game plan, or at least an absolute result of it.

He pretty much recruited all defensive players, and left the scoring to 1 bloke!

Good coach. Was very close to being great. But I think his design as much as bad luck is the reason he isn't great.


You can't recruit rejects, unskilled and slow players, then blame the footy gods when you can only kick 68 points in a Grand Final.

[SainterK]

Where you posting under that name when expressing those opinions?

I only ask, because if you are who I think you are, then it would be much easier to discuss it with you (remembering your expressed views about Ross, if you are that poster)

[markp]

Strategy?

I read this elsewhere yesterday, and it helped me understand his motive.

He knows the overly defensive game plan has expired.

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

Expect Freo to shift Pavlich into the forward line as a key forward, a quick play on game style, surging the ball forward, however with guys like Fyfe and Hill kicking inside 50.

I think you're right.

I cant blame him for taking that sort of coin, or the temptations of such green pasture list-wise, and not having it in him for a rebuild... but to let negotiations with us go so deep, then walk, yikes!.... makes me wonder if he was luke warm or at least undecided, then they raised the offer to eye watering proportions..... he would want to hope he has very good lawyers, and received sound advice.

[Johnny Member]

He took the club in a position to win two flags and the players didnt do it.

So he took them there, but they didn't do it?

What a load of s***.

[desperate saint]

agree totally Joffa,I am new here but I would have to say when Lyon rolled out the old fWD line structure in the 1st half against sydney,there didnt seem to be much coaching thought put into it!

[SainterK]

Strategy?

I read this elsewhere yesterday, and it helped me understand his motive.

He knows the overly defensive game plan has expired.

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

Expect Freo to shift Pavlich into the forward line as a key forward, a quick play on game style, surging the ball forward, however with guys like Fyfe and Hill kicking inside 50.

I think you're right.

I cant blame him for taking that sort of coin, or the temptations of such green pasture list-wise, and not having it in him for a rebuild... but to let negotiations with us go so deep, then walk, yikes!.... makes me wonder if he was luke warm or at least undecided, then they raised the offer to eye watering proportions..... he would want to hope he has very good lawyers, and received sound advice.

It really is best for us.

It's an admission that he is good at game plans, but finds it easier to find lists to execute them.

This reinvented style he was trying to perfect, probably has an expiration date given modern footy, so he walks....where he can acheive it sooner.

[bozza1980]

It now looks like his goal is to win a flag at whatever club he is at.

Surely that's the responsibility of any coach at any club?

Let's not lose sight of the fact that players, coaches and other footy personnel move clubs regularly. It's not the old days anymore ... club loyalty doesn't fit in today's footy landscape. And it's not a one way street either, clubs are pretty quick to cut a player or coach if they deem it necessary. Small wonder then that is becoming the normal way of business for the footy industry.

Lyon's move is just a more extreme example of this attitude.

Totally agree, got nothing to do with loyalty.

Got nothing to do really with the decision, I mean it is a good list and the money is great.

It has to do with the so called character of Lyon who has traded on being up front and honest.

Seems like those have been in short supply with him of late.

I completely agree.

Lyon has every right to explore and pursue the best option for himself and his family.

I also understand that in these sort of situations a level of duplictiousness is required, this said it appears from the outside that Lyon has taken it to a completely unneccessary level.

[jonesy]

The OP sums up my thoughts 100%...


Agreed with him going for the flag at all costs,but to then walk out and leave someone else to clean up the mess,and with such decievement...a disgraceful dog act of the highest order

[Johnny Member]

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

yeah, really smart thinking there k, i reckon you might be right.

Not my smart thinking, read a Saints fan elsewhere ask what makes people think Freo will play defensive footy?

Then it dawned on me, he doesn't build lists, he comes up with gameplans, and finds lists to suit.

He has come up with a game plan. Not game plans.

At Sydney, it was the same as what he did with us.


As I've said before, he must change his thinking. But there's more evidence to suggest that he's incapable, than evidence to suggest that he can.

[SainterK]

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

yeah, really smart thinking there k, i reckon you might be right.

Not my smart thinking, read a Saints fan elsewhere ask what makes people think Freo will play defensive footy?

Then it dawned on me, he doesn't build lists, he comes up with gameplans, and finds lists to suit.

He has come up with a game plan. Not game plans.

At Sydney, it was the same as what he did with us.


As I've said before, he must change his thinking. But there's more evidence to suggest that he's incapable, than evidence to suggest that he can.

Disagree.

Was different this year, just not executed well.

[degruch]

It now looks like his goal is to win a flag at whatever club he is at.

My first thoughts this morning p66...chasing average teams with a half-reasonable list to reach a GF. Melbourne, meh, too far off it. IMO he had a lot of unfinished business at St Kilda and the opportunity to prove is mettle with a rebuild, but when the going got tough...

...I don't believe he's left us any better, or perhaps any worse than we were at the end of 2006, but I won't be able to confirm for about 24 months.

[Johnny Member]

He already trying to coach another style of football this year but the Saints list couldn't execute it, didn't have the personnel and weren't capable (mainly because of foot skills)

So he has found a list that can execute it.

yeah, really smart thinking there k, i reckon you might be right.

Not my smart thinking, read a Saints fan elsewhere ask what makes people think Freo will play defensive footy?

Then it dawned on me, he doesn't build lists, he comes up with gameplans, and finds lists to suit.

He has come up with a game plan. Not game plans.

At Sydney, it was the same as what he did with us.


As I've said before, he must change his thinking. But there's more evidence to suggest that he's incapable, than evidence to suggest that he can.

Disagree.

Was different this year, just not executed well.

But come on, every single coach has a game plan.

And not all of them are good.


Just because he added 'play on every time' to the existing game plan, doesn't make him a game plan guru!

To me, it actually makes him just like every other coach now. More unknown than anything. And based on his history and background, and general history the odds are stacked heavily in the corner of 'one trick pony'.

[SainterK]

Not convinced that's all he will modify.

Hard to know what he was trying to achieve this year, let's be honest, the boys butchered the ball incredibly.

He certainly has the ruckman, key forward, and quality users of the footy.

I don't expect Freo to play 'saints footy' next year.

[degruch]

Not convinced that's all he will modify.

Hard to know what he was trying to achieve this year, let's be honest, the boys butchered the ball incredibly.

He certainly has the ruckman, key forward, and quality users of the footy.

I don't expect Freo to play 'saints footy' next year.

He couldn't have picked a worse team for 'Saints footy'...phew...talk about making life hard for yourself...Freo! I'm still trying to get my head around it.

[spert]

Lyon coached with a plan and structure and required his players to conform to that- players played a specific role and didn't need to be champions to do that- just needed to be good footballers with top fitness and discipline. This also inhibits the development of younger players, as they turn into role players rather than maximize their individual skills and development- and this is to the detriment of the club. Any individual flair and risk-taking can not be part of that kind of methodology, and that is Lyon's big failure with that form of coaching. Sure, we were so well drilled that we reached GFs, but in GFs, you need individuals to take the game on more than in the home and away games, you need to take risks, and that is another Lyon weakness- doesn't take risks..you could see some players in the GF's hesitating as they were thinking game plan first rather than trusting instinct...and GFs are the last chance game- he who hesitates is lost. For Lyon to succeed elsewhere, he would need to turn his coaching methods around, and I don't think he has anything other than what we have seen.

[Johnny Member]

Not convinced that's all he will modify.

Hard to know what he was trying to achieve this year, let's be honest, the boys butchered the ball incredibly.

He certainly has the ruckman, key forward, and quality users of the footy.

I don't expect Freo to play 'saints footy' next year.

History tells us categorially, that Swans/Saints footy is the only thing he's ever done in the past 10 years.

So I'd be amazed if he completely changed it. That's all he does, and all he ever has done.

He clearly believes in it.


But, surely he's finally got the message that it doesn't work. So I'd imagine he will try to tweak it.

But as a coach, he still does and always has, try to 'stop first, then attack second'.

So I doubt that will change.


And for a new team to learn this, and for it to become 2nd nature to them, will surely take time.



Anyway, as I said, he's no different to any coach now. He had a game plan that caught the comp off guard, but was outdated some time ago.

He needs a new one.

The question is, can he do it successfully? And I'm not talking 'finish top 8, or finish top 4' - I'm talking win the flag.




I still think he's overrated as a coach. And he's clearly become 100 times better since this whole sage came up.

[Johnny Member]

Lyon coached with a plan and structure and required his players to conform to that- players played a specific role and didn't need to be champions to do that- just needed to be good footballers with top fitness and discipline. This also inhibits the development of younger players, as they turn into role players rather than maximize their individual skills and development- and this is to the detriment of the club. Any individual flair and risk-taking can not be part of that kind of methodology, and that is Lyon's big failure with that form of coaching. Sure, we were so well drilled that we reached GFs, but in GFs, you need individuals to take the game on more than in the home and away games, you need to take risks, and that is another Lyon weakness- doesn't take risks..you could see some players in the GF's hesitating as they were thinking game plan first rather than trusting instinct...and GFs are the last chance game- he who hesitates is lost. For Lyon to succeed elsewhere, he would need to turn his coaching methods around, and I don't think he has anything other than what we have seen.

I totally agree.

It was the game plan that played a huge part in getting us there, but it was also the game plan that played a huge part in us losing them!


You need to win Grand Finals. Not defend and hope your opponent loses them.

We weren't capable of winning it, twice, because of the nature of our team and the game plan.