Lyon press conference?

[Saints43]

Lyon does have more resources - he demanded Dave Misson come to the club.....should he be condemed or applauded for the new resources in this area?

He should be commended (along with the 'Footy First' ticket who have backed up their election agenda) for demanding as close to best practice off-field resouces that we can (almost) afford.

I'm just tiring of the 'list he's had to work with' rider that allows him to be declared an 'outstanding' coach.

It is undeniable that other clubs have (and soon will have) gone past us under this management.

The list is his. His support staff are his employs.

I'm not saying that he hasn't done a good job. The first job of the coach is to send the team out prepared and commited to the cause. And from 2008 onwards I can barely think of a game where they have not done the club proud in regards to teamwork and endevour. And the 2009 period is the most dominant football I have ever seen the club play.

I do agree that Lyon now needs to back rhetoric up with action - by that I mean there is no point bemoaning skill level when you bring in Dean Polo. Its skill we need and Id like to see us scour VFL ranks as a start (thats if we aint totally rebuilding) for an immediate injection of a player that could have an impact in 2012. Recruitment HAS to have skill level as a focus.

In potting Lyon for his role players we also need to assess that against what we gave up......Polo? Birrs? Gardiner? what did these guys really cost us?

What did they cost us? Good question.

Anyway, I think that the club have acknowledged that the whole of the football department - from recruitment to list management to selection - needs a consistent focus and that's what I believe Pelchan has been brought in to do.

[jays]

its the start of rebuilding

[desertsaint]

merge with melbourne. move back to the city. have the mcg as a home, keep lyon, mix our leaders with their youth.
wham bam - premierships ahead!

[saintbrat]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/s ... 6134204203
>>>>>>>>>>
It was one final postscript in a tough season for the Saints, who recovered from several off-field problems to host the final against the Swans.

The club issued a media statement on Sunday afternoon, thanking the four players.

St Kilda also clarified that the quartet "would be departing the Saints at season's end".

"In recognition of the part they've each played in the club's growth and success, the coach made the announcement following the team's exit from its fourth successive finals appearance," the club said in the media release.

"All four players played in the club's recent grand final appearances and end their careers at the Saints with honour and admiration."

None of the quartet played in Saturday night's loss to Sydney.

>>>>>>

[InkerSaint]

He should be commended (along with the 'Footy First' ticket who have backed up their election agenda) for demanding as close to best practice off-field resouces that we can (almost) afford.

I'm just tiring of the 'list he's had to work with' rider that allows him to be declared an 'outstanding' coach.

It is undeniable that other clubs have (and soon will have) gone past us under this management.

The list is his. His support staff are his employs.

Actually they are not. Lyon doesn't set the recruiting and football department budgets - the board do. Lyon doesn't oversee the football department - the football operations manager (Drain, now Hutchison) did, and now the new role of football CEO (Pelchen) does.

"The list he's had to work with" is an entirely fair rider. In fact Lyon should be applauded for far more than his coaching, the board knew they needed a more professional football department and Lyon already had many ideas on how to do it. In a proper modern footy department structure he should be solely responsible for players and assistants and a gameplan, and has been wearing many more hats than that out of necessity. That is now changed.

[Johnny Member]

He should be commended (along with the 'Footy First' ticket who have backed up their election agenda) for demanding as close to best practice off-field resouces that we can (almost) afford.

I'm just tiring of the 'list he's had to work with' rider that allows him to be declared an 'outstanding' coach.

It is undeniable that other clubs have (and soon will have) gone past us under this management.

The list is his. His support staff are his employs.

Actually they are not. Lyon doesn't set the recruiting and football department budgets - the board do. Lyon doesn't oversee the football department - the football operations manager (Drain, now Hutchison) did, and now the new role of football CEO (Pelchen) does.

"The list he's had to work with" is an entirely fair rider. In fact Lyon should be applauded for far more than his coaching, the board knew they needed a more professional football department and Lyon already had many ideas on how to do it. In a proper modern footy department structure he should be solely responsible for players and assistants and a gameplan, and has been wearing many more hats than that out of necessity. That is now changed.

I still can't for the life of me, understand how a coach can have someone else recruit for him and build his list for him.

It makes no sense to me, and something I highly doubt actually happens at any footy club anywhere.

[Johnny Member]

Maybe you misunderstand how average our list is.

It's his list!

We pay the same amount of money to our players that collingwood, hawthorn, geelong do.

RL started with a fantasic core of players coming into their peak years:
Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Goddard, Gilbert, Koschitzke, Fisher, Dal Santo, Milne.

He brought in the Birss, Polo types that make it the 'average' list it is today. That's his choice to play his gameplan.

RL is - by far - the best resourced coach ever to be employed by this club. No other coach has seen anything like the levels of investment he has had at his disposal.

I agree with this.


I used to get dirty when people would talk about how great Dean Laidley was.

The poor bloke, he's a great coach and has doesn really well with such an ordinary list!

For f***'s sake, he'd been there for 7 years!! If he doesn't have the list looking like something he wants after 7 years - then he's not a good coach!

If Lyon's list right now, isn't his, then the club has a problem! If it is his list, then as a coach he needs to be judged on that also.

[InkerSaint]

Actually they are not. Lyon doesn't set the recruiting and football department budgets - the board do. Lyon doesn't oversee the football department - the football operations manager (Drain, now Hutchison) did, and now the new role of football CEO (Pelchen) does.

"The list he's had to work with" is an entirely fair rider. In fact Lyon should be applauded for far more than his coaching, the board knew they needed a more professional football department and Lyon already had many ideas on how to do it. In a proper modern footy department structure he should be solely responsible for players and assistants and a gameplan, and has been wearing many more hats than that out of necessity. That is now changed.

I still can't for the life of me, understand how a coach can have someone else recruit for him and build his list for him.

It makes no sense to me, and something I highly doubt actually happens at any footy club anywhere.

Based on what exactly. Your personal opinion?

I have a copy of the audio interview from 6 weeks ago where Lyon says otherwise. And in fact St. Kilda are moving towards where Geelong and Collingwood are already at.

Where do you think I get my information from? My personal opinion?

[The OtherThommo]

He should be commended (along with the 'Footy First' ticket who have backed up their election agenda) for demanding as close to best practice off-field resouces that we can (almost) afford.

I'm just tiring of the 'list he's had to work with' rider that allows him to be declared an 'outstanding' coach.

It is undeniable that other clubs have (and soon will have) gone past us under this management.

The list is his. His support staff are his employs.

Actually they are not. Lyon doesn't set the recruiting and football department budgets - the board do. Lyon doesn't oversee the football department - the football operations manager (Drain, now Hutchison) did, and now the new role of football CEO (Pelchen) does.

"The list he's had to work with" is an entirely fair rider. In fact Lyon should be applauded for far more than his coaching, the board knew they needed a more professional football department and Lyon already had many ideas on how to do it. In a proper modern footy department structure he should be solely responsible for players and assistants and a gameplan, and has been wearing many more hats than that out of necessity. That is now changed.

Right on the money, Inker. In all the speculation about Lyon staying or going people seem to have forgotten one crucial element. It was he who wanted the board to appoint a football director and they did so after Lyon had talked with Pelchen and gave Nettlefold and the board his stamp on Pelchen.

He did so because he wants to coach, not run the whole show. He recognised a shortcoming and sought to have it dealt with, and the board agreed.

He then told the board he would only agree to an extension once the board had agreed to a long term plan to be put together by Pelchen, which he would work on with Pelchen.

I don't believe anything has changed since those moves played out. We've had a number of goes at putting together a capable football structure, but it was largely done piecemeal i.e. individual appointments here and there. This is the first time a thorough approach has been taken and it was because of Lyon's demands. And, he did it because he doesn't want to have to have a finger in all pies, such as recruiting. The people who say it's 'his list' are acknowledging that our football structure is stuck in the days of old when coaches were omnipotent in all matters of football. Those days are well and truly gawn. Lyon knows it and sought to have the board fix it. He could have simply done nothing and waited for a better offer. Instead he saw a deficiency and sought a fix. If it comes to fruition, which it should if all those involved carry their part of the log, then we'll be the better for it.

[Johnny Member]

Actually they are not. Lyon doesn't set the recruiting and football department budgets - the board do. Lyon doesn't oversee the football department - the football operations manager (Drain, now Hutchison) did, and now the new role of football CEO (Pelchen) does.

"The list he's had to work with" is an entirely fair rider. In fact Lyon should be applauded for far more than his coaching, the board knew they needed a more professional football department and Lyon already had many ideas on how to do it. In a proper modern footy department structure he should be solely responsible for players and assistants and a gameplan, and has been wearing many more hats than that out of necessity. That is now changed.

I still can't for the life of me, understand how a coach can have someone else recruit for him and build his list for him.

It makes no sense to me, and something I highly doubt actually happens at any footy club anywhere.

Based on what exactly. Your personal opinion?

I have a copy of the audio interview from 6 weeks ago where Lyon says otherwise. And in fact St. Kilda are moving towards where Geelong and Collingwood are already at.

Where do you think I get my information from? My personal opinion?

It's completely my pesonal opinion in relation tot he Saints. I have no idea what our club does.

But I do know for a fact that Malthouse picks his players. I'm not sure of the exact structure, but he's the man who says who he wants, who stays and who goes.

From a personal perspective, I just can't see how someone else can choose the players for a coach.

I actually can't fathom it.


I mean, Ken Sheldon had Milne on the trade table when Lyon arrived. And the first thing he did was take him off the table. He still gets credit for that - but now we're being told he doesn't make these calls?

What about the neccesity to get a ruckman when he arrived? He declared that, then from what we're told, he personally ensured we got about 3 of them!

We're even told that Lyon offered Ball a contract?! If Lyon isn't the one deciding who represents him each week, why is he offering dudes contacts?



But as I said, I only 'know' what Malthouse does from a family connection. I don't know what happens at the Saints, and only base it what I see as common sense, and from what I read in the papers and on here.

[SainterK]

With Scully signing with GWS today, Melbourne may have more money to throw around at potential coaches?

Hopefully they package it up into an offer Mick Malthouse can't refuse

[Johnny Member]

Right on the money, Inker. In all the speculation about Lyon staying or going people seem to have forgotten one crucial element. It was he who wanted the board to appoint a football director and they did so after Lyon had talked with Pelchen and gave Nettlefold and the board his stamp on Pelchen.

Didn't we have Sheldon, then Drain in this role?

[InkerSaint]

With Scully signing with GWS today, Melbourne may have more money to throw around at potential coaches?

Hopefully they package it up into an offer Mick Malthouse can't refuse

Coaches don't go under the player salary cap, K. (Just as well for us.)

[InkerSaint]

But I do know for a fact that Malthouse picks his players. I'm not sure of the exact structure, but he's the man who says who he wants, who stays and who goes.

I haven't paid attention to the mechanics of the Collingwood inner sanctum, but I'll take a footy professional's public statement about it over unqualified hearsay, and I'll have a stab at the above:

Malthouse gets his information on the available players based on the club's scout network, information at the draft camps etc. from his head recruiter, as well as potential trade opportunities. His list manager is across the salary cap spend over the next three-year period and tells him what money they have to play with, and so on.

It's his game plan, and he gives the recruiting staff a shopping list, just as they give him an appraisal of the player market and try to identify hidden opportunities.

They're his decisions but it's their recommendations.

And the bigger and better funded your recruiting department is, the better recommendations you will get.

If Malthouse was a one-stop shop what did Collingwood spend $750,000 on for recruiting in 2006? Think outside the box.

[St. Luke]

Let go of expectation. Get the boys fit, especially the skipper - clearly gutsing a f***ed leg. Embrace the longer break. Refresh, rejuvenate. Introduce who we can. Trust who we have. Supplement what we've got. Every club has this moment. Embrace it, because it'll be the beginning of the next wave.

This!

Armo has stepped up a notch this season, and with Lenny back in the mix, a few youngsters stepping up and a fresh off season, we'll give it a good crack in 2012.

Personally I'm amazed we got as far as we did this season. Lyon has to stay. He's been brilliant.

[SainterK]

With Scully signing with GWS today, Melbourne may have more money to throw around at potential coaches?

Hopefully they package it up into an offer Mick Malthouse can't refuse

Coaches don't go under the player salary cap, K. (Just as well for us.)

Glad I went with a at the end then

[Johnny Member]

But I do know for a fact that Malthouse picks his players. I'm not sure of the exact structure, but he's the man who says who he wants, who stays and who goes.

I haven't paid attention to the mechanics of the Collingwood inner sanctum, but I'll take a footy professional's public statement about it over unqualified hearsay, and I'll have a stab at the above:

Malthouse gets his information on the available players based on the club's scout network, information at the draft camps etc. from his head recruiter, as well as potential trade opportunities. His list manager is across the salary cap spend over the next three-year period and tells him what money they have to play with, and so on.

It's his game plan, and he gives the recruiting staff a shopping list, just as they give him an appraisal of the player market and try to identify hidden opportunities.

They're his decisions but it's their recommendations.

And the bigger and better funded your recruiting department is, the better recommendations you will get.

If Malthouse was a one-stop shop what did Collingwood spend $750,000 on for recruiting in 2006? Think outside the box.

I'm not talking about draftees.

I'm not talking about draftees. I don't think any head coaches would be selecting kids from the Draft would they? Perhaps they'd highlight what type of player they need, but they don't do the selecting.

Funnily enough though, I remember when GT didn't attend the Draft that year he was caned for it! His response was along the lines of 'well, why do I need to be there? The recruiting guy picks these kids - not me'.



I was talking about cutting guys from the list, and recruiting 'recycled players'.

[The OtherThommo]

Right on the money, Inker. In all the speculation about Lyon staying or going people seem to have forgotten one crucial element. It was he who wanted the board to appoint a football director and they did so after Lyon had talked with Pelchen and gave Nettlefold and the board his stamp on Pelchen.

Didn't we have Sheldon, then Drain in this role?

No. Sheldon was football operations manager. The coach didn't report to him and he didn't oversee everything to do with football.

Drain was head of List Management and Recruiting only.

Pelchen is Head of Football - in charge of everything to do with football. Lyon wanted a boss so he could concentrate on coaching, and he got one.

To find how Sheldon got the job do yourself a search on him, Glen Casey and Nylex. There you will find a case book study on the way things used to be done. Old style networking, nepotism and how you get a bloke a gig elsewhere when his current employer is on its way down the zoomer because that same networking and nepotism made it so.

Then ask yourself how many jobs Sheldon has had at AFL level since.

If you want further background add Jackson, Curlewis, Butterss to your searches and you'll find a nice old web of intrigue that goes back through the U-19's, smokes, Caulfield Institute, ICI, National Industries and a whole lot more.

[InkerSaint]

I'm not talking about draftees. I don't think any head coaches would be selecting kids from the Draft would they? Perhaps they'd highlight what type of player they need, but they don't do the selecting.

Funnily enough though, I remember when GT didn't attend the Draft that year he was caned for it! His response was along the lines of 'well, why do I need to be there? The recruiting guy picks these kids - not me'.



I was talking about cutting guys from the list, and recruiting 'recycled players'.

Somebody at the club carried the can for recruiting Andrew Lovett, and it wasn't Ross Lyon.

[Johnny Member]

I'm not talking about draftees. I don't think any head coaches would be selecting kids from the Draft would they? Perhaps they'd highlight what type of player they need, but they don't do the selecting.

Funnily enough though, I remember when GT didn't attend the Draft that year he was caned for it! His response was along the lines of 'well, why do I need to be there? The recruiting guy picks these kids - not me'.



I was talking about cutting guys from the list, and recruiting 'recycled players'.

Somebody at the club carried the can for recruiting Andrew Lovett, and it wasn't Ross Lyon.

But that's what I mean. How can someone else select a guy like Lovett and turn around and tell Lyon that he's going to be playing for him?!

It's ridiculous really. It also makes me wonder about the decision to go and get Tom Walsh.

Drain was beating his chest about us getting him and how he felt he was easily the equivalent of a top 10 pick. But then he arrives, and Lyon doesn't play him for 2 years!

It's unworkable if the coach isn't the one picking his players.

[InkerSaint]

Somebody at the club carried the can for recruiting Andrew Lovett, and it wasn't Ross Lyon.

But that's what I mean. How can someone else select a guy like Lovett and turn around and tell Lyon that he's going to be playing for him?!

It's ridiculous really. It also makes me wonder about the decision to go and get Tom Walsh.

Drain was beating his chest about us getting him and how he felt he was easily the equivalent of a top 10 pick. But then he arrives, and Lyon doesn't play him for 2 years!

It's unworkable if the coach isn't the one picking his players.

Look, it's not as if the club has spelled out anyone's role in that particular fiasco. But it's not hard to guess that Peake was responsible for one or more of the recommendation, the valuation (pick 16), and/or the due diligence/background reference checks.

That's not to say that Lyon didn't have the final word - although we know his preference for drafting Cousins was vetoed by the board.

It was Archie Fraser who was blowing his trumpet about Walsh. That's another matter again.

If you were going to have a reasonable doubt about something, it would be about Malthouse being a sole decision maker at an $80 million business. Final word? Perhaps. Unilateral? Wouldn't think so.

Regardless of which, if our club is moving towards a model currently in place at Geelong and Collingwood, I would call that a Good Thing.

[sainterjo]

Let go of expectation. Get the boys fit, especially the skipper - clearly gutsing a f***ed leg. Embrace the longer break. Refresh, rejuvenate. Introduce who we can. Trust who we have. Supplement what we've got. Every club has this moment. Embrace it, because it'll be the beginning of the next wave.

Agree with just about everything you've ever contributed, Thinline. However, I agree with this far more!

[Johnny Member]

Look, it's not as if the club has spelled out anyone's role in that particular fiasco. But it's not hard to guess that Peake was responsible for one or more of the recommendation, the valuation (pick 16), and/or the due diligence/background reference checks.

That's not to say that Lyon didn't have the final word - although we know his preference for drafting Cousins was vetoed by the board.

I still don't believe that any coach in the AFL would sit back and allow some guy who's never played footy, or coached it, to choose players for him and then hand over a 'list' for him to coach.

I just can't see how it would work that way. And as I said, I don't believe for a second it does.

The only instances where I've seen hints of it, funnily enough have been at the Saints with whatever it was that Drain was supposed to be doing.

He seemed to be happily recruiting guys, only for their to be conjecture as to whether or not Lyon wanted them.

It was Archie Fraser who was blowing his trumpet about Walsh. That's another matter again.

No, it was specifically Matthew Drain telling the world how great we were for getting Walsh.
And as I said, the fact that he hasn't played a game in 2 years tells me that not everyone thought it was such a coup!

If you were going to have a reasonable doubt about something, it would be about Malthouse being a sole decision maker at an $80 million business. Final word? Perhaps. Unilateral? Wouldn't think so.

As far as I've been told in regards to him, he's the footy boss. What that means is that he he decides who plays for him and who doesn't. The list is his.

Of course he has assistants to help him with this stuff, but he's the boss. He makes the call.


I can absolutely understand someone else choosing a coach's assistants. Someone with an objective view should appoint assistant coaches who off set skills or lack of skills that the senior coach has.

But once the coaching team is in place, it's just illogical for anyone other than them to choose the players that play for them.

[meher baba]

Somebody at the club carried the can for recruiting Andrew Lovett, and it wasn't Ross Lyon.

But that's what I mean. How can someone else select a guy like Lovett and turn around and tell Lyon that he's going to be playing for him?!

It's ridiculous really. It also makes me wonder about the decision to go and get Tom Walsh.

Drain was beating his chest about us getting him and how he felt he was easily the equivalent of a top 10 pick. But then he arrives, and Lyon doesn't play him for 2 years!

It's unworkable if the coach isn't the one picking his players.

Look, it's not as if the club has spelled out anyone's role in that particular fiasco. But it's not hard to guess that Peake was responsible for one or more of the recommendation, the valuation (pick 16), and/or the due diligence/background reference checks.

That's not to say that Lyon didn't have the final word - although we know his preference for drafting Cousins was vetoed by the board.

It was Archie Fraser who was blowing his trumpet about Walsh. That's another matter again.

If you were going to have a reasonable doubt about something, it would be about Malthouse being a sole decision maker at an $80 million business. Final word? Perhaps. Unilateral? Wouldn't think so.

Regardless of which, if our club is moving towards a model currently in place at Geelong and Collingwood, I would call that a Good Thing.

I have it on reasonable authority that the club placed the blame for the Lovett fiasco squarely on the shoulders of Drain.

It surely wasn't Archie Fraser talking about Walsh. As I recall it, Archie was gone from the club from the end of the 2008 season. It was Drain again: "good as a first round draft pick". And also Ricky Nixon, who "talent-spotted" Walsh. Still, Walsh might still turn out to be good: it's clearly difficult to know at this point in time.

As for Lyon's role: I find it difficult to believe that Lyon wasn't personally responsible for the decisions to recruit Schneider and Dempster. We were also rumoured at some stage to have made plays for O'Keeffe and Kennelly: perhaps Lyon was involved again.

Drain took public credit for getting Farren Ray and "rediscovering" Dawson. But he seemed to disappear into the background in relation to the Luke Ball saga.

So on the whole, it seems as if Drain -while he was at the club - was largely in charge of list management, but the picture is a bit blurred.

[InkerSaint]

I still don't believe that any coach in the AFL would sit back and allow some guy who's never played footy, or coached it, to choose players for him and then hand over a 'list' for him to coach.

I just can't see how it would work that way. And as I said, I don't believe for a second it does.

The only instances where I've seen hints of it, funnily enough have been at the Saints with whatever it was that Drain was supposed to be doing.

He seemed to be happily recruiting guys, only for their to be conjecture as to whether or not Lyon wanted them.

I'm not saying Lyon doesn't exercise an executive decision on player signings. But forgive me for being skeptical about a coach at any AFL club having a final say about anything if it was overridden by the board.

It was Drain who made the announcement - I've got my parties mixed up. Fraser's role was in "discovering" Walsh. They sold his signing as justification for letting pick 16 go for Lovett.

Notice that both have since left the building?

You are absolutely right about things having not been done correctly at the club. And the point is - Lyon is a part of the solution.