Luke Ball

[stinger]

But I'll ask you this.
Do you think his sitting on the pine after half time in the GF was a surprise to him?

I don't.

I believe that he knew full well before the game what the plan re his game was going to be.

I don't for one second believe that he didn't know he was going to be played in that manner.

They had their gameplan.
They had their strategies.
They knew what they were going to do with their personnel.

You may argue/debate that they may not have been correct, but to think Ball didn't know what was going to transpire means you feel he was left out of all the planning that took place prior to the game?

not true..m m....even ross has acknowldged that ball should have played an extra 6 minutes in each of the 3rd and 4th quarters.....anyway he was practically best on the ground in the first half....

..then not to be played in the second half smacks of incompetence.....like it or not...that's what happened......ross actually tried to deflect criticism by saying that it wasn't his decision......ball was devastated....


ayway...time to move on everybody ffs.....



the saints have been f****** up with their players personal for as long as i can remember


some of the real f*** ups were stewart for barrot....greene for two gumbies and plugger for sfa.....same as ball.....they will never learn....lovett is the prime example of that.....

[Saints43]

To be honest, what puzzles me is why you would offer a bloke that has so many limitations in his athletic ability (according to Misson's book) and his skill level, so much money! Did we really put $1m over 3 years on the table for him?

Because they knew he was capable of better?

Which is also why he was dropped.

Clean bill of health from 2007, yet compare what he produced for St Kilda compared to Collingwood.

The fact the coaching staff expected better, totally justified.

That they expected him to knuckle down and work harder, totally wrong.

But why would he suddenly work harder for Collingwood?

This is when it is my opinion S43.

Collingwood accomodated Luke as he was, St Kilda asked him to work on things.

So he went for the fit, rather than fitting in.

It happens.

I think that's right too. Given my current workplace talking to me about what I couldn't do and offering bigger money to others, and someone else offering more money as I am I would probably leave my job as well.

[Mr Magic]

To be honest, what puzzles me is why you would offer a bloke that has so many limitations in his athletic ability (according to Misson's book) and his skill level, so much money! Did we really put $1m over 3 years on the table for him?

Because they knew he was capable of better?

Which is also why he was dropped.

Clean bill of health from 2007, yet compare what he produced for St Kilda compared to Collingwood.

The fact the coaching staff expected better, totally justified.

That they expected him to knuckle down and work harder, totally wrong.

But why would he suddenly work harder for Collingwood?

This is when it is my opinion S43.

Collingwood accomodated Luke as he was, St Kilda asked him to work on things.

So he went for the fit, rather than fitting in.

It happens.

I think that's right too. Given my current workplace talking to me about what I couldn't do and offering bigger money to others, and someone else offering more money as I am I would probably leave my job as well.

So probably would I.

So given that we basicly agree in that aspect, do you believe that the Club (Lyon) should have changed their thinking to accomodate Luke Ball?

And if not, what should they have done (in hindsight)?

[Saints43]

So probably would I.

So given that we basicly agree in that aspect, do you believe that the Club (Lyon) should have changed their thinking to accomodate Luke Ball?

And if not, what should they have done (in hindsight)?

Well I'm someone who has always believed that RL has had too much emphasis on players fitting a philosophy rather than building a plan to suit the personnel available.

In my opinion the worst result for us was going to Tasmania and beating a poor Hawthorn team with a reserves team in 2009. It gave a misplaced importance to ' the structures'. And allowed poorly performed players to muddle through as long as results went our way. All done to death on this forum.

I think St Kilda were rolled by Collingwood in the Ball trade. I think Saints thought they were in a stronger negotiating position than they actually were. Once it became obvious that he was leaving we should have accepted something rather than nothing.

Port Adelaide showed years ago that the moral high ground is a poor business decision.

[stinger]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

[Mr Magic]

So probably would I.

So given that we basicly agree in that aspect, do you believe that the Club (Lyon) should have changed their thinking to accomodate Luke Ball?

And if not, what should they have done (in hindsight)?

Well I'm someone who has always believed that RL has had too much emphasis on players fitting a philosophy rather than building a plan to suit the personnel available.

In my opinion the worst result for us was going to Tasmania and beating a poor Hawthorn team with a reserves team in 2009. It gave a misplaced importance to ' the structures'. And allowed poorly performed players to muddle through as long as results went our way. All done to death on this forum.

I think St Kilda were rolled by Collingwood in the Ball trade. I think Saints thought they were in a stronger negotiating position than they actually were. Once it became obvious that he was leaving we should have accepted something rather than nothing.

Port Adelaide showed years ago that the moral high ground is a poor business decision.

So saints43 I take it from your answer that you think we should have modified our philosphy for Ball.

But you don't agree with the philosophy anyway so therefore anything Lyon would have done would have been wrong because ultimately Ball left.

I don't agree with your pov - I think his structures based philosophy has served us very well over the past few years and yes, we ultiately fell agonizingly short.

But I believe that we would not have even made the GF without that philospohy.

And absolutely no doutt in my mind that Collingwood 'rolled' us in the Ball trade.

Do you accept any possibility that after the trade didn't go through the Club felt they may convince him to stay?
I do.
I think they genuinely felt that like O'Keefe at the Swans they could turn his thinking around.

That's why I think they didn't want to take any player/draft pick that Collingwood were offering.

[faircatfan]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Tough call to a degree, just missed on 2 flags, PERHAPS though, particularly this year he should have realised that the style of game and players playing to that plan, had its "best chance" and didnt quite make it. I would imagine its hard to change your "plan/style", after you have such a belief in it.

[Mr Magic]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

You see Stinger, I cannot accept much of this.
I don't believe that Ross Lyon, or any AFL caoch, would deliberately pick a plyer knowing he had a better option.
Coaches may love certain players (who wouldn't love Lenny?) but I don't believe they would jeopardize a game just to pick a 'favourite'.

As for the oft misquoted Lyon comments about Ball's availability in the second half, I think the actual comments were 'maybe' he could have played a further 6 minutes.
My understanding from reading Misson's book and from hearing things elsewhere was that the plan was always to play Ball for an ectended period in the first half, when the game was the hottest and his skills could be utilized most.
They apparently believed he couldn't play optimumly for more than they allocated him.
Maybe they were wrong - we'll never know what he could have produced because they elected not to put him back on the field more.

As for GT being the caoch, who knows who would still be playing and who wouldn't.
We know for sure that Milne would have been gone. Would we be seeing similar vitriol towards GT over that as we are seeing towards Lyon over Ball?

As for playing the younger kids, IIRC, GT didn't mind trading draft picks for 'recycleds' once we were in a position to challenge.
Persoanlly I don't see a problem with it - trade for today if you're in with a chance.
If you're not a chance then you develop for the future would be my philosophy.

[SaintPav]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Everyone has favourites and that's normal. Maybe he hasn't played the kids that you want him to play because they haven't shown anything in the VFL or are not good enough?

[stinger]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Tough call to a degree, just missed on 2 flags, PERHAPS though, particularly this year he should have realised that the style of game and players playing to that plan, had its "best chance" and didnt quite make it. I would imagine its hard to change your "plan/style", after you have such a belief in it.

yep...tough call...but we might have just jagged a couple of flags if he and the club had selected kids instead of cast offs in earlier drafts...an then played them....

our bottom 4 to 6 have been crap for years....


i've just been watching a tough hard at it irish kid tearing it up in the afl.....pity is that he's a scummer..not a sainter.....what could tommy walsh achieve given half a chance.....because he is f****** more talented than the carscum kid....

[stinger]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Everyone has favourites and that's normal. Maybe he hasn't played the kids that you want him to play because they haven't shown anything in the VFL or are not good enough?

don't think so...walsh and lynch are definitely afl standard players.......so are armo and steven.....and look how long it took to give them a fair go.....

i don't care which ones he plays...just that he plays someone......instead of the hacks and has-beens that he continues to play.......and recruit....

[saint tash]

Can we include Kozi in the bottom 4 - 6 and if not why not?

Excuse?

Our bottom 4-6 IMO would be Mini, Geary, Polo, Raph, Gamble and Gardi (injury aside).

I base this on what they can bring to the future.

[faircatfan]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Tough call to a degree, just missed on 2 flags, PERHAPS though, particularly this year he should have realised that the style of game and players playing to that plan, had its "best chance" and didnt quite make it. I would imagine its hard to change your "plan/style", after you have such a belief in it.

yep...tough call...but we might have just jagged a couple of flags if he and the club had selected kids instead of cast offs in earlier drafts...an then played them....

our bottom 4 to 6 have been crap for years....


i've just been watching a tough hard at it irish kid tearing it up in the afl.....pity is that he's a scummer..not a sainter.....what could tommy walsh achieve given half a chance.....because he is f****** more talented than the carscum kid....

Hindsight is a marvellous thing though. I agree re your bottom 4 to 6, though i reckon Lyon based his game on a particluar sytle rather than out and out skill ( and it nearly came off). NOW that it has failed (marginally) its easy to think about the "last 4 to 6".

[faircatfan]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Tough call to a degree, just missed on 2 flags, PERHAPS though, particularly this year he should have realised that the style of game and players playing to that plan, had its "best chance" and didnt quite make it. I would imagine its hard to change your "plan/style", after you have such a belief in it.

yep...tough call...but we might have just jagged a couple of flags if he and the club had selected kids instead of cast offs in earlier drafts...an then played them....

our bottom 4 to 6 have been crap for years....


i've just been watching a tough hard at it irish kid tearing it up in the afl.....pity is that he's a scummer..not a sainter.....what could tommy walsh achieve given half a chance.....because he is f****** more talented than the carscum kid....

Hindsight is a marvellous thing though. I agree re your bottom 4 to 6, though i reckon Lyon based his game on a particluar sytle rather than out and out skill ( and it nearly came off). NOW that it has failed (marginally) its easy to think about the "last 4 to 6".

[stinger]

yeah.......i heard you the first time

[SaintPav]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did.....

Everyone has favourites and that's normal. Maybe he hasn't played the kids that you want him to play because they haven't shown anything in the VFL or are not good enough?

don't think so...walsh and lynch are definitely afl standard players.......so are armo and steven.....and look how long it took to give them a fair go.....

i don't care which ones he plays...just that he plays someone......instead of the hacks and has-beens that he continues to play.......and recruit....

How do we know that Walsh is AFL standard? I hope he is but he hasn't played a game.

We'll soon find out if Lynch is any good over the coming weeks.

Armo and Steven would have played more last year but got injured and were not fit enough in the finals. I'm sure you know that Stinger.

[Johnny Member]

Certainly.

But how does one judge if a coach, player, administrator, boot-studder or anybody else has actually made a mistake or not?
Surely to do that you would need some actual knowledge about what they've done and why?

Otherwise the criticism is pure conjecture, which is also fine.

What I object to continually is when this 'conjecture' is portrayed by some as 'knowledge' on their behalf.

When clearly it is not.

Yeah, but come on man. This is a footy forum. If you cruise around in here pulling people up on anything and everything - you'll go mental!

If someone thinks someone has done something good, bad or indifferent - this is precisely the place to express.

It's exactly what this thing is for.


Some people on here are deadset madmen! But on a forum, they're as entitled as anyone to express their views.

I read stuff from both sides of the fence, and aren't sure whether it's fact, fiction or opinion.

[Johnny Member]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

A coach though, like any Manager, will lean towards people who share his view and carry out his orders to effect.

All coaches have their favourites. That's why most clubs have a Coaches Award every year!

It's for guys who do what they're told, and do it all the time.


Ross Lyon would definitely have his favourites players, as I'm sure GT did too! All coaches do.
It's not unprofessional though. It's totally normal and understandable. Although on a weekly basis, the average supporter won't understand what it is that a coach sees in a certain player.

[Mr Magic]

Certainly.

But how does one judge if a coach, player, administrator, boot-studder or anybody else has actually made a mistake or not?
Surely to do that you would need some actual knowledge about what they've done and why?

Otherwise the criticism is pure conjecture, which is also fine.

What I object to continually is when this 'conjecture' is portrayed by some as 'knowledge' on their behalf.

When clearly it is not.

Yeah, but come on man. This is a footy forum. If you cruise around in here pulling people up on anything and everything - you'll go mental!

If someone thinks someone has done something good, bad or indifferent - this is precisely the place to express.

It's exactly what this thing is for.


Some people on here are deadset madmen! But on a forum, they're as entitled as anyone to express their views.

I read stuff from both sides of the fence, and aren't sure whether it's fact, fiction or opinion.

And that's all fine.
I'm as entitled to my view as anybody else.

But I just feel that some protray their views as facts and every so often I like to remind them that they know as much as me and most everyone else - didlly.

[SainterK]

To be honest, what puzzles me is why you would offer a bloke that has so many limitations in his athletic ability (according to Misson's book) and his skill level, so much money! Did we really put $1m over 3 years on the table for him?

Because they knew he was capable of better?

Which is also why he was dropped.

Clean bill of health from 2007, yet compare what he produced for St Kilda compared to Collingwood.

The fact the coaching staff expected better, totally justified.

That they expected him to knuckle down and work harder, totally wrong.

But why would he suddenly work harder for Collingwood?

This is when it is my opinion S43.

Collingwood accomodated Luke as he was, St Kilda asked him to work on things.

So he went for the fit, rather than fitting in.

It happens.

I think that's right too. Given my current workplace talking to me about what I couldn't do and offering bigger money to others, and someone else offering more money as I am I would probably leave my job as well.

Sure.

No argument from me.

Can you tell me why he didn't play well for a couple of years at St Kilda though, do you honestly believe he was beyond being dropped?

He surely isn't the first player to be told that he has things to work on?

[BigMart]

Who is arguing that he did not leave for money.....of course he did, he was offered a 40% pay cut.....and was getting limited opportunities to prove his worth....

Collingwood offered him what he wanted, what fool would turn down that deal???

"yeah, i'll stay for less money and less game time to please others"

The issue is the poor managing of getting us compensation in tne deal......pick 30, wellingham, goldsack, pick 46, whoever really.....at least something......

If we wanted to really annoy collingwood.....trade for slightly worse pick at another club....ie, pick 32 melbourne

[SainterK]

to me mm ..it's just a case of the way ross works.....if thomas was still the coach, ball would still be a sainter...ross states that he loves all his players...but he does play favorites...always has...always will.....that's just him......lot of the younger ones haven't been given a fair deal either.....

....other clubs play their kids...and the kids have repaid their clubs for their faith in them.....this year there are dozens of young kids staring.....none of them sainters...ross prefers cast offs from other clubs who have more mature bodies...but less talent....he is his master's (roos) servant alright.....sad really.....we f***ed up.....well, the club did....

Like Dempster right? Yet he has proven he deserved the faith of his coach, though so many people (I'm not sure if you were one of them, but you'd be honest enough to admit if you were) said he just a spot in the side because he was Ross Lyon's 'love child'

Like Eddy, who if you look at his games in 2009, most of them just happened to be place of Armo, not as well as. Even Armo himself can admit he is a realist, and injury has kept him out, and then fitness in the finals. Eddy wouldn't of played otherwise, I am very confident of that.

walsh and lynch are definitely afl standard players.......so are armo and steven.....and look how long it took to give them a fair go.....

i don't care which ones he plays...just that he plays someone......instead of the hacks and has-beens that he continues to play.......and recruit....

Walsh will get his go, Lynch has done so and only a finger injury forced him back out again.

Once again Armo can admit the real reasons he was out of the side, and Steven has had OP. Have you taken note how his TOG has slowly increased this year as he is nursed back into senior footy? I actually love that the club won't be rushed to satisfy the media or the likes of some supporters, why repeat club mistakes from times past.

May surprise you, but I reckon Dave has more of a say when the newbies play than Ross, especially the first years.

Finally in closing, if you think Ross recruited as he did for any other reason than to do all he could to win this club it's second premiership, then he is never going to impress you Stinger. It's not like he is obsessed with poking through other clubs hard rubbish, he was trying to piece together a list that could deliver a flag while he had the likes of Roo, BJ, Dal, Fisher, Joey at his disposal.

This year he picked up four kids that look the goods, and took Gamble with pick 96, and Polo at 103. Both players have proved important as the likes of Ledger, Siposs and Cripps have been eased into senior footy, especially Polo in the absence of Lenny.

Just be honest Stinger, you don't care for him, he hasn't endeared himself to you? At least I won't feel the need to respond again should a discussion head this way again, knowing your mind is already convinced otherwise.

[Sainternist]

Thread should have been created in Opposition & General Sports Discussion.

Surely this topic has run its full course? Or has it?

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Like Dempster right? Yet he has proven he deserved the faith of his coach, though so many people (I'm not sure if you were one of them, but you'd be honest enough to admit if you were) said he just a spot in the side because he was Ross Lyon's 'love child'

I'm one of those who believe that Dempster was getting a lot of games when he wasn't the best option (a couple of years ago) and that it was most likely because Ross had a "man-crush" on him (and Schneider as well, who was getting games a few years ago when about every 6 weeks he would play a decent quarter or two). If they hadn't come with him from Sydney I very, very much doubt doubt they would have gotten anywhere near as many opportunities over the years (at times when they were having very little impact).
Sure they've both eventually repaid the faith Ross placed in them, but that's the thing some probably have a problem with. He gave them opportunity, after opportunity, after opportunity, so unless they were absolutely hopeless they would eventually start playing some good footy. Some of us just wish he would give the likes of Lynch about a quarter of the opportunities he gave the likes of those two.

[BigMart]

No