Go the tank

[St Nick]

Con G said, "besides finishing low - how do you propose we get high quality talent in to the club?"
There is an opportunity this year with the four 17yr old that GWS are allowed to swap with other clubs.

What does St kilda have that GWS would want and agree to the swap?? Please tell!!!!!!

[Dr Spaceman]

Just maybe WCE were no good last year due to injury and form and that is the reason they are going well this year because of less injuries and better form. I dont see why any club would tank when only 8 points out of the 8 when there are so many games left. A loss this week may change that thinking though.

I was just waiting to hear from the plug man! you always ask me "how is finishing 15th better than 8th?"

i have a question for you plug.

besides finishing low - how do you propose we get high quality talent in to the club?

I would also ask

How are we going to make a call on fringe players like Winmar, Smith, Lynch, Walsh, Cahill, Johnson who havent been afforded many opportunities?

Or do you propose we just de-list them all and hang on to more seasoned veterans again for 2012? Bottoming out isnt just about finishing low - its about experimenting with what you have.

I agree whole heartedly with you Con. I have always said this (under a different nic ) but always been shouted down and then banned.

The Swans are a perfect example. After their successive Grand Finals (2005 and 2006), they have basically kept on making the top 8 but they are not a contender. Honourable finishes will get them nowhere. Whereas West Coast (their opponent in those successive GF's), plummeted down the ladder (unlike the Swans), got a host of early draft picks, traded Judd and got Kennedy and 2 more early draft picks. All of a sudden you can see the Eagles winning more silverware in the next 4 years.

St Kilda need to take note of this (they won't though). They have to get rid of (I won't name them.....no point) and play all the youngsters. This will (1) get the youngsters up to 50 games experience as soon as possible, (2) ensure we finish in the bottom 4 and pick up high draft picks.

There is no other way!!! FFS.

This is effectively what we did in 2000, 2001 and 2002 however it wasn't planned. It was due to our own crapness that we were down there in the first place.

I don't believe we should ever tank but I accept that it is nonetheless a legitimate point of view to have.

Seriously, you got banned for suggesting the club tank, and there were no other influencing factors? Really?

[dragit]

Con G said, "besides finishing low - how do you propose we get high quality talent in to the club?"
There is an opportunity this year with the four 17yr old that GWS are allowed to swap with other clubs.

What does St kilda have that GWS would want and agree to the swap?? Please tell!!!!!!

Do you roll your eyes at people in real life?
Do people punch you in the face a lot?

[terry smith rules]

I think some you have way under rated the Swans

Yes they have not challenged in the last two years but they are still a potential force

Everyone is talking about injuries and their impact and no-one has mentioned the swans

This year they have lost Craig Bolton (AA) 2 years ago and Bradshaw (yes old but would have still been pencilled in for 40-50 goals pre-season)

Put those two into their team and they would be stronger.

They also have two of the best young mid fielders in the comp in Jack and Hanneberry, quality ruckman, they recruit brilliantly , they have some future

[St Nick]

I think some you have way under rated the Swans

Yes they have not challenged in the last two years but they are still a potential force

Everyone is talking about injuries and their impact and no-one has mentioned the swans

This year they have lost Craig Bolton (AA) 2 years ago and Bradshaw (yes old but would have still been pencilled in for 40-50 goals pre-season)

Put those two into their team and they would be stronger.

They also have two of the best young mid fielders in the comp in Jack and Hanneberry, quality ruckman, they recruit brilliantly , they have some future

They will continue to finish mid table with no hope of winning a flag.

[Rosco]

the way i see it that the senior guys (e.g. roo, fish, joey, goddard, dal and a few others) might only have one more crack at it.

if we don't play kids this year then this year is the senior guys only chance - and it is very slim at the moment. we may still make the 8 but would have to win 4 finals including an elimination final in perth / sydney. prefer option 2, which is to play the kids, still try to win but if we don't make the finals no big worry. draft picks aren't going to be plentiful this year (so no point in tanking) but we can find out how good the kids might be, and we can use the picks we do get on the gaps the club perceives at the end of the year. armed with the info gleaned by playing the kids.

three years from now our current stars (as listed above) will be 29-31 and ok for one or two last goes round. mcevoy should be near his peak, steven hopefully keeps coming on, gwilt will be a star, and if the current kids come on alright then they will be 23ish (hopefully resulting in a couple of mids and at least one key back and one fwd good enough to hold a spot). if we pick up some new youngsters this year then we can have another tilt. the club will know in 18-24 months whether the current crop of youngsters will come on, so can re-assess and move on there.

goddard must not be traded. gram / gilbert should be if there is anything worthwhile offered, less likely for gram. gilbert needs to be given the chance to show something, but might benefit from a stint in the twos.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think some you have way under rated the Swans

Yes they have not challenged in the last two years but they are still a potential force

Everyone is talking about injuries and their impact and no-one has mentioned the swans

This year they have lost Craig Bolton (AA) 2 years ago and Bradshaw (yes old but would have still been pencilled in for 40-50 goals pre-season)

Put those two into their team and they would be stronger.

They also have two of the best young mid fielders in the comp in Jack and Hanneberry, quality ruckman, they recruit brilliantly , they have some future

They will continue to finish mid table with no hope of winning a flag.

They have been admirable and have got some good kids. But they will lose Jude Bolton and Goodesy. Both greats of the game. So I expect them to be stuck mid table.

[plugger66]

Just maybe WCE were no good last year due to injury and form and that is the reason they are going well this year because of less injuries and better form. I dont see why any club would tank when only 8 points out of the 8 when there are so many games left. A loss this week may change that thinking though.

I was just waiting to hear from the plug man! you always ask me "how is finishing 15th better than 8th?"

i have a question for you plug.

besides finishing low - how do you propose we get high quality talent in to the club?

I would also ask

How are we going to make a call on fringe players like Winmar, Smith, Lynch, Walsh, Cahill, Johnson who havent been afforded many opportunities?

Or do you propose we just de-list them all and hang on to more seasoned veterans again for 2012? Bottoming out isnt just about finishing low - its about experimenting with what you have.

I agree whole heartedly with you Con. I have always said this (under a different nic ) but always been shouted down and then banned.

The Swans are a perfect example. After their successive Grand Finals (2005 and 2006), they have basically kept on making the top 8 but they are not a contender. Honourable finishes will get them nowhere. Whereas West Coast (their opponent in those successive GF's), plummeted down the ladder (unlike the Swans), got a host of early draft picks, traded Judd and got Kennedy and 2 more early draft picks. All of a sudden you can see the Eagles winning more silverware in the next 4 years.

St Kilda need to take note of this (they won't though). They have to get rid of (I won't name them.....no point) and play all the youngsters. This will (1) get the youngsters up to 50 games experience as soon as possible, (2) ensure we finish in the bottom 4 and pick up high draft picks.

There is no other way!!! FFS.

This is effectively what we did in 2000, 2001 and 2002 however it wasn't planned. It was due to our own crapness that we were down there in the first place.

Really you got banned. Well knock me down with a feather.
Anyway back to the topic. Dont want to at least see how the year pans out? We may still make the finals and no we cant win a flag but finals is finals. Pick 15 or pick 8, not much difference. Have to be lucky wither pick and unless you get a champion I dont think either pick will help us up the ladder to much. Trading a star may but if they dont want to go forcing them isnt great for team morale. Lets just try win as many games as possible and give kids that deserve a game a chance to show what they have.

[White Winmar]

That's a pretty sharp analysis of the way the cats have used the Father/Son rule, dragit. I agree with you to an extent about it helping them shuffle up the order of their picks, but you have to admit their recruiting, development and strategies have bee impressive, nonetheless. On the weekend they were able to make seven changes and they hardly missed a beat. Only 13 of their last premiership side were playing, so that's a very impressive turnover rate, considering their success.

Just look at who they've recruited and developed in the post father/son period. Vardy, T. Hunt, Mitch Brown, Christiansen, Motlop, Duncan, Menzel, Simpson and Podsiadly (I've no doubt missed a few others). All of them look like being senior players of reasonable quality, and with the exception of Pods, they should all be around for a while. They are, without doubt, the next generation.

One of the keys to their success has undoubtedly been their Recruiting Manager, Stephen Wells. His track record suggests he is just about the best in the business. I know they've had some luck, but they have used their resources wisely. If tanking and early draft picks were all you needed to get up the ladder and win a flag, surely Fremantle and Richmond would've saluted by now.

[Dr Spaceman]

That's a pretty sharp analysis of the way the cats have used the Father/Son rule, dragit. I agree with you to an extent about it helping them shuffle up the order of their picks, but you have to admit their recruiting, development and strategies have bee impressive, nonetheless. On the weekend they were able to make seven changes and they hardly missed a beat. Only 13 of their last premiership side were playing, so that's a very impressive turnover rate, considering their success.

Just look at who they've recruited and developed in the post father/son period. Vardy, T. Hunt, Mitch Brown, Christiansen, Motlop, Duncan, Menzel, Simpson and Podsiadly (I've no doubt missed a few others). All of them look like being senior players of reasonable quality, and with the exception of Pods, they should all be around for a while. They are, without doubt, the next generation.

One of the keys to their success has undoubtedly been their Recruiting Manager, Stephen Wells. His track record suggests he is just about the best in the business. I know they've had some luck, but they have used their resources wisely. If tanking and early draft picks were all you needed to get up the ladder and win a flag, surely Fremantle and Richmond would've saluted by now.

Worked for Hawthorn but

[White Winmar]

Still had to make good calls and develop the talent, Dr. S. I believe that tanking and early draft picks are no guarantee of success, e.g The Tigers could've got Buddy, but they chose Tambling, amongst a multitude of other recruiting sins. Better to have good recruitment staff and methods, and the development coaches to complement them, rather than just relying on tanking and early picks. That's all I'm saying.

[Con Gorozidis]

That's a pretty sharp analysis of the way the cats have used the Father/Son rule, dragit. I agree with you to an extent about it helping them shuffle up the order of their picks, but you have to admit their recruiting, development and strategies have bee impressive, nonetheless. On the weekend they were able to make seven changes and they hardly missed a beat. Only 13 of their last premiership side were playing, so that's a very impressive turnover rate, considering their success.

Just look at who they've recruited and developed in the post father/son period. Vardy, T. Hunt, Mitch Brown, Christiansen, Motlop, Duncan, Menzel, Simpson and Podsiadly (I've no doubt missed a few others). All of them look like being senior players of reasonable quality, and with the exception of Pods, they should all be around for a while. They are, without doubt, the next generation.

One of the keys to their success has undoubtedly been their Recruiting Manager, Stephen Wells. His track record suggests he is just about the best in the business. I know they've had some luck, but they have used their resources wisely. If tanking and early draft picks were all you needed to get up the ladder and win a flag, surely Fremantle and Richmond would've saluted by now.

Worked for Hawthorn but

Dont Richmond finish 9th ever year? They should have tanked more. Too many 9th finishes is just a road to nowhere.

Clearly the draft isnt an exact science. But it does help your chances.

[dragit]

Father-son rule aside, Geelong have drafted extremely well and to be honest it isn't their fault that the Father-son rule was so loose. Good on them really, would rather see them in 3 consecutive GF's than about 14 other sides, our recent close GF losses has highlighted for me how bad it must have been for them in them 80's/90's.
Tanking is only good these days if it is over a sustained period, Carlton are still improving and Melbourne's best players are still very young, but both could become benchmark sides IMO.
Since the priority pick rules have changed (the dale thomas rule) you need to have at least 2 terrible years to get a big advantage (a pick before the draft), which is no good for us at the moment having a bunch of very good players at their peak… If it really is time to tank then we'd probably also need to trade a couple of stars, otherwise we would probably risk winning too many games to qualify for drafting concessions…

[St Nick]

Like I said in a previous post, the foundations of St kilda's "era" were laid in 2000, 2001 amd 2002. It wasn't a deliberate tank but it served its purpose. We got 2 priority picks in that time, both before round 1. And if it hadn't have been for Wolf (I think that was his name), hitting the post and drawing the game against Sydney, we would have also got a priority pick in 2002 as well. I still remember it clearly when we got that draw. It took us up to 22 points, 2 points over the threshold of 5 wins. I think there were 6 games to go in the season. I remember saying that I hope we win at least 3 more games or else we have just thrown away a priority pick. Yep, you guessed it, we did not win another game. I was spewing.

[meher baba]

That's a pretty sharp analysis of the way the cats have used the Father/Son rule, dragit. I agree with you to an extent about it helping them shuffle up the order of their picks, but you have to admit their recruiting, development and strategies have bee impressive, nonetheless. On the weekend they were able to make seven changes and they hardly missed a beat. Only 13 of their last premiership side were playing, so that's a very impressive turnover rate, considering their success.

Just look at who they've recruited and developed in the post father/son period. Vardy, T. Hunt, Mitch Brown, Christiansen, Motlop, Duncan, Menzel, Simpson and Podsiadly (I've no doubt missed a few others). All of them look like being senior players of reasonable quality, and with the exception of Pods, they should all be around for a while. They are, without doubt, the next generation.

One of the keys to their success has undoubtedly been their Recruiting Manager, Stephen Wells. His track record suggests he is just about the best in the business. I know they've had some luck, but they have used their resources wisely. If tanking and early draft picks were all you needed to get up the ladder and win a flag, surely Fremantle and Richmond would've saluted by now.

Worked for Hawthorn but

Hawthorn actually blew a few of the draft picks they got through tanking. As I recall it, they did their best work with the draft picks they got from trading dud/troubled players to other clubs such as the Roos.

[St Nick]

I'd like to also add that teams that tank now need to spend 4 years in the bottom 4 to really clean up on high Draft Picks. During those 4 years they would also need to trade an aging champion (ideally he would be no older than 29 so as to still be young enough for another team challenging) for 2 top 15 draft picks.

Thats is how you re-build IMHO.

[dragit]

Like I said in a previous post, the foundations of St kilda's "era" were laid in 2000, 2001 amd 2002. It wasn't a deliberate tank but it served its purpose. We got 2 priority picks in that time, both before round 1. And if it hadn't have been for Wolf (I think that was his name), hitting the post and drawing the game against Sydney, we would have also got a priority pick in 2002 as well. I still remember it clearly when we got that draw. It took us up to 22 points, 2 points over the threshold of 5 wins. I think there were 6 games to go in the season. I remember saying that I hope we win at least 3 more games or else we have just thrown away a priority pick. Yep, you guessed it, we did not win another game. I was spewing.

That was round 5, we won 4 more games after that…

[St Nick]

Like I said in a previous post, the foundations of St kilda's "era" were laid in 2000, 2001 amd 2002. It wasn't a deliberate tank but it served its purpose. We got 2 priority picks in that time, both before round 1. And if it hadn't have been for Wolf (I think that was his name), hitting the post and drawing the game against Sydney, we would have also got a priority pick in 2002 as well. I still remember it clearly when we got that draw. It took us up to 22 points, 2 points over the threshold of 5 wins. I think there were 6 games to go in the season. I remember saying that I hope we win at least 3 more games or else we have just thrown away a priority pick. Yep, you guessed it, we did not win another game. I was spewing.

That was round 5, we won 4 more games after that…

Oh yeah, that's right. I must have thought the above when we one our last game, which took us to 22 points. When we didn't win another game in the last 6 rounds I blamed Wolf (or is it Wulf) for kicking that point which gave us that draw.

Give me a break. It has been nearly 10 years.

[dragit]

Like I said in a previous post, the foundations of St kilda's "era" were laid in 2000, 2001 amd 2002. It wasn't a deliberate tank but it served its purpose. We got 2 priority picks in that time, both before round 1. And if it hadn't have been for Wolf (I think that was his name), hitting the post and drawing the game against Sydney, we would have also got a priority pick in 2002 as well. I still remember it clearly when we got that draw. It took us up to 22 points, 2 points over the threshold of 5 wins. I think there were 6 games to go in the season. I remember saying that I hope we win at least 3 more games or else we have just thrown away a priority pick. Yep, you guessed it, we did not win another game. I was spewing.

That was round 5, we won 4 more games after that…

Oh yeah, that's right. I must have thought the above when we one our last game, which took us to 22 points. When we didn't win another game in the last 6 rounds I blamed Wolf (or is it Wulf) for kicking that point which gave us that draw.

Give me aq break. It has been nearly 10 years.

We still ended up with pick#1 Goddard, also had pick #6 which we wasted on baz brooks…
I'll give you a break when you stop creating threads about throwing our last 10 matches for pick 30 & giving away Riewoldt for picks 9 & 30…
Sure you don't wanna meet up with some fellow sainters?

[kosifantutti23]

This weekend really showed me the value of the tank. A few seasons back everyone was saying the Swans and the Crows were two teams that didnt believe in "bottoming out" and how good and consistent they were.
But seriously who would want to be either of those teams? They have no serious prospects of challenging for a flag in the next decade.

Then look at the Eagles - the true masters of the tank. They win a flag then bottom out completely to pick up talent. Then hey presto - they turn it back on again - Look at guys like Cox and Embley who had 2 down years. And now they have Shuey, Darling and the Nat man running around. I dont think there is any other way (apart from complete fluke) of getting decent new talent without really bottoming out. Thats why Id prefer we finished 13th or 14th this year rather than finished an "honest" 9th. Who know what opportunity will present itself with 2 early picks?

And the Saints need to give proper senior game time to 2nd year fringe guys like Lynch, Cahill, Winmar, Smith and Johnson before we make decisions about the 2012 playing list. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a lottery.

Shuey was pick 18, Darling pick 26. What's that got to do with tanking?

[mad saint guy]

We won't get any top shelf draft picks from truly tanking, but I do think it is time to start picking teams for next year. This may or may not mean that we lose a couple more games and get a slightly higher draft pick, but the real value is getting games into the kids and seeing who will cut it and who won't.

So I don't think we should be playing rookies ahead of quality senior players for the rest of the year to lose games and get draft picks, but we have to stop trying to save games against ordinary opposition by going for experience over youth. Get some serious time into Siposs, Ledger, Lynch, Stanley, Walsh, Smith and Archer and also give Winmar, Heyne and Cahill a chance to show something. It is time for an overhaul of the selection process.

[Griggsy]

Much rather 5 years not contending to become a chance than more years lingering middle of the table knowing it is going nowhere. And after those years the team may still have to bottom out for years!

[plugger66]

We won't get any top shelf draft picks from truly tanking, but I do think it is time to start picking teams for next year. This may or may not mean that we lose a couple more games and get a slightly higher draft pick, but the real value is getting games into the kids and seeing who will cut it and who won't.

So I don't think we should be playing rookies ahead of quality senior players for the rest of the year to lose games and get draft picks, but we have to stop trying to save games against ordinary opposition by going for experience over youth. Get some serious time into Siposs, Ledger, Lynch, Stanley, Walsh, Smith and Archer and also give Winmar, Heyne and Cahill a chance to show something. It is time for an overhaul of the selection process.

If guys deserve a game then give it to them but I fail to see what Archer, Cahill, Stanley and heyne have done probably over the last 6 weeks to get a game. A few young guys can play but you dont gives away just because they are young. Gives the wrong impression. I would think that if Blake is injured this week then either Walsh or Johnson would play, personally I would go with Walsh because I dont think Johnson is a marking type forward and i think Ledger will play for Clarke. Unlike many here including you I think Gram should still play this week and so i only see 2 changes which is about the right number of young guys to come in each week.

[asiu]

There is an opportunity this year with the four 17yr old that GWS are allowed to swap with other clubs.

i agree
tank and trade

but then tanking was the right decision before pre-season.



oh yea ... hello helen/st nexus.

[Sainternist]

Do you honestly think teams deliberatly "tank" games for draft picks?

There is no concrete evidence of this happening. Teams finish in low positions because of poor performances over the course of the season, plain and simple.