Court case

[Bernard Shakey]

So this bird was willing to let Grammy give her one ... then Lovett does his "business" and first thing she does is ring her boyfriend

Best 200th post ever. You wanker!

[The Fireman]

What a shame another club didn't pick up the creep then this would be on another forum.

[santazzi]

Why can't Collingwood be named in court?

Bless you GrumpyOne..........you cut through all this garbage some how.........the name of the individual was all over the press and forums at the time.............I hate "playing legal games"..............

[The OtherThommo]

consent to me is clearly not a grey area at all (based on what I've read which makes me no expert)

when she has been alert/conscious/not impaired, she denies black and blue that she was consenting

her behavior reflects that of someone intoxicated and makes aspects of it a bit cloudy but I think in cases like this, the pieces never fit together too perfectly

are ppl suggesting that she consented, changed her mind after, then decided to charge AL as a result of the regret..? Has happened in the past i think

Definately one of the options.

Pleased I am not on that jury..... guaranteed sleepless nights.

Grumpy one,

I'm not being critical here but I'd like you to explain your point of view as I'm having difficulty grasping your tone.

Whilst the scenario I highlighted above is something that I know for a fact does happen I fail to see any evidence of that being the case here... not that I'm privvy to anything.

Someone that would be willing to falsely cry rape and stand by that lie to the point of the innocent person going to jail... well it's fair to say that that person is an unbalanced individual.
More than likely they would have endured some kind of traumatic incident... most likely a sexual assualt in their own development already. With people like that, if the trauma is not addressed, dealt with, come to terms with etc you usually see it manifest in other ways... usually chaotic behavior.

Now again I don't know anything about this young lady but I've not read anything about her statement or behavior on the night to suggest any such thing.

Maybe I'm biased (don't think so though coz me personally I would have let AL continue playing until proven guilty [although I can see now why that wouldn't have worked so kudos to the club]) but I can't for the life of me see how people think there's shades of grey here... or sufficient doubt.

The chain of events seem to be as follows
- The group go put for drinks to a club or something
- The girl and AL may or may not have flirted together and kissed
- The girl becomes intoxicated
- The party decide to go to Gram's place
- The girl and her friend initially want to go home but decide for whatever reason to go to Gram's place
- Jason and her kiss and the observation is made that she is heavily intoxicated so she is put to bed
- Alone in the bedroom enters and alledgedly digitally assualts her, she gets her bearing together enough to tell him to leave or yell or something.
- She half heartedly attempts to get up but is seemingly too sedated and intoxicated and falls back asleep.
- She regains her self-awareness later to find that AL having sex with her.

It gets a bit hazy after that but she becomes distressed++, cries rape and attempts to text for help from someone she knows.

After crying rape, she has not at any point backed down or changed her mind, or suggested that there was some kind of consent given to the act of sex between her and AL.

Even if parts of her recollection of the events immediately following the more traumatic part of the story have changed over time due to the result of
a) her being traumatised
b) her being intoxicated

It doesn't matter. I see absolutely nothing to doubt the fact that she DID NOT consent to having sex with him.


A few years ago when I was working at the hospital, (I'm a psychiatric nurse)... a patient punched me in the head. Didn't knock me out but hurt me nonetheless.
It took me about 2 weeks to fully recount the events as they happened. For periods of time in the days that followed, I legitimately remembered things that didn't happen. I still knew I got punched in the head though.

Where's the confusion

Wise words re the psychology of memory, Skeptic. Many do not realise just how complex the process of memory is.

A few days ago I mentioned sitting on a jury in a County Court trial. Much of the cross examination of the sole eye witness (the victim) by the defence counsel involved trying to discredit her memory. The brief did so by endlessly going over minutiae - "how far was the chair from the wall?", ''how close to the door is the bench on which the knife block sat?". Later a similar question would be asked and any difference in answer would be picked apart. Some on the jury started out assuming failure to precisely recall matters incidental to the crime gave them reasonable doubt.
But, others on the jury tried to approach those discrepancies in 2 ways 1) was it relevant to the crime and 2) would WE expect ourselves to have precise recall of incidental matters.
In fact, most of the jury came around to the view that someone who answers 2 similar questions, separated in time, about incidental matters not central to the crime, with 2 slightly different responses, is more than likely being truthful in total. We understood, or came to understand, that if defence counsel spends most of his cross examination on matters not central to the crime, and a witness answers each question on matters peripheral to the trauma of the event honestly when it is pitched, then some irrelevant discrepancies will arise. If they don't, you are more likely to be hearing a heavily rehearsed witness and, therefore, find them less believable.
A little understanding of the psychology of memory combined with a healthy dose of empathy can usually get people to the right decision.

[Con Gorozidis]

not sure mcqualter thought that being designated driver also qualified him for designated club spokesman.

[GrumpyOne]

consent to me is clearly not a grey area at all (based on what I've read which makes me no expert)

when she has been alert/conscious/not impaired, she denies black and blue that she was consenting

her behavior reflects that of someone intoxicated and makes aspects of it a bit cloudy but I think in cases like this, the pieces never fit together too perfectly

are ppl suggesting that she consented, changed her mind after, then decided to charge AL as a result of the regret..? Has happened in the past i think

Definately one of the options.

Pleased I am not on that jury..... guaranteed sleepless nights.

Grumpy one,

I'm not being critical here but I'd like you to explain your point of view as I'm having difficulty grasping your tone.

Whilst the scenario I highlighted above is something that I know for a fact does happen I fail to see any evidence of that being the case here... not that I'm privvy to anything.

Someone that would be willing to falsely cry rape and stand by that lie to the point of the innocent person going to jail... well it's fair to say that that person is an unbalanced individual.
More than likely they would have endured some kind of traumatic incident... most likely a sexual assualt in their own development already. With people like that, if the trauma is not addressed, dealt with, come to terms with etc you usually see it manifest in other ways... usually chaotic behavior.

Now again I don't know anything about this young lady but I've not read anything about her statement or behavior on the night to suggest any such thing.

Maybe I'm biased (don't think so though coz me personally I would have let AL continue playing until proven guilty [although I can see now why that wouldn't have worked so kudos to the club]) but I can't for the life of me see how people think there's shades of grey here... or sufficient doubt.

The chain of events seem to be as follows
- The group go put for drinks to a club or something
- The girl and AL may or may not have flirted together and kissed
- The girl becomes intoxicated
- The party decide to go to Gram's place
- The girl and her friend initially want to go home but decide for whatever reason to go to Gram's place
- Jason and her kiss and the observation is made that she is heavily intoxicated so she is put to bed
- Alone in the bedroom enters and alledgedly digitally assualts her, she gets her bearing together enough to tell him to leave or yell or something.
- She half heartedly attempts to get up but is seemingly too sedated and intoxicated and falls back asleep.
- She regains her self-awareness later to find that AL having sex with her.

It gets a bit hazy after that but she becomes distressed++, cries rape and attempts to text for help from someone she knows.

After crying rape, she has not at any point backed down or changed her mind, or suggested that there was some kind of consent given to the act of sex between her and AL.

Even if parts of her recollection of the events immediately following the more traumatic part of the story have changed over time due to the result of
a) her being traumatised
b) her being intoxicated

It doesn't matter. I see absolutely nothing to doubt the fact that she DID NOT consent to having sex with him.


A few years ago when I was working at the hospital, (I'm a psychiatric nurse)... a patient punched me in the head. Didn't knock me out but hurt me nonetheless.
It took me about 2 weeks to fully recount the events as they happened. For periods of time in the days that followed, I legitimately remembered things that didn't happen. I still knew I got punched in the head though.

Where's the confusion

I have to be careful here, otherwise certain people on here will all too quickly accuse me of defending a rapist.

I am not. AL still remains innocent until proven guilty; everyone has that right. Many are finding him guilty already because of the way he came to us, the waste of a high draft pick, his previous history of domestic violence, him extracting $$ out of us in a settlement; the list goes on. I am not sure that his race doesn't enter into people's perceptions either.

There are questions that have arisen that remain unanswered, at least to my satisfaction.

Why would a girl already in a relationship with a footballer hook up with other footballers at a pub?

What did she expect to happen when she went to Grammy's flat? If she was that crook, a taxi home was the best bet.

Why did she kiss Grammy on the balcony?

After she had been fingered the first time, why wasn't she out of there or at least reacting as she did later?

After the alleged rape, why did she say to Grammy ""Ã

[terry smith rules]

After she had been fingered the first time, why wasn't she out of there or at least reacting as she did later?

classy comment!!!

Moderators enough is enough close this thread and anything pertaining to this case

Has no place on this forum

[desertsaint]

Why did she call AL a black bastard and not just a bastard?

what does this have to do with anything? no doubt she was distressed and angry - people say stupid things, hurtful things, obvious things.

[wasaintsfan]

Why did she call AL a black bastard and not just a bastard?

what does this have to do with anything? no doubt she was distressed and angry - people say stupid things, hurtful things, obvious things.

if he was white and was called a white bastard(or trailer trash) would there be any racist call?? she was "attacked" and "distressed" pretty sure she has a right to be ignored for "racist" approach

sick and tired of when another race in australia does something wrong they try hide behind the racial call...

could keep going but will leave it at that

and whats it got to do with the price of fish anyway?

[GrumpyOne]

After she had been fingered the first time, why wasn't she out of there or at least reacting as she did later?

classy comment!!!

Moderators enough is enough close this thread and anything pertaining to this case

Has no place on this forum

I would suggest that TSR has had a sheltered upbringing, and if he/she finds that comment offensive, it would be best if he/she ceased reading the thread.

[GrumpyOne]

Why did she call AL a black bastard and not just a bastard?

what does this have to do with anything? no doubt she was distressed and angry - people say stupid things, hurtful things, obvious things.

if he was white and was called a white bastard(or trailer trash) would there be any racist call?? she was "attacked" and "distressed" pretty sure she has a right to be ignored for "racist" approach

sick and tired of when another race in australia does something wrong they try hide behind the racial call...

could keep going but will leave it at that

and whats it got to do with the price of fish anyway?

But why point out his colour?

Surely saying "That bastard raped me" would have been sufficient without adding the adjective.

But don't look at the one statement in isolation, the overall view should be taken.

[wasaintsfan]

Why did she call AL a black bastard and not just a bastard?

what does this have to do with anything? no doubt she was distressed and angry - people say stupid things, hurtful things, obvious things.

if he was white and was called a white bastard(or trailer trash) would there be any racist call?? she was "attacked" and "distressed" pretty sure she has a right to be ignored for "racist" approach

sick and tired of when another race in australia does something wrong they try hide behind the racial call...

could keep going but will leave it at that

and whats it got to do with the price of fish anyway?

But why point out his colour?

Surely saying "That bastard raped me" would have been sufficient without adding the adjective.

But don't look at the one statement in isolation, the overall view should be taken.

thats my point... in the circumstances race should hold no issue... what she was quoted saying was in pure anger.. hurt.. etc... and has no impact on what lovett has been accused of.. and therefore should never have even been allowed to leave court.. it shouldve been struck from the record

but for some reason in australia it becomes an issue to ignore and/or get away with the issue at hand...

i mean honestly if hes trying that path maybe,... she should change her arguement to agrovated racial assault....

but as i said it shouldnt even be considered

[Mr Magic]

[quote="GrumpyOne"]

There are questions that have arisen that remain unanswered, at least to my satisfaction.

Why would a girl already in a relationship with a footballer hook up with other footballers at a pub?

Why did she kiss Grammy on the balcony?

After the alleged rape, why did she say to Grammy ""Ã

[stinger]

What a shame another club didn't pick up the creep then this would be on another forum.

amen to that brother.....

[stinger]

After she had been fingered the first time, why wasn't she out of there or at least reacting as she did later?

classy comment!!!

Moderators enough is enough close this thread and anything pertaining to this case

Has no place on this forum

yep...i tend to agree....anyway for what it's worth mr x was an ex-boy friend at the time.....but still a friend...kinda shots down some posters arguments doesn't it....


and how f****** stupid is the argument that the girl was a racist...but she still consented to have sex with lovett.....ffs..... ...you simply can't have it both ways....

[stinger]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lovet ... 1hmnl.html


that would have been my advice to him....

[dals_da_bomb]

[quote="stinger"]http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lovet ... 1hmnl.html


that would have been my advice to him....[/quote]


From a legal stand point why would he not take the stand?
Sorry im a bit simple with this stuff?

[joffaboy]

Why did she call AL a black bastard and not just a bastard?

what does this have to do with anything? no doubt she was distressed and angry - people say stupid things, hurtful things, obvious things.

if he was white and was called a white bastard(or trailer trash) would there be any racist call?? she was "attacked" and "distressed" pretty sure she has a right to be ignored for "racist" approach

sick and tired of when another race in australia does something wrong they try hide behind the racial call...

could keep going but will leave it at that

and whats it got to do with the price of fish anyway?

But why point out his colour?

Surely saying "That bastard raped me" would have been sufficient without adding the adjective.

But don't look at the one statement in isolation, the overall view should be taken.

So what?

Maybe she is a bogan and a racist. However regardless of her character and racial beleifs, she is entitled to protection under the for rape.

A prostitute is protected from rape by law.

Calling AL a black bastard is distasteful, and racist. Raping someone is a criminal offence.

[markp]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lovet ... 1hmnl.html


that would have been my advice to him....

From a legal stand point why would he not take the stand?
Sorry im a bit simple with this stuff?

I guess if you thought (for whatever reason) it would not benefit your case.

[stinger]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lovet ... 1hmnl.html


that would have been my advice to him....

From a legal stand point why would he not take the stand?
Sorry im a bit simple with this stuff?

well...if he takes the stand to give evidence...he can be cross-examined by the prosecution and the jury also gets to look close hand at his demeanor and responses...if he gets caught out in a lie he's basically f***ed....

anyway he doesn't have to..and he also doesn't have to prove his innocence...the prosecution has to prove his guilt....

[GrumpyOne]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lovet ... 1hmnl.html


that would have been my advice to him....

From a legal stand point why would he not take the stand?
Sorry im a bit simple with this stuff?

well...if he takes the stand to give evidence...he can be cross-examined by the prosecution and the jury also gets to look close hand at his demeanor and responses...if he gets caught out in a lie he's basically f***ed....

anyway he doesn't have to..and he also doesn't have to prove his innocence...the prosecution has to prove his guilt....

Quite correct, and no inference can be made about his preference not to take the stand, the onus, as Stinger says, is for the prosecution to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Rosco]

yeah, but if i was on the jury i'd want to see him up there denying it.

[dragit]

I think he's going to walk here,
With our own opinions aside, I can imagine that there will be reasonable doubt for the jurors,
If she has consented (in a drunken stupor) to whom she thought was JG, it becomes complicated, if AL wasn't pretending to be JG then I'm not entirely sure that he would know who the girl thought she was with?

She has said to JG "I thought it was you"
Does that mean that she had consented thinking it was JG?

[markp]

She has said to JG "I thought it was you"
Does that mean that she had consented thinking it was JG?

Couldn't that also mean she thought it was him having non-consentual sex with her?

[InkerSaint]

Why would a girl already in a relationship with a footballer hook up with other footballers at a pub?

It's interesting that she is now being described as his then-current girlfriend when at the time she was his "former girlfriend":

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-pre ... 5917582892