A curious question

[joffaboy]

Listening to 3AW on the way home from the football last night, I was suprised to hear a stat for a single umpire for and against free kicks for the two sides playing.

I have NEVER heard this stat before. it was in response to numerous Norf fans bleating about 'we wuz robbed" umpiring.

i am talking about 3AW singling out Ray Chamberlains free kicks to each team. It was 9-2 to St.Kilda but they were at pains to point out that it was 8-0 at one stage.

I find there is a worrying inference in this stat. Are they suggesting that Ray Chamberlain is a cheat? Are they inferring that the free kicks weren't there?

So you can imagine my suprise when i get home, watch the replay and Walls and Lane are going on about the exact same stat, but giving a running commentary.

Now umpires make mistakes, and last night we got the rub of the green, but lets face it, we should have kicked 25 goals last night and the umpiring didn't make a flit of difference to the outcome.

I am just wondering if anyone had heard individual stats for an umpire for for and agaisnt free kicks.

I have never, and why was just one umpire singled out?

Seems just another way to no give the saitns their due (also with Tony Leonard insisting time and again that the free turned momentum).

Walls and Lane were just as flat when the Saints turned it on last night.

Why pick on one umpire with this inference of cheating?

[bergholt]

Now umpires make mistakes, and last night we got the rub of the green, but lets face it, we should have kicked 25 goals last night and the umpiring didn't make a flit of difference to the outcome.

given how much posters on this site sook about umpiring, i'm not sure we can complain when others do the same.

[plugger66]

All this proves is that we arent picked on by the umpires or the AFL. Every week is different and it was our turn to get a positive run. Expect a thread next week on how come umpires cheat and give the opposition all the frees.

[Con Gorozidis]

Good points.
But we needn't be hypocrites here. Saints fan have had to plenty to say about individual umpires "having it in for us" over the years. And thats not even including the whispers in the sky affair.

[saintspremiers]

Let's put aside for a moment if the umps cheated last night.

Our game was the match of the round, and in theory we had the top
Umpires.

Given that situation, why were the top of the pile so bad?

Something is really wrong.

[Dan Warna]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

[plugger66]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

The whole of McBurney's family follow the Saints as did McBurney. As if you would umpire 5 games let alone 400 games if you were biased. Is it only players that get told what they do right and wrong.

[Liam_G]

All free kicks are captured as who the free kick is for, who the free kick is against, what type of free kick is awarded and which umpire awarded the free kick. So yes, this information is always out there for the media to access if they want. I know the stats application the commentators use during a broadcast definitely has this information in it.

[SainterK]

The query on Ray all year has been 'blockbusters' as he gets a little excited and involved when he knows the world is watching.

I saw nothing though, that wasn't there.

I reckon Petrie took a mark and it wasn't paid, that was a shocker.

I can't recall seeing anything not go their way when it should of?

In context though, our talls were making them pretty nervous, their was a lot of crude spoiling and arm chopping?

[Con Gorozidis]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

The whole of McBurney's family follow the Saints as did McBurney. As if you would umpire 5 games let alone 400 games if you were biased. Is it only players that get told what they do right and wrong.

maybe mcburney - being a saints man - was so concerned about being biased toward them he went too far the other way in a bid to be an honest broker.

[St Lenny]

I guess watching it on TV all the time, you get use to the stats. About 4 wks ago, the stats where well down as far as frees for us is concerned. Now it has evened up. I havnt seen the stats for last night, couldnt find them. Razor Ray isnt generally very kind to us, but last night we seemed to be in his good books. Makes a nice change. Remember we are not the only ones who call him Razor Ray. The problem with the umpiring is the inconsistancy, makes it very hard to know when a free is deserved or not.

[St Lenny]

I guess watching it on TV all the time, you get use to the stats. About 4 wks ago, the stats where well down as far as frees for us is concerned. Now it has evened up. I havnt seen the stats for last night, couldnt find them. Razor Ray isnt generally very kind to us, but last night we seemed to be in his good books. Makes a nice change. Remember we are not the only ones who call him Razor Ray. The problem with the umpiring is the inconsistancy, makes it very hard to know when a free is deserved or not.

[bigcarl]

Razor Ray is officially my favorite umpire ... One of the few without a bias against St Kilda. He has the ability to think for himself and make his own decisions, which makes him a rarity among umpires

[plugger66]

Razor Ray is officially my favorite umpire ... One of the few without a bias against St Kilda. He has the ability to think for himself and make his own decisions, which makes him a rarity among umpires

Tell me you are actually joking regarding bias.

[bigcarl]

Razor Ray is officially my favorite umpire ... One of the few without a bias against St Kilda. He has the ability to think for himself and make his own decisions, which makes him a rarity among umpires

Tell me you are actually joking regarding bias.

I am joking and just trying ... Successfully ... to get a bite out of you.

[Foz]

What was Razor Ray's success or otherwise with centre bouncing? Has that stat been determined? Is a bounce that goes 7 foot 2" high a success?

[Thinline]

The query on Ray all year has been 'blockbusters' as he gets a little excited and involved when he knows the world is watching.

I saw nothing though, that wasn't there.

I reckon Petrie took a mark and it wasn't paid, that was a shocker.

I can't recall seeing anything not go their way when it should of?

In context though, our talls were making them pretty nervous, their was a lot of crude spoiling and arm chopping?

Exactly, K.

The Petrie mark should have been paid, but then we should have been given paid one for the deliberate rushed behind. We also should have kicked ten goals instead of behinds. C'est la vie. North sreally should have lost by a hundred plus...

The fact is for 80% of that game we were rempagingly dominant. The side that plays with intent and in front at the contest will ALWAYS get free kicks. The side that plays reactively and negatively will get savaged.

I can't recall the game being any different.

[bergholt]

The fact is for 80% of that game we were rempagingly dominant. The side that plays with intent and in front at the contest will ALWAYS get free kicks. The side that plays reactively and negatively will get savaged.

yup. so let's all try to keep that in mind next time we're on the other end of a lopsided count.

[Maklom]

Umpiring should not be influenced by any momentum swings full stop. If the umpire gets caught up in the moment and gives a free kick because he thinks it is "deserved" then he should be given a 4 week spell. We will never know that cos they won't tell but last night was pretty bad umpiring for large parts of the game and I think it is worth pointing out because we could easily be on the receiving end in a crucial game. We would have won no matter what last night but in close ones the umpires can and have influenced the outcome and it should not be that way.

[Johnny Member]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

The whole of McBurney's family follow the Saints as did McBurney. As if you would umpire 5 games let alone 400 games if you were biased. Is it only players that get told what they do right and wrong.

I don't think umpires cheat, as such.

What I do think they do though, is allow external factors to interfere with their decision making.

They get caught up in momentum swings, crowd reactions and often their own egos get in the way. There's no doubt also, that predetermined perceptions of individual players impacts there decision making.

Generally though, the actual umpires aren't that bad - it's the rules and the instructions that they're asked to follow that are the problem!


As for McBurney, he's just a bad umpire. Far too technical, and pays far too many frees. He just seems completely unable to to stay out of the game. He seems to have an uncontrollable urge to blow his whistle at every single contest.

He's a shocker.

[stinger]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

The whole of McBurney's family follow the Saints as did McBurney. As if you would umpire 5 games let alone 400 games if you were biased. Is it only players that get told what they do right and wrong.

I don't think umpires cheat, as such.

What I do think they do though, is allow external factors to interfere with their decision making.

They get caught up in momentum swings, crowd reactions and often their own egos get in the way. There's no doubt also, that predetermined perceptions of individual players impacts there decision making.

Generally though, the actual umpires aren't that bad - it's the rules and the instructions that they're asked to follow that are the problem!


As for McBurney, he's just a bad umpire. Far too technical, and pays far too many frees. He just seems completely unable to to stay out of the game. He seems to have an uncontrollable urge to blow his whistle at every single contest.

He's a shocker.

oh...i think they cheat... the whispers in the sky game confirmed that......and yes they are influenced by who the player is.....none of them give any latitude to milne and schneids couldn't buy a free kick even if his life depended on it...and yes mcburney was/is a s*** umpire.....full stop...

[plugger66]

Look I feel than we get a poor run again McBurney.

I suspect every umpire is human (look I realise its debatable but we'll work with as a plausible premise) and they bring their opinions, biases and ego's to every game whether they like it or not.

I guess if I was to be an umpire, my love for st kilda would be hard to suppress should i See roo bowled over like last night.

YOu look at danny frawley as coach of richmond, his heart was st kilda all through that time, you knew it.

I also think there is a random effect to where they are umpiring and where the ball is going.

North played the game with brutal intensity last night, they needed to win more than us.

A bit like freo a couple of weeks ago, they hit us like a battering ram, after we beat them, they've played like they don't care, because the finals are gone for them.

The whole of McBurney's family follow the Saints as did McBurney. As if you would umpire 5 games let alone 400 games if you were biased. Is it only players that get told what they do right and wrong.

I don't think umpires cheat, as such.

What I do think they do though, is allow external factors to interfere with their decision making.

They get caught up in momentum swings, crowd reactions and often their own egos get in the way. There's no doubt also, that predetermined perceptions of individual players impacts there decision making.

Generally though, the actual umpires aren't that bad - it's the rules and the instructions that they're asked to follow that are the problem!


As for McBurney, he's just a bad umpire. Far too technical, and pays far too many frees. He just seems completely unable to to stay out of the game. He seems to have an uncontrollable urge to blow his whistle at every single contest.

He's a shocker.

Why would McBurney get games and GF's if he is no good. That just doesnt make sense.

[Johnny Member]

Why would McBurney get games and GF's if he is no good. That just doesnt make sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense - this is the AFL we're talking about.

[plugger66]

Why would McBurney get games and GF's if he is no good. That just doesnt make sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense - this is the AFL we're talking about.

Well that is a great response. Have you actually you are wrong about him because that makes a lot more sense than your answer.

[Johnny Member]

Why would McBurney get games and GF's if he is no good. That just doesnt make sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense - this is the AFL we're talking about.

Well that is a great response. Have you actually you are wrong about him because that makes a lot more sense than your answer.

The AFL's idea of a 'good umpire' would be vastly different to the average footy fan's idea of a good umpire.

The AFL like the guys who can do all the actions correctly and with lots of theatre - the average footy fan couldn't give a f*** about how they prance around.

The AFL like the guys who bounce the ball consistently well. The average footy fan couldn't give a s***, most would rather they just threw it up and worried about more important stuff.

The average footy fan thinks a good umpire can determine whether an 'infringement' played any part in the outcome of the contest, and whether or not it was merely incidental - and not blow the whilstle and stop play and ruin a good contest, simply because technically a bloke's fingernail touched his opponent above the shoulder.

The AFL however don't think this matters one iota. They think good umpires are the ones who do exactly what they tell them to do without using their own brains at all.


So a guy like McBurney is probably a hero down at AFL house. He'd be getting great results in all his KPIs as set out by Geischen.


The problem is, for the people that actually watch the game he makes a mess of it and is shocking.

The same as McLaren. He was a terrible umpire.