For many who want Michael Gardiner to play

[plugger66]

The Blues kicked the first goal of the third and then MG was subsituted. It could have been coincidence but all of a sudden we stopped their run out of the backline and even had more possessions than them by the end of the game which didnt look possible at half time.

According to the AFL match centre

Carlton 424
St Kilda 352

Are you just making stuff up?

I meant we had more in the second half. Sorry for that.

[Mr Magic]

Don't agree at all. It didn't work because Ben had an off night. We played Zac on the forward line and that worked. Ben has improved vastly this season no doubt, but he is not so flash up against the really big name ruckmen. Where as Gardi on the other hand is fantastic, but can the knee hold up? Leaves us no option but to play both of them.

Who are the 'big name' ruckmen?

My memory might be failing me but over the past dozen or so weeks hasn't Big Ben done reasonably well/ok against
Goldstein twice (being considered for AA)
Cox/Natanui
Jolly
Ottens

He got 'towelled up' by Mumford but was apparently one of those suffering the gastro, so I'm prepared to cut him some slack for that game.

[To the top]

So many posts.

Two things:-

1) You were obviously at a different game to me on Saturday night

and

2) How many of your trillion posts have attacked Gardiner over a long period of time?


I do not recall seeing either of Gardiner or McEvoy "resting" forward at any stage. I did see Reiwoldt forward, Koschitzke forward and then Dawson forward.

I do recall Gardiner and McEvoy drifting forward on a very few occasions - but generally they set up around the centre and defensively which is where they got their possessions and put their bodies into the contest - and very effectively.

In fact, my best 3 at half time were Gilbert, Gardiner and Clarke.

I did note that that we had 4 players forward of the centre at most - and this allowed Carlton to sit players back - we promptly kicked directly to those players or to Riewoldt, who was covered by 2 opponents most of the time and had no influence and no support at ground level because Milne and Schnieder were no where to be seen.

So was Gardiner/McEvoy responsible for Duigan and the other Carlton loose players back - or for the "switch" players Carlton used and each of whom had 40 disposals - very few of them more than 20 metres?

Simply, we sat back, congested their forward line, watched them switch and switch and switch (and sometimes find one of their small speedsters free in the middle which looked spectacular but led to nothing) and then stifled them, looking for the rebound, over the top attack to Milne, Schnieder, Steven and our mid-fielders who kicked goals.

The reason Carlton took the possesions they did in our attacking zone was because of the players they had free back there - whilst we had Milne and Schnieder up the ground.

What we did learn was that Milne has to play exclusively within disposal reach of goal, Schnieder also but less so and that Peake is a periodic requirement forward.

Where we were unbalanced was with Blake and Dawson, and that was resolved (in this instance) by Dawson going forward and Blake relying on Gilbert to assist him.

The question is not if McEvoy and Gardiner should play in the side (and they will, back it in) but if we can afford Dawson and Blake in the side - given Dawson is 195cm (and quicker) and Blake is 189cm (and slower), Dawson will get the nod so it is then a requirement that a mid-field option replaces Blake - plus there is a question over Geary given Dempster and Jones are in the side.

Armitage for Geary - and (Smith?) for Blake.

[asiu]

How many marks did gardy drop during his half of footy?

Are you fids brother , plugger

[Spinner]

If nothing else... The mere fact that he had to be or was planned to be subbed out provides evidence that the structure is unsustainable... and that he his body is unsustainable...


Not going to make wholesale changes going into a final.



I would hope.

[Old Mate]

If nothing else... The mere fact that he had to be or was planned to be subbed out provides evidence that the structure is unsustainable... and that he his body is unsustainable...


Not going to make wholesale changes going into a final.



I would hope.

It was planned as he's been out for so long - to ease him back into the seniors.

Gardy will play, you can bet on it.

[plugger66]

So many posts.

Two things:-

1) You were obviously at a different game to me on Saturday night

and

2) How many of your trillion posts have attacked Gardiner over a long period of time?


I do not recall seeing either of Gardiner or McEvoy "resting" forward at any stage. I did see Reiwoldt forward, Koschitzke forward and then Dawson forward.

I do recall Gardiner and McEvoy drifting forward on a very few occasions - but generally they set up around the centre and defensively which is where they got their possessions and put their bodies into the contest - and very effectively.

In fact, my best 3 at half time were Gilbert, Gardiner and Clarke.

I did note that that we had 4 players forward of the centre at most - and this allowed Carlton to sit players back - we promptly kicked directly to those players or to Riewoldt, who was covered by 2 opponents most of the time and had no influence and no support at ground level because Milne and Schnieder were no where to be seen.

So was Gardiner/McEvoy responsible for Duigan and the other Carlton loose players back - or for the "switch" players Carlton used and each of whom had 40 disposals - very few of them more than 20 metres?

Simply, we sat back, congested their forward line, watched them switch and switch and switch (and sometimes find one of their small speedsters free in the middle which looked spectacular but led to nothing) and then stifled them, looking for the rebound, over the top attack to Milne, Schnieder, Steven and our mid-fielders who kicked goals.

The reason Carlton took the possesions they did in our attacking zone was because of the players they had free back there - whilst we had Milne and Schnieder up the ground.

What we did learn was that Milne has to play exclusively within disposal reach of goal, Schnieder also but less so and that Peake is a periodic requirement forward.

Where we were unbalanced was with Blake and Dawson, and that was resolved (in this instance) by Dawson going forward and Blake relying on Gilbert to assist him.

The question is not if McEvoy and Gardiner should play in the side (and they will, back it in) but if we can afford Dawson and Blake in the side - given Dawson is 195cm (and quicker) and Blake is 189cm (and slower), Dawson will get the nod so it is then a requirement that a mid-field option replaces Blake - plus there is a question over Geary given Dempster and Jones are in the side.

Armitage for Geary - and (Smith?) for Blake.

I cant take you seriously when you say Smth for Blake or last week when you said Cahill was a chance. He is a chance but that is getting delisted. And if Ben and MG didnt rest forward then how did they play as much game time as they did. Surely we didnt ruck both at once or have one of them in the backline. Of course one of them was up forward occasionly.

By the way I havent said MG didnt play well. Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

[Spinner]

If nothing else... The mere fact that he had to be or was planned to be subbed out provides evidence that the structure is unsustainable... and that he his body is unsustainable...


Not going to make wholesale changes going into a final.



I would hope.

It was planned as he's been out for so long - to ease him back into the seniors.

Gardy will play, you can bet on it.

oooooo I feel another bet coming on!

[PJ]

Carlton dominated possession because they played keepings off as often as they could - simple as that. Has nothing to do with Gardi going off.

I don't know which way Ross will go but for mine we looked way more convincing in the centre with Gardi. Ben has grown in leaps as a player and as a ruckman but he still lacks authority.

Gardi is an imposer and the opposition fear him more but he's had little game time - can he hold it together for a finals campagne that will last a full month? That is the biggest question.

If you watch the replay Ben was on pretty early and he had no impact on their run. What turned it around? Pressure from the whole team across the ground.

[SaintPav]

Carlton dominated possession because they played keepings off as often as they could - simple as that. Has nothing to do with Gardi going off.

I don't know which way Ross will go but for mine we looked way more convincing in the centre with Gardi. Ben has grown in leaps as a player and as a ruckman but he still lacks authority.

Gardi is an imposer and the opposition fear him more but he's had little game time - can he hold it together for a finals campagne that will last a full month? That is the biggest question.

If you watch the replay Ben was on pretty early and he had no impact on their run. What turned it around? Pressure from the whole team across the ground.

How could you tell from TV that we put pressure on them across the ground?

[Old Mate]

Carlton dominated possession because they played keepings off as often as they could - simple as that. Has nothing to do with Gardi going off.

I don't know which way Ross will go but for mine we looked way more convincing in the centre with Gardi. Ben has grown in leaps as a player and as a ruckman but he still lacks authority.

Gardi is an imposer and the opposition fear him more but he's had little game time - can he hold it together for a finals campagne that will last a full month? That is the biggest question.

If you watch the replay Ben was on pretty early and he had no impact on their run. What turned it around? Pressure from the whole team across the ground.

How could you tell from TV that we put pressure on them across the ground?

Widescreen

[SaintPav]

Carlton dominated possession because they played keepings off as often as they could - simple as that. Has nothing to do with Gardi going off.

I don't know which way Ross will go but for mine we looked way more convincing in the centre with Gardi. Ben has grown in leaps as a player and as a ruckman but he still lacks authority.

Gardi is an imposer and the opposition fear him more but he's had little game time - can he hold it together for a finals campagne that will last a full month? That is the biggest question.

If you watch the replay Ben was on pretty early and he had no impact on their run. What turned it around? Pressure from the whole team across the ground.

How could you tell from TV that we put pressure on them across the ground?

Widescreen

Cool. I need to get myself one of those.

[Dr Spaceman]

Well considering there was no fanfare of it being Gardi's farewell game you'd have to consider Ross played him for a reason last Saturday night.

To me that means he's a big chance to play this week.

Whether he should or shouldn't, and who comes in and who goes out, I have no idea.

[Quixote]

I don't see why Gardi can't play a half, Ben subbed in for the second half and tell the rest of them they'd better be ready to run their arses off.

We'd be getting regular first use over four quarters.

Not sure who Armo replaces but someone will have to step aside.

[Shaggy]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

[saintsRrising]

I posted last week that I thought Gardi coming in would largely set up a scenario of Gardi v Blake for the 22.

I still think that.

Dawson was poor in the first half though, but played well when moved forward. However with the swans not likely to be overly tall forward he is a possible one week out. Zac however last year was the St Kilda player that won the most votes in out B+F for the finals period.

Kosi has returned to good form and his last month has been his best month of football for years. so he is 100% to play.

Mummie is going to loom large in Lyon;s thinking...and that will have him very, very tempted to play both Gardi and Big Ben.

[plugger66]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

It wasnt anything like for like. Since coming back from injury Kreuzer has played forward more than rucked. They basically lost a forward when he went off.

[The Fireman]

Gardi is a gun, if he can play then he must.

[PJ]

Carlton dominated possession because they played keepings off as often as they could - simple as that. Has nothing to do with Gardi going off.

I don't know which way Ross will go but for mine we looked way more convincing in the centre with Gardi. Ben has grown in leaps as a player and as a ruckman but he still lacks authority.

Gardi is an imposer and the opposition fear him more but he's had little game time - can he hold it together for a finals campagne that will last a full month? That is the biggest question.

If you watch the replay Ben was on pretty early and he had no impact on their run. What turned it around? Pressure from the whole team across the ground.

How could you tell from TV that we put pressure on them across the ground?

By watching it - they do show more than one spot of the ground and you can get a feel for a lift in intensity and pressure being applied around the ground. Can't you get a feel from your TV? You need feel TV - it's like 3D but with feelovision.

[GoTheTorp]

Back it in Gardy will play

[PJ]

I don't think it's matter of "want" Gardi to play so much as "want" saints to win. Which player would better suit that purpose I don't care. It's not an emotive issue it's whoever can do the job.

Ross seems to think there's merit in putting Gardi in - whether that'll happen this week I don't know but one thing I do know is Mummy needs a daddy.

[Shaggy]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

It wasnt anything like for like. Since coming back from injury Kreuzer has played forward more than rucked. They basically lost a forward when he went off.

They were playing 3 talls as we were. If we played Kosi ruck in first half and MG forward would you argue we lost a forward with the sub.

I think you miss the point about match ups. If anything it was a win for us to have Kreuzer in the forward line but when he went off MG had to go also because they had more runners after the substitution.

Kreuzer is no better and probably no worse than MG up forward. MG has kicked over 100 goals in his career.

[plugger66]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

It wasnt anything like for like. Since coming back from injury Kreuzer has played forward more than rucked. They basically lost a forward when he went off.

They were playing 3 talls as we were. If we played Kosi ruck in first half and MG forward would you argue we lost a forward with the sub.

I think you are completely missing the point about match ups. If anything it was a win for us to have Kreuzer in the forward line but when he went off MG had to go also because they had more runners.

But we could just have easily played MG forward who has kicked over 100 goals in his career. Kreuzer is no better and probably no worse than MG up forward.

Tell me you are joking. Kreuzer is much more of a natural forward then MG is especially at his age. MG would never play as a forward so i have no idea why you are mentioning him and Kosi.

I think you are completely missing the point. We had 4 talls for a start and 2 of them cant really play forward for more than a few minutes in a game. They had 3 talls and 2 of them can play forward for long periods of the game. Matter of fact they kicked their first 3 goals. Warnock is like both MG and Ben, a ruckman who can have very very short bursts forward. Carlton dont lose with much run with Satanta and Kruezer forward but we certainly do when we have Rooy, Kosi and a resting ruckman forward.

[Shaggy]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

It wasnt anything like for like. Since coming back from injury Kreuzer has played forward more than rucked. They basically lost a forward when he went off.

They were playing 3 talls as we were. If we played Kosi ruck in first half and MG forward would you argue we lost a forward with the sub.

I think you are completely missing the point about match ups. If anything it was a win for us to have Kreuzer in the forward line but when he went off MG had to go also because they had more runners.

But we could just have easily played MG forward who has kicked over 100 goals in his career. Kreuzer is no better and probably no worse than MG up forward.

Tell me you are joking. Kreuzer is much more of a natural forward then MG is especially at his age. MG would never play as a forward so i have no idea why you are mentioning him and Kosi.

I think you are completely missing the point. We had 4 talls for a start and 2 of them cant really play forward for more than a few minutes in a game. They had 3 talls and 2 of them can play forward for long periods of the game. Matter of fact they kicked their first 3 goals. Warnock is like both MG and Ben, a ruckman who can have very very short bursts forward. Carlton dont lose with much run with Satanta and Kruezer forward but we certainly do when we have Rooy, Kosi and a resting ruckman forward.

You may have missed his career but Roo is an elite runner. Don't put him in with the slower tall catagory

[plugger66]

Unlike it seems you I dont care how individuals play but I do care how the team plays and the team was very poor when we had 2 ruckmen in the 21.

Kreuzer was subbed first which you seem to have missed. It was a like for like substitution.

It wasnt anything like for like. Since coming back from injury Kreuzer has played forward more than rucked. They basically lost a forward when he went off.

They were playing 3 talls as we were. If we played Kosi ruck in first half and MG forward would you argue we lost a forward with the sub.

I think you are completely missing the point about match ups. If anything it was a win for us to have Kreuzer in the forward line but when he went off MG had to go also because they had more runners.

But we could just have easily played MG forward who has kicked over 100 goals in his career. Kreuzer is no better and probably no worse than MG up forward.

Tell me you are joking. Kreuzer is much more of a natural forward then MG is especially at his age. MG would never play as a forward so i have no idea why you are mentioning him and Kosi.

I think you are completely missing the point. We had 4 talls for a start and 2 of them cant really play forward for more than a few minutes in a game. They had 3 talls and 2 of them can play forward for long periods of the game. Matter of fact they kicked their first 3 goals. Warnock is like both MG and Ben, a ruckman who can have very very short bursts forward. Carlton dont lose with much run with Satanta and Kruezer forward but we certainly do when we have Rooy, Kosi and a resting ruckman forward.

You may have missed his career but Roo is an elite runner. Don't put him in with the slower tall catagory

At the moment and that is what we are talking about he is a slower non defensive tall but yes still much faster than all those except Satanta.