our drafting vs hawthorns

[jmac101]

Sitting back watching the hawks destroy the bombers through sublime kicking skills.

As a team that has had relatively similar success to us, its crazy that so many kids/younger players (savage, shiels, smith, suckling) can have such an impact.

Seems like clarkson had a bit of a plan as to the kids he drafted - everyone of them are wonderful kicks. a bit like billy beane in moneyball i reckon. placing a premium on great kicking skills and build a game plan around that.

i live interstate so don't get to as many games as I would like. other than siposs - a great kick in my opinion - what are our newer draftees like with their kicking skills?

[noreason41]

Sitting back watching the hawks destroy the bombers through sublime kicking skills.

As a team that has had relatively similar success to us, its crazy that so many kids/younger players (savage, shiels, smith, suckling) can have such an impact.

Seems like clarkson had a bit of a plan as to the kids he drafted - everyone of them are wonderful kicks. a bit like billy beane in moneyball i reckon. placing a premium on great kicking skills and build a game plan around that.

i live interstate so don't get to as many games as I would like. other than siposs - a great kick in my opinion - what are our newer draftees like with their kicking skills?

I actually thought our recruiting was more indicative of 'moneyball'.

ie; recruiting players with flaws that other clubs overlook

[ralphsmith]

I want to see more of winmars kicking.

Sippos looks good so far.

The others, no idea if they can kick.

[BigMart]

Crocker is a good kick.....ledger ok......andreoli ok

[Legendary]

More Pelchen than Clarkson ... it is one of Pelchen's non-negotiables when recruiting (footskills).

[White Winmar]

Kicking is what it's all about now. If you go to the draft camp and fare poorly in the kicking skills test, you're really harming your chances. Kicking is the "new" pace. In Crocker and Siposs, we've got a couple of beauties. Cripps and Ledger are pretty good as well. Still makes me shake my head that we drafted Polo, seeing as Richmond delisted him because he couldn't consistently hit targets by foot.

[saint66au]

Watching Hawthorns kids run rampant tonight made me sure of one thing.

Our group of Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Lynch, Cahill, Winmar..at least two of them have to fire and DEMAND a regular place in our side next year..or our slide down the ladder will continue. A team in our position and lack of depth just cannot afford the luxury of six 3rd and 4th year players treading water at Sandringham and showing nothing when given a senior chance, or not even doing enough to earn one

This year has shown that if too many of our A listers are down on form, we cant carry them. Look at Hawthorn. THeir two big forwards and a swag of automatic selections not even on the park and they kick 23 goals against a fellow Top 8 side.

It might seem harsh, but its time the group above had thye blowtorch put on them. Our 2010 draft crop look good, but why should they have to leapfrog them? To do so would be to fairly irrrevocably admit we had a couple of years of really poor drafting.

If those 5 are still fringe players this time next year..i fear for our 2013-2015 Im afraid.

[saintsRrising]

More Pelchen than Clarkson ... it is one of Pelchen's non-negotiables when recruiting (footskills).

Indeed...and it was all written up post the Hawks winning the flag.

It is also why they have so many left-footers as their research showed that on average that left footers are better kicks.

Meanwhile JB at the saints was picking the players his "guts" said were good footballers and by and large he chose players that other recruiting mangers rejected.

End result is that while they may have other abilities tat we have the worst kicking list in the competition.


This is made worse now, as with the way the game us evolved good kicking is more important than ever....as the presses make it vital to move the ball precisely and not turn it over.

And if the opposition does turn it over...if you have good footskills you can move the ball quickly with good kicks to your players who are free and score. This is why the Cats defeated us last week. We won the ball better..but turn it over with poor kicks...and then they scored with good kicks.

They did not need to win the ball....as we fed them!!!!!!!!!!

[tweedaletomanning]

Funny thing about the OP, i was thinking about starting a thread comparing our drafting to Geelongs..

Looks like compared to both it's pretty ordinary.

Oh well we can only hope...

Nice to have kids with potential, but are they BETTER than other club's kids?

We'll have to wait and see...

[saintsRrising]

Nice to have kids with potential, but are they BETTER than other club's kids?

We'll have to wait and see...

I think one only has to look at last years crop of kids that we got, where we at last got tings right, to realise how badly we have been at drafting talented youth for so long.

Our relative success at using recycled players (moneyball) has papered over the cracks about our kids by and large being what below what the best clubs were doing.

[Con Gorozidis]

i think winmar scored high in kicking.

but its what gets valued at the club when u train that counts.
lets face facts, Rl is all about roles and defensive skills (yes r eddy played 2 grand finals people).

but we have no idea how to train someone to kick a goal.

[Con Gorozidis]

i think winmar scored high in kicking.

but its what gets valued at the club when u train that counts.
lets face facts, Rl is all about roles and defensive skills (yes r eddy played 2 grand finals people).

but we have no idea how to train someone to kick a goal.

[Mr Magic]

My memory may be failing me?

Didn't we in 2009, when our confidence was up, go into a game against a relatively full-strength Hawthorn in Launceston without 8 of our starting 18?

I'm pretty certain that on that day we played a few debutants and a whole swag of lesser lights. Much like Hawthorn last night.

Good kicking skills are great but sometimes confidence and self-belief can make players look good (or even better than tehy actually are?).

[spert]

Kids normally do a lot better coming into a team where the experienced players are also doing well and are showing lots of leadership- contrast the Hawks to us where our experienced players are running around just doing enough and never breaking out of a slow trot.

[ace]

i think winmar scored high in kicking.

but its what gets valued at the club when u train that counts.
lets face facts, Rl is all about roles and defensive skills (yes r eddy played 2 grand finals people).

but we have no idea how to train someone to kick a goal.

Riewoldt still rotates his upper body backwards as his foot comes forward to hit the ball.
Result his head is in motion away from the ball.
Surprise, he kicks heaps of behinds.
Nothing to do with yips, everything to do with technique.

No attempt to change his technique has been made in over 10 years.
No skills improvement.


All credit to Ross Lyon he has taken a collection of skilless players to the final match of the season two years running.
He achieved that through superior coaching.
Now the other coaches have copied and a giving unto the Saints as they gave unto them.
Only they are now giving unto the Saints with far more skill.

[InkerSaint]

Watching Hawthorns kids run rampant tonight made me sure of one thing.

Our group of Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Lynch, Cahill, Winmar..at least two of them have to fire and DEMAND a regular place in our side next year..or our slide down the ladder will continue. A team in our position and lack of depth just cannot afford the luxury of six 3rd and 4th year players treading water at Sandringham and showing nothing when given a senior chance, or not even doing enough to earn one

I agree, and I have put the blowtorch on the class of 08 elsewhere. The frustrating thing is they all have great tools, it's the application that's been questionable.

If those 5 are still fringe players this time next year..i fear for our 2013-2015 Im afraid.

Either way - get ready for the drop.

You can't have a bunch of seniors exit the side in a short space of time and not suffer. With 10 regular-22 players aged 27 and 28 that's exactly what's going to happen. It will be the same with Geelong, I don't care how good their kids are. For all the talk about them playing the kids their 50-game players under 25 are Varcoe, Selwood and Hawkins who can't currently get a spot.

That's the price of having a regular core of guys around the same age, playing year in, year out over a decade.

Hawthorn aren't too dissimilar except that they've developed a couple of players each year into regulars. They'll dip a bit when the Mitchell-Hodge generation goes but are far better equipped to reload quickly after that.

So is it drafting, or game day selection?

[Junction Oval]

Hasn't Pelchan recently/suddenly left Hawthorn?

Surely he would be worth talking to in a serious way?

[samoht]

An exceptional recruiter has 10 x more impact than an exceptional coach (if there is such a thing).

A Recruiter >>>>>>>>>>> A coach - therefore time to re-prioritise and channel more money into recruiting the best !!

[Dr Spaceman]

Hasn't Pelchan recently/suddenly left Hawthorn?

Surely he would be worth talking to in a serious way?

Perhaps I give this club more credit than it deserves.

Perhaps my glasses do have a rose hue.

But I'd be very surprised if they haven't already considered, and enquired about, Pelchan.

[Junction Oval]

They sure would be crazy if they haven't already done so Doc.

[saintsRrising]

My memory may be failing me?

Didn't we in 2009, when our confidence was up, go into a game against a relatively full-strength Hawthorn in Launceston without 8 of our starting 18?

I'm pretty certain that on that day we played a few debutants and a whole swag of lesser lights. Much like Hawthorn last night.

Good kicking skills are great but sometimes confidence and self-belief can make players look good (or even better than tehy actually are?).

I would refresh your memory about the Hawks having a relatively full-strength team. They had many out...combined with a team low on confidence.

We had more out...but were chock full of confidence.

Anyway..the game has evolved a lot since then and players like Begly that debutted for Saints in that game are no part of our future.

[Mr Magic]

My memory may be failing me?

Didn't we in 2009, when our confidence was up, go into a game against a relatively full-strength Hawthorn in Launceston without 8 of our starting 18?

I'm pretty certain that on that day we played a few debutants and a whole swag of lesser lights. Much like Hawthorn last night.

Good kicking skills are great but sometimes confidence and self-belief can make players look good (or even better than tehy actually are?).

I would refresh your memory about the Hawks having a relatively full-strength team. They had many out...combined with a team low on confidence.

We had more out...but were chock full of confidence.

Anyway..the game has evolved a lot since then and players like Begly that debutted for Saints in that game are no part of our future.

You may be right sRr, but I seem to recall that Steven also debuted that game?
And I think the media at the time were originally lambasting us for picking such an 'inexperienced' team and then glowing in their praise for our 'structures' holding up in the circumstances.

I suppose that point I was really trying to make was that sometimes the confidence of the team gives a rosier picture of some of the lesser lights within it.

Not to say that Hawthorn's lesser lights (or youngsters) are not good, just maybe they're not as good as they looked last night becasue of other factors.
Hawks were playing full of confidence.
Bombers were terrible.

[sunsaint]

My memory may be failing me?

Didn't we in 2009, when our confidence was up, go into a game against a relatively full-strength Hawthorn in Launceston without 8 of our starting 18?

I'm pretty certain that on that day we played a few debutants and a whole swag of lesser lights. Much like Hawthorn last night.

Good kicking skills are great but sometimes confidence and self-belief can make players look good (or even better than tehy actually are?).

I would refresh your memory about the Hawks having a relatively full-strength team. They had many out...combined with a team low on confidence.

We had more out...but were chock full of confidence.

Anyway..the game has evolved a lot since then and players like Begly that debutted for Saints in that game are no part of our future.

it was a great win down at aurora by "out-gunned" saints kids at the end of the '09 season
but the hawks at the end of '09 were a vastly different side to that which won the GF at the end of '08. They were already rebuilding

and those same triumphant saints kids were back in the twos the following week anyway... then got rolled by essendon

[bobmurray]

My memory may be failing me?

Didn't we in 2009, when our confidence was up, go into a game against a relatively full-strength Hawthorn in Launceston without 8 of our starting 18?

I'm pretty certain that on that day we played a few debutants and a whole swag of lesser lights. Much like Hawthorn last night.

Good kicking skills are great but sometimes confidence and self-belief can make players look good (or even better than tehy actually are?).

yes we did but we weren't much chop after that compared to the previous 18 rounds

[WinnersOnly]

We have a very poor trade & draft history as a club; which I think the administration finally recognise and have decided to alter only last year.

Farren RAY is a good example of a modern day caste off !

The Bulldogs identified early on that he couldn't hit a target and sent him away to work on it. The next thing he asks for a trade and ends up with the SAINTS.

Yes he is a goer and a good contested mark, but what beneift is winning the ball if he is just going to hand it back to the opposition? Maintaining possession is everything in the modern game when it is so hard to WIN the ball back off the opposition.

People have previously indicated that they thought he was a bargain pick up - there is an obvious reason for that !