Tanking

[Furphy]

If a club is found to be delberately under-performing in order to gain early draft picks, would supporters of said team who purchased season tickets, reserved seats, etc have cause to take action to recover their money? I couldn't imagine anyone forking out money if they knew their team was not going to have a red-hot dip.

[joffaboy]

The players on the field would be having a red hot dip. It is the selection of players that is the issue.

If for example we were 15th, we might send Roo and bj off for surgery now and end their seasons, insread of waiting to years end if we had a chance at the finals.

now that is a management decision but the replacements, although trying their best, could not possibly match the output and class of the two mentioned.

in that case it is a win win for the club, but possible a meaningless loss onfield.

Win 1 - higher dp
Win 2 - to stars up and ready with a full pre season for 2012.

The club has in fact tanked, but it is subtle and they cant be critisised for taking a long term approach.

i think all players, when on the field try, it is just the calibre of players on the field.

[Thinline]

The system condones it, and - if your read the reports - Demetriou effectively personally sanctions it.

Personally, I think it a shameful blight.

I mean look at the picture accompanying the story in the Hun today - the Tigers, a struggling club, pinch a win and are ecstatic. Melbourne tossed it in. It's holly disrespectful to the code to have such a disparity.

How the PP system can even be up for discussion in lieu of abolition beggars belief.

As to the draft order... make it a bottom nine/ten raffle.

Picks one to three are for the most part standouts.

As it stands clubs will always tank to nab one of those three.

[St Chris]

For Adrian Anderson to come out and say "tanking does not happen", a day after a senior coach admits to that very thing, is taking the p*ss out of every stake-holder in the game, the main one being the supporters.

To the AFL, tanking is the players choosing not to perform on purpose. That is more like match fixing, I have no doubt the 22 players out on the ground are giving 100%.

But when tanking is happening in the coaches box and at the selection table, it's a hell of a lot easier for the AFL to turn a blind eye. Blind Freddy can see what's happening, it happens every year, albeit to differing degrees.

The only way to stop the practice is a draft lottery. Even if it's only for the teams outside the 8. There needs to be no incentive at all for finishing lower on the ladder.

Until then, every game after the mid point of the season featuring a team in the bottom 6 or so, is compromised. Except at AFL house, where everything is dandy.....

[Thinline]

Read Ralph's take in the Hun. He dissects some of the tactical moves made during that Tigers/Melb game. Frawley forward, mids in back pockets, Miller to the ruck.

These are not developmental positional switches.

These are deliberate attempts to alter the course of a game.

f****** shamefully wrong.

[saintspremiers]

Nothing wrong with tanking.

The AFL make the stupid draft pick rules it's their fault not the clubs.

Anyone remember the Kreuzer Cup between the Dees and Carlscum??

[Cairnsman]

Read Ralph's take in the Hun. He dissects some of the tactical moves made during that Tigers/Melb game. Frawley forward, mids in back pockets, Miller to the ruck.

These are not developmental positional switches.

These are deliberate attempts to alter the course of a game.

f****** shamefully wrong.

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

[Grantaire]

For Adrian Anderson to come out and say "tanking does not happen", a day after a senior coach admits to that very thing, is taking the p*ss out of every stake-holder in the game, the main one being the supporters.

To the AFL, tanking is the players choosing not to perform on purpose. That is more like match fixing, I have no doubt the 22 players out on the ground are giving 100%.

But when tanking is happening in the coaches box and at the selection table, it's a hell of a lot easier for the AFL to turn a blind eye. Blind Freddy can see what's happening, it happens every year, albeit to differing degrees.

The only way to stop the practice is a draft lottery. Even if it's only for the teams outside the 8. There needs to be no incentive at all for finishing lower on the ladder.

Until then, every game after the mid point of the season featuring a team in the bottom 6 or so, is compromised. Except at AFL house, where everything is dandy.....

Agree with the lottery idea 100%. I'd go even further, and extend it to the entire competition. The reverse-order draft is redundant as an equalisation method with a properly-functioning salary cap in place.

[Thinline]

Read Ralph's take in the Hun. He dissects some of the tactical moves made during that Tigers/Melb game. Frawley forward, mids in back pockets, Miller to the ruck.

These are not developmental positional switches.

These are deliberate attempts to alter the course of a game.

f****** shamefully wrong.

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

I was illustrating but one obvious example.

The wrong of it runs deep.

A system that rewards mediocrity is sitting there begging to be abused.

Us, Weagles, Melbourne, Hawthorn, whoever.

AFL in the gun here, not clubs.

[stevie]

What about if you tanked in the last round because it meant the next week you would secure a home final?

Wouldn't the fans support something like that? I've always wondered if and when it happens...

[bigcarl]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

[joffaboy]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

[bigred]

A draft lottery would be awesome imo.

Hold it just after the end of the season, before the trade period....

I reckon it would be good.

The game is already flawed enough due to the financial "fixture" of the comp....

[bigcarl]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

I can't prove it, but I suspect the plan by GT and the then administration was to bottom out and exploit the resulting draft ... which we did successfully, like no other team before.

I've got no complaints as it's led to a successful era.

[SunburySaint]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

I can't prove it, but I suspect the plan by GT and the then administration was to bottom out and exploit the resulting draft ... which we did successfully, like no other team before.

I've got no complaints as it's led to a successful era.

As much as I agree with what you have said, to play devils advocate some would determine a successful era to include premierships.... We have not won 1, been oh so close but not good enough on the day.

So I'm not sure if we exploited it enough IMO.

Thoughts?

[desertsaint]

knowing your club is trying to manufacture losses would certainly effect the playing performance of the individual players. those fighting to gain a position may give 100%, but many others naturally wouldn't. the motivation needed just isn't there. it also creates a soft culture as players haven't been expected to sacrifice body for ball - a problem that is hurting melbourne now.
anyone who saw the kruezer cup could answer whether many, if any, gave 100% that day.

[bigcarl]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

I can't prove it, but I suspect the plan by GT and the then administration was to bottom out and exploit the resulting draft ... which we did successfully, like no other team before.

I've got no complaints as it's led to a successful era.

As much as I agree with what you have said, to play devils advocate some would determine a successful era to include premierships.... We have not won 1, been oh so close but not good enough on the day.

So I'm not sure if we exploited it enough IMO.

Thoughts?

Maybe we should have stayed down another year and picked up a few more.

Any case, success is relative. You're talking to someone who followed us through the early 80s, when we were lucky to win five matches a year. It was like a premiership just to get the four points.

But, yes, a flag is the ultimate in success and this group do not have one and may not get one. That's life. The club survives and learns.

[Beno88]

Read Ralph's take in the Hun. He dissects some of the tactical moves made during that Tigers/Melb game. Frawley forward, mids in back pockets, Miller to the ruck.

These are not developmental positional switches.

These are deliberate attempts to alter the course of a game.

f****** shamefully wrong.

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

We tanked for the best part of two decades...

[joffaboy]

picking up the right players with all of those high dp's might have helped.

Would have been a start to pick Judd ahead of Ball and someone else ahead of X at #5.

Would also have been nice not to waste pick #8 on Brooks as well.

We certainly fked up our high dps. Only really corrected recently with Armo and McEvoy not a waste.

[SunburySaint]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

I can't prove it, but I suspect the plan by GT and the then administration was to bottom out and exploit the resulting draft ... which we did successfully, like no other team before.

I've got no complaints as it's led to a successful era.

As much as I agree with what you have said, to play devils advocate some would determine a successful era to include premierships.... We have not won 1, been oh so close but not good enough on the day.

So I'm not sure if we exploited it enough IMO.

Thoughts?

Maybe we should have stayed down another year and picked up a few more.

Any case, success is relative. You're talking to someone who followed us through the early 80s, when we were lucky to win five matches a year. It was like a premiership just to get the four points.

But, yes, a flag is the ultimate in success and this group do not have one and may not get one. That's life. The club survives and learns.

Don't get me wrong I love the fact that these days if we play our best we can match it with anyone..... Just really interested in how people view success differently.

Also being born in the 80's I didn't experience much of that heartache but was right there through the 90's and early 2000's, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger i suppose.

[maverick]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

So what you are saying, is we were tanking, but we weren't very good at it...

Sounds like something we would do....

[maverick]

Didn't the Saints pioneer tanking? I'd like to think we did.

GT was an expert at it and it gained us a lot of high picks, the basis of the current team.

If thats the case why did we draw with Sydney and beat Freo (who were still a chance to make the finals) later in that season at Princess Park?

By winning that game we lost Daniel Wells.

Before that we didn't need to tank, we were as bad as a team could be in 2000 and 2001.

So what you are saying, is we were tanking, but we weren't very good at it...

Sounds like something we would do....

[Sobraz]

Not so sure about the draft lotto...

Fancy us finishing 9th this year, which can very well still happen, and after playing in the previous 2 grand finals, and several prelims in the last 7 years, nab the number 1 pick.... This year being the best key forward prospect in years...

As happy as I'd be, doesn't seem fair to me... Worse still, there'd be a 1/8 chance that Hawthorn would have landed a Scully, Trengove or Martin the year after they won a flag... Makes no sense IMO...

[bigcarl]

Don't get me wrong I love the fact that these days if we play our best we can match it with anyone..... Just really interested in how people view success differently.

Well, it was heartbreakingly disappointing not to win last year and 2009, but just because we didn't win I don't write off the entire era as a failure.

Richmond's last 10 years have been a failure. Ours, far from it.

They're not easy to win. Sixteen other teams want one, too. You need the cattle, the coach and an ounce of luck. We've had two out of three.

Everyone's given it their best shot and you can't really ask more than that.

[plugger66]

Of course clubs tank but there isnt many other options on how the draft could work. Obviously got to have the draft and the worst clubs need to get the top picks. Taking away the priorty pick would help but clubs will still tank. i actually dont have a problem with it once you know your window is shut.

I would actually asking for my money back if the club didnt tank.